Question to replica owners

[tryphon]

Hello,

I'm thinking of getting front and rear Group4 body panels, probably from Hawk, for my original stradale.
Now the questions:
- Are these easily obtainable? What are the delays?
- The Hawk site says they can be made in Kevlar, anyone uses these panels? How much weight is gained as compared to GRP ones?
- How are these parts shipped, as they are quite big
- Are the parts properly finished or does work (excluding paint) need to be carried out?

Anything else I didn't think of?

Thanks,
Tryphon

[chris.richard]

John Rutter and Colin Artus are the two with exotic bodies. (:D )

See alsokevlar thread (http://www.stratossupersite.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=257&highlight=kevlar)

[mogul_x]

Tryphon,

In reply to your questions:

- Are these easily obtainable?

Should be. Just give Hawk cars a ring and tell them what you want.

-What are the delays?
You'd have to ask Hawk cars for sure. When I ordered my entire kit from Gerry, it took about 7 months to take delivery, and that included a trip across the Atlantic Ocean. I'd imagine it would be a couple of months for bodywork, unless he has a set in stock.

- The Hawk site says they can be made in Kevlar, anyone uses these panels? How much weight is gained as compared to GRP ones?
You probably need to ask Hawk Cars. I don't know if anyone else has both versions to compare. Perhaps John Rutter?

- How are these parts shipped, as they are quite big
They will proabably be strapped to a pallet, wrapped in plastic, with an open wood frame above them to form a sort of crate. That's how kits are shipped, and a nose and tail panel together will be about half the size of a complete kit.

-Are the parts properly finished or does work (excluding paint) need to be carried out?
They will definitely require finishing. the quality of the gel coat is very good, but the panels don't come with any of the holes cut in them. You'll need to cut all the holes for the lamps, ventilation above the engine, etc. You'll also need to fit the trunklid, headlight doors, louvers, spoilers, etc. In addition, Hawk's panels tend to be made slightly oversized so you can set the panel gaps. There will be a fair amount of work required to align the panels and trim the edges.

-Anything else I didn't think of?Well, something to consider: If you're fitting a group 4 body to your car, you don't need to change your nose panel. The nose is identical between Stradale and Gp.4 cars. Only the front indicators and fog lamps are any different. You don't need a new nose panel, unless you are planning on mounting a rally lamp pod and don't want to drill holes in an original nose.

As for the rear, you have two options. If you fit a round arch Gp.4 panel to the rear of your car, you are also going to have to make some modifications to the car body ahead of the rear wheel arch. The body of a early Gp.4 car flares out just ahead of the wheels, so you will need to make some modifications to the steel part of you car. This will probably entail getting a piece of Early Gp.4 body tub from Hawk, cutting the areas you need out, and grafting it onto your car.

The other option is less invasive. A later style square arch can be added to the Stradale bodywork. It's a flare that attaches to the outside of the wheel arch, but doesn't require replacement of the entire rear panel. Much less time and effort, not to mention less expense. However, it would mean cutting up an original tail panel to add the flares.

Either way, you're going to need to do some cutting to the steel panel ahead of the rear wheel. This won't be easily reversible, so you might want to think on it before you start cutting up an original car.

Just my opinion, of course.

Cheers,

[colin artus]

The Kevlar rear panel will be slightly lighter than the grp but its not much difference. However, it will be a lot stronger; stifferand less prone to star cracks from stones. Because of the extra stiffness it may be more difficult to get the fit right.
The Hawk panels wont have the ribbing on the underside that the originals have - you wont miss it if you use the Kevlar panel.
Hawk will also supply the additional pieces to graft onto the tub to match the rear. If you go for the earlier round style then the tub section should be fitted flush and this will be quite a lot of work. The later square type was developed to avoid this and the additional section was simply riveted in place - crude but quick.

colin

[tryphon]

Thank you guys, spot on replies.
I'm investigating alternate routes also. I'm able to find the rear section of the Group4 bodywork in GRP but much lighter (i.e. thinner) for around 2000 euros. This is not very far off Hawk prices and delivery times seem to be much quicker.
I'm still looking into it, main reason why is that I wish to fit wider rear wheels and increase rear track width.

Thanky again,
Tryphon

[rutthenut]

I checked with Gerry (Hawk Cars) on this for you and got this reply:


We can usually fulfill orders like this within 6 to 8 weeks, however if we are busy with other work it may take a little longer, terms are money with order for any special panels.

Front section is £1095 +vat, rear section £1395 + vat, rear arches for GP4 £190 + vat Kevlar/carbon + 50%



He did also mention that if you are quick to order, he could get them started before another job that is about to commence very soon - which is likely to tie up the panel workshop for some time.

If you particularly wanted a thinner panel in GRP, he would probably be able to that for you on request. The panels on my 'other car' are in a Kevlar/Carbon-Fibre weave, but also have a thin gel-coat to reduce weight further still. Sorry, don't have actual weight figures though.

You would also need to check on whether you also wanted additional louvre panels to go with the new panels. New bootlid too, perhaps. You could obviously use your existing parts but may want complete new panels instead. That would also give you the option of bonding-in the rear louvres if you wanted to, perhaps if cutting away the section entirely from over the engine cover?

I would suggest you contact Gerry anyway if you have other requests for bodywork parts, he can be flexible for special needs, but of course anything that requires extra work will have an associated cost. The quality of the work does also come highly recommended.

He does have an agent in Germany (Fritz Philipps), if that helps at all. He has a car there at the moment, being built for a customer who has an original too. If you want to check the quality, then you might be able to visit his premises and see that car.

Hope that helps,

[tryphon]

Thanks for all the info and the time. I'm still investigating what can be done.
It was certainly my intention to also get the boot lid and louvres, maybe the rear spoiler as well that way I wouldn't have to mount/unmount them each time I went from Group 4 to Stradale.

Another question:
Is it visually "acceptable" to have the rear Group 4 section and the Stradale front one?

Thanks a million,
Tryphon

[chris.richard]

I think the group IV cars used the same nose section as the Stradale anyway. I don't think you can swap from groupIV to Stradale rear section and back again at will. Both the "round arch" and "square arch" versions have flared sections on the main body too.

[rutthenut]

There isn't any difference between the front panels used on the Stradale and Group 4 versions of the car, although there were a number of front spoilers used on different versions but not all had spoilers fitted.

There was a version for the Tour de Corse (or was it the Tour de France?) that had the spoiler faired into the front arches, so I guess that is the one you are considering?

Personally, I think the Group 4 cars look fine without a front spoiler, but the faired-in front end looks better still - albeit with possible problems of ground clearance.

The other minor panel you might want is the roof scoop that was fitted on the rally cars. Then again, that would entail cutting a hole in the steel roof of the car if fully fitted, so not something you would want to remove again if reverting to Stradale spec.

The square Group 4 arch panels could at least be rivetted to the tub (or perhaps bonded in some way?) to make for easier reversal.

Forgot about the rear spoiler, which you mentioned, but then there is also the roof spoiler to consider. Makes a bigger shopping list but allows more scope for switching parts or panels without having to dismantle your existing items.

Do you have a source for wider rear wheels already, or might you be interested in the coffin-spoke wheels being developed? That might also depend on the timescale you have in mind for the bodywork changes though.

Cheers,

[tryphon]

I have the impression the front wheel arches are bigger in Group 4 cars but I could be wrong. I'm not considering adding a front lower spoiler as I find these disgraceful. If both front sections are the same the this subject is closed.

I will go for the "square" rear arches section and will definitely need the "extensions" that will be riveted to the body.

I have already sourced a set of original front and rear Group 4 wheels (3 part speedlines) you might have seen on EBay. These are 12"x15" rears and 10"x15" fronts. I'm considering mounting the 10" wheels at the rear for the moment but have yet to check if they fit.

I'm also interested in the Campagnolo items and have contributed to the corresponding thread.

I visited the German guy selling the copies I have talked about and I can tell you that although the price is very steep the wheels are unbelievably well finished and light, if we ever come up with our own solution then it's great otherwise I think I'll go for these wheels in the future.


The guy in question owns 2 real Group 4s and is storing another 2. Three of these cars have a 4 valve Dino engine worth astronomical amounts. One of these 4 valve engines exists in 3 examples only in the world today...

Cheers,
Tryphon