Omex or Emerald?

[Chris J]

I'm planning to fit a late generation Alfa 24v (2003) and a mappable ECU.

After asking advice from other owners I've narrowed the choice down to:

An Omex 710 with coil on plug, or (£992 ish)
An Emerald K3 with 6 pole coil block (£675 ish)

Can someone help make my mind up, because I can't!

[strat6v]

Your prices are the wrong way round.;)

Can't see anything regarding the emerald using a MAF sensor, omex can. You'll need coil amps from a 164 plus a coil pack from a 155 v6 to add to the Emearld price. Don't forget to quantify the transport and rolling road costs for each too. If you have to take it to Norfolk then thats a big chunk of cash with fuel the price it is. There will probably be an omex agent thats not too far away.

Personal choice really, but if others are using omex for their v6's and have had mapping done then they could save you the rolling road costs by copying a map for you.

[roger001]

What about the DTA S60. £775 inc VAT - I have now used two of their ECUs the first on the Stratos and second on the Crossle - Simple fuss free to wire and set up. Rolling road nearby no problems....

[Stratos]

I have used OMEX for several years now, and have always been very happy with the units, but that's on a 12v motor not a 24v.

Every engine is different, and unless it's absolutely standard, will need mapping. Personally, I would never consider using someone else's map.

I reckon any of the units mentioned would be a suitable solution - Omex, Emerald, DTA.

[strat6v]

Dave, with copying maps, i was meaning for standard GTA engines. I would also say that it should only be done as a base line, in case there aren't any suitable start up maps from the ecu supplier.

[Stratos]

John,

If it's a standard engine, then ok, but how many of us have identical engines?

Identical exhaust systems?
Identical inlet systems?

[vindi49]

I can only give opinions on these two as used on a 2.0 zetec, but I had an omex that I had no end of problems with, changed to an emerald K3 which has been a lot better!!
I bought my emerald about a year ago but only paid about £550 direct from emerald...
The emerald unit was cheaper to buy than the omex (for the zetec anyway) and the standard map they provided was pretty good, they asked me what modifications had been done for the engine and made me a map to suit FOC.
You get provided with a set up CD (that you can take along to the rolling road if they haven't got one although they can be downloaded free from the net) and good installation instructions, if you ever find a rolling road that can't set up an emerald system then I would question if they know what they are doing!!
In reality neither of the companies are much use once they have got your money, neither answered calls or emails for at least a couple of weeks. However the Emerald is more user friendly so you shouldn't need any help anyway. If you are looking at the latest emerald it has switchable maps, one can be used for SVA / MOT / economical get you home setting, and the other for a more enthusiastic / normal driving style. I'm sure both have their pros and cons but I lost money on my OMEX and am happy with my Emerald.
PS anyone want to buy a part used OMEX system? Maybe I should have put it for sale before writing the above...!
Russell

[chris.richard]

2 Emeralds on eBay at the moment - one being sold by a member here.......

[Chris J]

Your prices are the wrong way round.;)



I've sorted the wrong way round bit.

[Chris J]

2 Emeralds on eBay at the moment - one being sold by a member here.......

Both those are the older ones Chris.
The latest one (K3) is the one to go for (I'm told).

[Chris J]

Thanks everyone for the answers so far. It's welcome information, with so little out there to draw on.

I'm starting to think that Stratos rep. builders are pioneers, because searches for technical info. often seem to bring me back to this forum.

[SUSIT]

Just to mix it up a bit, my engine runs an older version of wolf 3D, anyone done anything with the later versions from this company?

Stephen

[strat6v]

You could also look at MBE, Go Tech, DTA, Motec if you are feeling flush:D, Whatever you buy, just make sure that it suits a v6. Emeralds do, but you'll need two extra ignition amps if you are keeping the coil on plug setup and it will be set up for wasted spark. Bobsters Motec works that way. I'm sure Omex and DTA have six coil drivers in the ecu (no amps needed)

I made my choice for two reasons,

The Omex was a bargain ( 600 quid ish?) Can't remember?
Noble motorsport in Chezzie are used to working with omex ecu's.

Saying that, After Mick and myself installed the emerald K3 in Nicky's MX5, they set it up and mapped it. You takes you chances!

[CorseChris]

I think everyone here knows I'm an Emerald fan. Not that I have anything negative to say about Omex, as I've never used their kit or service.

K3 will drive a 6 pole coil direct - just need the coil & connector. I'm using a 6 pole coil from a Ford. Plenty of Vauxhall engines using the Bosch 6 pole coil as well.

Getting it mapped is the real key to success, assuming the hardware is reliable. There are plenty of RR operators who say they know how to map. There are plenty of dead engines to prove they can't. Heard a tale just yesterday about a very expensive K series motor that has been killed 3 times on the trot by the same 'expert' RR operator. You then get into the argument about who is to blame - engine builder or engine mapper.....good luck with that.

I'm running a K3 on the Corse, an M3DK on the Westfield (Zetec). I put a K3 on the EVO and after mapping, it cured literally years of problems due to the original Webber Alpha system. Marmott is using a K3 with dual injectors and he seems happy. Tim has a K3 on his car...but is having some issues at the moment. Some mechanical, some due to inept mapping (NOT at Emerald). One of the very earliest Emerald ECUs cured a problem I had with a Rover V8 that one of the foremost V8 'experts' couldn't fix. DW has over 20 years of experience in the tuning game. One intangible bonus from Emerald - DW will NOT BS you. You might not like what he says...but it'll be right!

Pays your money and takes your choice I suppose. Cost of mapping and transportation there & back has to be factored in whichever way you go. Using someone else's map is fine to get you going, but it does need setting up properly for your own car. I got my car to Emerald using a self-tweaked version of the Golf V6 map they supplied with the ECU so that was just petrol costs there and back, not trailer hire.

Certain advantages to an 'open' system if you have the willingness and knowledge to have a play. I think Omex is open as well isn't it? Emerald certainly is - mapping software & cable are included in the package.

Wiring requirements for both systems are more or less the same, depending on which options you go for.

Tough call really Chris. Either way, I'd be very wary of buying a used ECU of any brand. Had a quick look the the 2 on EBay - unless they end up cheaper than a new K3 by quite a bit, I'd personally prefer the features the K3 gives. Some M3DKs can be updated to K3 spec....but you'd need to ask Karl@Emerald to make sure. You'd need the serial number from the ECU for that.

Problem is Chris, you'll most likely piss John off if you don't buy an Omex like his ;)

I don't have any agenda, I'm just a happy Emerald punter and have been for about 12 years.

[CorseChris]

I'll add something about COP that I said to CJ on a PM - most of the advantages of COP (over wasted spark) are lost on aftermarket management unless you go for something very high-end. COP was designed in part so service intervals could be extended whilst maintaining emissions figures. I don't think there are many aftermarket systems that do spark energy monitoring/modulation like OEM stuff does, so the ability to monitor the spark current as you can with COP is probably pointless. COP modules have a hard life, ask your average VW owner how they feel about COP modules.....failed COPs on Alfa motors aren't unheard of either.



Maybe try comparing feature sets as a way to chose? Dunno - your call CJ!

[Martin K]

I'd like to add my two-halfpence-worth...................

I have some experience of both Omex and Emerald, but I would say that choosing an ECU should be based on two things:

The first:

Is that the ECU should be capable of handling all the inputs and outputs that your engine needs in order to run.

e.g.

If you need to run a mass air flow (MAF) input rather than throttle position and MAP then be sure that the systems you are comparing will handle this. If your engine needs 6 ignition drivers, or needs to run a six coil pack, look carefully, as with some systems you need extra (costing more) external drivers to run the ignition side of things, or sacrificing other channels to deal with the extra two cylinders (as most entry level sytems seem to be designed around 4 cylinders).

also:

Low impedance injectors require more current than high impedance injectors, so make sure that the systems you are comparing don't need extra hardware (costing more) to run low impedance injectors if that is what you are planning to use.

The second:

Equally important to the capability of the hardware is map-ability (new phrase?) - or simply selecting a system that you are confident that there is one (or more) expert that you KNOW can map correctly the fuel and ignition maps and get them into your ECU at a reasonable cost.

You only need one 'expert', but talking from experience, mapping can get expensive if you don't find the right expert in the first instance. We have had 3 self-professed 'experts' attempt to map our Pectel system - and in the end I did it myself. OK, it took me two attempts, but the previous 3 attempts were no good at all. After the 'experts' had mapped it we had way less power than we should have had and AND the risk of major engine damage had we used the engine at full chat for a full race of, oooh, 20 odd miles?

So there are two approaches to this:

1) Check that the capabilities of the sytems you are considering meet your requirements

or

2) Find the right 'man' to map your engine and he will find the right hardware to suit.

In all honesty, I believe the second approach will be cheapest!

[Chris J]

Dunno - your call CJ!

Well, at least I don't need to call it just yet Chris.

Thanks again for everyone's contribution.

[strat6v]

Won't piss me off if he chooses another ECU:D I don't have any ties with omex and have had very good service from D W in the past, top man.

sticking with what hardware is fitted on the engine is a sensible idea. The Gta motor has a nice sub loom on top of the engine that just needs a multiplug fitting. there are no other coil packs to go and buy, no expensive plug leads to have made up, everything is there already.

There were one or two other factors involved in my choice, some items are fitted on my car but won't be operational for a while. The Omex supported the upgrades without having to get a new ecu. Simple choice for me.

[vindi49]

Ought to add in that the OMEX I had problems with was a 500 series, not the current model so things will (hopefully) have moved on since I was having my problems.
Have to agree that its a lot to do with the mapper and it is well worth travelling to find someone good. Still not sure if I'd travel all the way to Emerald though, is DW really that good?
Russell

[Stratos]

In the overall cost of the build of a Stratos, is the travelling cost to ANYWHERE in the UK for one day really that big an issue?

Using the best rolling road operator, regardless of their location, is probably a very cost-effective choice.

Probably, we should be suggesting Rolling Roads that we have used and would recommend.

I think Dave Walker at Emerald has to be recommended. Obviously, he has extensive knowledge of the Emerald ECU, we know that he did a good job on the Alfa Turbo unit in Lionel Gooch's EVO, and Chris Savage has had years of experience dealing with Emerald. ( Emerald M3DK (http://www.emeraldm3d.com) )


I would recommend Adie Hawkins at AHMotorsports. He has extensive knowledge of Alfa engines and mapping them. He has mapped my car twice, and I know several other Alfa cars that he has mapped that perform extremely well. ( AH Motorsport (http://www.ahmotorsports.co.uk/index2.htm) )


If you have further suggestions, please put them here.

[CorseChris]

Good points well made - thinking about it, I ended up with Emerald in the first instance based upon my perception of DW's abilites and knowledge, not his ECU line.

So, there you go Chris - simple(!) job of picking a rolling road guy you can trust then let him specify the kit......

.....Mornington Crescent....... :D

I don't think experience of a particular engine is that relevent for mapping it is it? - just a clear understanding of the principles. Air, fuel, spark, bang. What would be interesting would be to get DW to experiment with the cam timing on a 24V.

[Chris J]

Thank you Dave and Chris. Those are very good points.

[Steve Poole]

Maybe the club could organise a rolling road day with DW as well as event meets and have the results done in a magazine like they do with FastFord etc.. would make an interesting day and no doubt be discounted if enough cars turn up.

Steve

[strat6v]

He only maps his own ecu's so only any good for emerald boxes.

[Chris J]

At the moment Emerald are not taking RR bookings for non Emerald ECUs (because of demand), but have mapped other products before.

[Stratos]

Steve,

At days, like the tests for Fast Ford, etc, I don't believe that there would be time for any mapping to be done, so it would just be a "turn up and have your car's power determined" type of day.

And, for a day like that, any rolling road would be suitable, as you'd just be looking at getting comparative figures between the cars tested.

Actually, I think it would be quite interesting to do this, and mind out how much some of our modified engines REALLY do make in excess of the standard engine - some of us might get some nasty schocks. :eek:



So, Steve, you've probably just talked yourself into a job - pick a rolling road, talk to them about a discounted Stratos day, and get organising everyone to turn out. :D

Go on - you can do it.

[Steve Poole]

Mmmm, food for thought that one! We have HiTech Motorsport around here so that could be possible - just thought it would be an interesting feature for Performance Car or something similar...i'll make enquiries - see what the interest is first off...then costs and relate back.

Steve

[CorseChris]

A basic power run is pretty cheap I think - maybe £25?? A group deal should be cheaper per head though.

[SUSIT]

[QUOTE=Stratos;35955]In the overall cost of the build of a Stratos, is the travelling cost to ANYWHERE in the UK for one day really that big an issue?

Using the best rolling road operator, regardless of their location, is probably a very cost-effective choice.
QUOTE]



I am afraid it is for some of us (Well me anyway) I would think it would cost me close to £1500 to take my Allora to DW in London. I agree it may be money well spent and in some ways you cant afford not too but you do need to have it to spend it.

Stephen

[Stratos]

Ah, Stephen, you're a bit of an extreme though, aren't you.

Perhaps you could get sponsorship for your trip :D

[John]

it would cost me close to £1500 to take my Allora to DW in London.

He's moved to Norfolk, dear boy, so make that a little less!:D

[strat6v]

Its easier to get to london than to norfolk:eek:

[John]

John you are quite correct!

[CorseChris]

[QUOTE=Stratos;35955]In the overall cost of the build of a Stratos, is the travelling cost to ANYWHERE in the UK for one day really that big an issue?

Using the best rolling road operator, regardless of their location, is probably a very cost-effective choice.
QUOTE]



I am afraid it is for some of us (Well me anyway) I would think it would cost me close to £1500 to take my Allora to DW in London. I agree it may be money well spent and in some ways you cant afford not too but you do need to have it to spend it.

Stephen


'cmon Stephen - you're going to have to explain that one a bit.....I know fuel is expensive...but it ain't that bad just yet. Does that price include the ECU, installation, mapping and transport, or do you run yours on 15 year old Scotch??

I can see why you wouldn't want to spend that sort of cash on a free engine though ;)


For those on a budget, I reckon you'd get away with running a stock 166 motor on a 24V 164 ECU. They are pretty adaptive so should catch on. You'd need to swap a few things like throttle body, plenum etc from the 164 as well, but I reckon it'd be close enough for a go if you had the bits lying about. Alternatively, maybe we should try and investigate this whole 'running the OEM ECU' after all - assuming you buy a donor 166 or GTV complete that is.

Still, £1500 for a set of nice wheels or £1500 to make sure your motor is running right (or even at all) and will last.....or £1500 for a nice old banger and to hell with all this kit-car lark. You takes your choice then pays your money.

[CorseChris]

Its easier to get to london than to norfolk:eek:

...did you ever go to his workshops in glorious Brixton????? Went thrice...and that was 3 times too many. Felt lucky to get out alive. (Brixton, not the workshop).

Watton is a lovely quiet spot. Easy enough to get to, and the local tyre place will even replace a faulty tyre valve FOC when it lets go on the rollers.....

[SUSIT]

[QUOTE=SUSIT;35977]


'cmon Stephen - you're going to have to explain that one a bit.....I know fuel is expensive...but it ain't that bad just yet. Does that price include the ECU, installation, mapping and transport, or do you run yours on 15 year old Scotch??

I can see why you wouldn't want to spend that sort of cash on a free engine though ;)


For those on a budget, I reckon you'd get away with running a stock 166 motor on a 24V 164 ECU. They are pretty adaptive so should catch on. You'd need to swap a few things like throttle body, plenum etc from the 164 as well, but I reckon it'd be close enough for a go if you had the bits lying about. Alternatively, maybe we should try and investigate this whole 'running the OEM ECU' after all - assuming you buy a donor 166 or GTV complete that is.

Still, £1500 for a set of nice wheels or £1500 to make sure your motor is running right (or even at all) and will last.....or £1500 for a nice old banger and to hell with all this kit-car lark. You takes your choice then pays your money.


Ok Reckon on 1500 mile round trip towing, fuel 121p per litre Fuel alone would cost £350 then its a 5 day trip so travel lodge or whatever any thing from £50 to £75 per night plus food plus trailer hire then pay for a session on the rolling road could require several hours it all soon mounts up. Then still got to buy ecu.
My fitted engine was far from free but should already be set up and I have the software to reprograme the ecu
My Free Engine sits in the garden looking um ugly but is totally complete. ECU and wiring loom is in the garage. One day I will get round to droping the sump and having a look.
At times i wish i had never started the project but i remember the monte run and a smile comes over me. My day will come:D

[strat6v]

Your half way there Chris, us northerners have to come down quite a bit before we go 'across':D

Steve will be factoring in fuel, cost of mapping time, two or more overnight stays at least plus wear and tear with the tow vehicle etc etc, food, drink, more food and probably a bit more drink;):D

[SUSIT]

[Still, £1500 for a set of nice wheels or £1500 to make sure your motor is running right (or even at all) and will last.....or £1500 for a nice old banger and to hell with all this kit-car lark. You takes your choice then pays your money.[/QUOTE]

£1500 for a set!!!!!!!!!!:confused:

Cost me less for 3 sets of brand new 15" motorsport Revolutions delivered to the North of Scotland :)

[SUSIT]

Your half way there Chris, us northerners have to come down quite a bit before we go 'across':D

Steve will be factoring in fuel, cost of mapping time, two or more overnight stays at least plus wear and tear with the tow vehicle etc etc, food, drink, more food and probably a bit more drink;):D

Dont worry John,
I am remembering my wee contest a few months back, think i owe you and one other a pint or two. Will catch you at chatsworth:D

Stephen
wrong John me thinks, but i will buy you both a pint and Sptwoman as well

[John]

Oh God no, I don't want John H drinking my pint! Ralph, yes, but John can buy his own!

[CorseChris]

[QUOTE=CorseChris;35988]


Ok Reckon on 1500 mile round trip towing, fuel 121p per litre Fuel alone would cost £350 then its a 5 day trip so travel lodge or whatever any thing from £50 to £75 per night plus food plus trailer hire then pay for a session on the rolling road could require several hours it all soon mounts up. Then still got to buy ecu.
My fitted engine was far from free but should already be set up and I have the software to reprograme the ecu
My Free Engine sits in the garden looking um ugly but is totally complete. ECU and wiring loom is in the garage. One day I will get round to droping the sump and having a look.
At times i wish i had never started the project but i remember the monte run and a smile comes over me. My day will come:D

Strewth.....hardly worth owning a car on that basis! Or at least venturing south with it.

Return to a variant of Martins point then - find a mapper you trust (but within practical distance)....but your's doesn't need mapping anyway, so it's not a problem.

The £1550 for a set of wheels was for the coffin spoke (or Image) fanciers really. I'd have used something a bit cheaper myself, but nothing at a sensible price will fit a Gp4 Corse S - you need to have them made to fit.

Best not say what my paintjob cost........and yes, I was ripped off.

Might be pertinent to mention, but Emerald charge a flat fee to map the car. DW has stated often enough that it should take half a day to map an engine (assuming it doesn't break/nothing falls off/it was capable of running when it arrived), so he charges for half a day even if it takes more (or even a lot more). Simple to cure installation defects are sorted on the spot.

I think most aftermarket systems are user programmable, but some charge extra for the interface lead and software. You could argue that if you are never going to map or fiddle yourself, you're paying for something you don't want, but the software is effectively free, and a comms cable is only pence and it's always nice to be able to tweak minor things.

John6V...you are closer to Emerald than me mate! It's about a 350 mile round trip for me. You'd be about 120 miles away??


Takes your choice, pays your money, other engine management systems are available, no shortage of self-proclaimed experts willing to tell you what you want to hear. YMMV, E&OE.......

[strat6v]

Its a 5 mile round trip to Noble's for me.:)

They mapped Nicky's MX5 nicely. When it came out, it ran as sweet as a nut!!
Only thing that bugs me is you aren't allowed in the cell while he works:( something to do with Health and Safety Regs. Surely if i'm breathing my own exhaust fumes.............:confused::D

[CorseChris]

Its a 5 mile round trip to Noble's for me.:)

They mapped Nicky's MX5 nicely. When it came out, it ran as sweet as a nut!!
Only thing that bugs me is you aren't allowed in the cell while he works:( something to do with Health and Safety Regs. Surely if i'm breathing my own exhaust fumes.............:confused::D

There's another option then CJ - bit closer to home.

Which systems do they map John? Anything??

It is nice to be able to 'get involved' during the mapping....but I doubt it adds anything useful to the process. Can you see the car at Noble's or is it just wheeled away and hidden while they work on it?

[strat6v]

Any system i think but i'm sure they are omex agents. Is/was the same company group as the noble sportscars.

They put your car in the cell and close the soundproofed doors, only way to hear it is down the exhaust extraxction system:rolleyes:

I'd really like to see whats going on but as you point out, i wouldn't really know what was going on. Whoever i book i'd like a session on the rollers and maybe a few tweaks on a ride out as such, just to fix any slight niggles.

[vindi49]

If anyone is feling really adventurous, you can book the rollers at Evesham College and do the mapping yourself!!
Russell

[strat6v]

That'll be CorseChris putting his shoes on:D

Where's my keys Duck??

[Elliott.L]

My car goes in to have its DTA E48 remapped by these guys on Monday:-

http://chrdyno.co.uk/services.php

The mapping chap works as a race mechanic for one of the Aston Martin customer race teams. They are based just outside of Barnet, N.London.

They do alot of work on race/track day cars and Nobles.

They also take their rr aroud the country to car shows and the like.

Elliott.

[CorseChris]

If anyone is feling really adventurous, you can book the rollers at Evesham College and do the mapping yourself!!
Russell

They've got rollers at Evesham? Mmmmm, me trying to DIY it 15 miles from home or driving to Watton.... Watton every time!

I don't mind having a fiddle around the periphery of a good base map, but starting from scratch and getting the whole thing working right involves a bit more than just getting the AFR on target in all the boxes. There's a lot of background knowledge required, plus no small amount of skill and experience.

Might be handy for a quick power run though?


Emerald let you watch the mapping, and a test-drive (assuming it's road legal) is part of the process.

My first experience of a rolling road was a long while back. I took my fake snake to Theme Valley Race prep to have the ignition re-curved and the Holley re-jetted. When I arrived, the guy was just finishing off giving his hill climb car a tweak. Can't remember what it was now, but it looked very F1 and had a DFV in the back. What made me pause was the large spray of tyre rubber all over the ceiling and up the front and back walls......Oh, and the noise.....

[Chris J]

Update on the Omex purchase (or not):

With the 710 ECU, you also need the 710 programming kit obviously not included in the ECU price.

This brings the total (including vat) to £1,016.38

[Stratos]

If anyone is feling really adventurous, you can book the rollers at Evesham College and do the mapping yourself!!
Russell


As well as a rolling road, they don't perhaps have a wind tunnel?

Thinking about the thread regarding the effectiveness of the roof spoilers.

[CorseChris]

Converted mine to run sequential injection at the weekend. Did this as the injectors I'd fitted where a bit big (360cc/min@3bar) and I was having trouble getting a reliable/stable idle mixture. DW commented on them when he mapped the car - injector pulse width at idle was far lower than he was happy with. Changing from group fired to sequential gave me double the injection pulse time (almost). (I'd fitted the big injectors to allow for the blower installation...the 360s where cheap, but some 280-310 size would have been better for group firing).

What's really interesting to me, is that the car feels to be running a whole lot smoother on light throttle now. I've made a couple of minor tweeks to the map to allow for the change, but that doesn't explain the difference.

I wondered if the design of the V6 is a bit intolerant of group fired injection - maybe there is a lot of 'wetting out'? Dunno...but it's driving better for it.

I put a Thema Turbo crank position sensor into the old distributor base to provide the cam angle sensor. Cut down the rotor arm base a bit, removed 2 of the 'legs' and job done. Not an issue for you 24V types as you already have a cam angle sensor you can use.

I'm running a large chunk of the map in closed loop adaptive at the moment by way of an experiment. I'll see how it goes over the next few weeks.

[Sando]

Top Bof Chris:D:cool:

[Stratos]

Converted mine to run sequential injection at the weekend. Did this as the injectors I'd fitted where a bit big (360cc/min@3bar) and I was having trouble getting a reliable/stable idle mixture. DW commented on them when he mapped the car - injector pulse width at idle was far lower than he was happy with. Changing from group fired to sequential gave me double the injection pulse time (almost). (I'd fitted the big injectors to allow for the blower installation...the 360s where cheap, but some 280-310 size would have been better for group firing).

What's really interesting to me, is that the car feels to be running a whole lot smoother on light throttle now. I've made a couple of minor tweeks to the map to allow for the change, but that doesn't explain the difference.

I wondered if the design of the V6 is a bit intolerant of group fired injection - maybe there is a lot of 'wetting out'? Dunno...but it's driving better for it.

I put a Thema Turbo crank position sensor into the old distributor base to provide the cam angle sensor. Cut down the rotor arm base a bit, removed 2 of the 'legs' and job done. Not an issue for you 24V types as you already have a cam angle sensor you can use.

I'm running a large chunk of the map in closed loop adaptive at the moment by way of an experiment. I'll see how it goes over the next few weeks.


Chris,

Would this indicate that the use of multiple injectors would suit the Alfa V6?

I believe Gary Lomas has fitted throttle bodies to his engine with 2 injectors per cylinder - is this to get better idle/low-speed running while getting maximum performance at the top end?

Maybe Gary will comment on his reasoning?

[Sando]

....more top end power probably..

Chris did you have it batch firing in pairs before? thats how mines set up. I have slight trouble with rough tickover / flatspot just off idle sometimes but I put this down to no bypass valve or MAP sensor just TPS angle and the butterfly being only open a whisper for tickover. I think the flatspot is then fuel drop-out when the throttle is opened and there is a big pressure change. Richening it up helps fill the hole but empties your wallet!

easy answer is to not drive slowly !:D

Rab

[CorseChris]

I know Gary had issues with fuel dropout running only the TB injectors, so he used the stock ones up to about 3k rpm (IIRC) then switched over to using the TB injectors at higher engine speeds, which solved the problem. Hopefully he'll be along shortly and fill in the details. I did have some brief conversations with him about this, but it was a while back when he was trying out ideas in his head.

DW did lots of tests with external injectors a long time ago, and reached the conclusion that you need some close in for low speed, then switch over to the externals (or both) for higher revs/demand. I don't think the beneifts are huge, but they do exist apparently. Unless you already had TB's with their own injectors attached to the stock inlet stubs, with the stock injectors, it would be a lot of bother to do I think. I've seen external injector mounting kits for assorted brands of TBs, so someone thinks it's worthwhile.

I did briefly consider putting in 2 sets of smaller injectors on my car, but given I was retaining the original inlet setup, it looked like an awful lot of work. I thought an extra set fitted into the plenum directly opposite the inlet runners might work OK, or even let into the chrome runners themselves.

If I'd chosen a more suitable sized injector, again, it would have been OK.....but I do think it runs better with the injection pulses phased to the inlet opening. Other than my guess, can't explain why though.

The stock 12V system runs group fired injectors of course (all 6 at once IIRC??), but the later 24V systems are sequential. The old Rover V8 used to fire two groups of 4.

Given it cost me nothing other than 3 bits of wire and an old crank sensor, it was a real winner for my particular setup.

What struck me as I was doing the job was at the half-way stage of having wired the injectors, but not the cam angle sensor, I fired it up briefly to make sure it ran (in case I ran out of time) and it was fine, but a bit 'fluffy' at idle. As soon as I installed the cam angle sensor and told the ECU about it - it was much smoother. No other changes, and it was no warmer, so the only factor had to be the timing of the injection events. I'd guess the first time I fired it up, it locked up 360 crank degrees out.

So, based on this, it seems it's well worth doing a sequential setup if you can. I'd always understood the benefits where mostly to emissions and economy...but then that makes sense, as if it's running better, it should by rights be more efficient and cleaner. All about proper atomisation I suppose. Having that cloud of fuel hanging around in the inlet clearly isn't ideal.

Interesting stuff indeed......

[CorseChris]

....more top end power probably..

Chris did you have it batch firing in pairs before? thats how mines set up. I have slight trouble with rough tickover / flatspot just off idle sometimes but I put this down to no bypass valve or MAP sensor just TPS angle and the butterfly being only open a whisper for tickover. I think the flatspot is then fuel drop-out when the throttle is opened and there is a big pressure change. Richening it up helps fill the hole but empties your wallet!

easy answer is to not drive slowly !:D

Rab

...sorry, was typing response while you typed your question....

Yes, it was 3 groups of 2, wired as per the ignition, so it's 'wasted squirt' :)

If you can, I'd give it a go on sequential. Also, can you give your accel fuelling a bit of a lift? might help.

I'm only running TPS at the moment, and the transition is smooth, although we did have trouble with the Westy on it's bike TBs - the flow/deflection characteristic of the bike TBs is very sharp at idle, and as we run an older ECU, we couldn't redefine the TPS/load site map to increase resolution at the very bottom. While it was at Emerald being mapped, Karly briefly put an M3DK ECU on it with the bottom few percent of the TPS map set very close and that cured it a treat. He was able to map round it more or less with the older ECU but it's not perfect. Still gives some cracking pops & bangs from time to time as it goes lean. 'Normal' driving is fine though.

I did install a MAP sensor but ti's doing nowt at the moment - this will be essential once the blower is on though....

[Sando]

:D:D Wasted Squirt :D:D Love it.
yep did lift the acel fueling, but had to cut it back a bit as it was wasting a lot of fuel for something I can live with. ...Pops and bangs are great too, doesn't do it unless it's really hot but..:cool:
I ought to look at getting the phase sensor wired in and set up then. Still need to get it checked on the rollers after the new zorst but it seems fine so as usual it just gets used. perhaps should sort out and go for session at Owen Developments, they mapped it originally and seem to be the Motec experts.

Well done on the Dizzy innovation...inspired!
Bobster

[Stratos]

Let me start off here by saying I know absolutely nothing about the subject really ....

BUT, I've never really understood why the injection systems fire all injectors at once instead of just when needed.

Surely that really means that you have little control over the actual fueling on the firing cycle, cos, as you say, you have a "cloud of fuel hanging around in the inlet" waiting for the next firing cycle.

I would have imagined that you needed more control of the fuel air mixture than that.

Those of you with more knowledge than me can now explain ..... :D

[Martin K]

Let me start off here by saying I know absolutely nothing about the subject really ....

BUT, I've never really understood why the injection systems fire all injectors at once instead of just when needed.

I will try to explain from what I know......

Looking at the case of a 3 litre (2959cc) , 6 cylinder engine with 360cc/minute injectors with VE at 100% and fueling mapped for peak power at an AFR of 12.6:1 at an air temperature of 20 degrees celcius, each cylinder will require 0.00131 lbs of air and 0.00010 lbs of fuel per power stroke with WOT.

trust me........

Sequential injection means that the injector is open once every 720 crank degrees, during the inlet stroke, for a certain period of time. Injector manufacturers suggest that an injector should only operate on an 80% duty cycle - i.e. they should not be required to be open 100% of the time available to deliver the required fuel, but should be sized to deliver enough fuel when only open for 80% of the time.

Now, at 6000 rpm, each crank rotation takes 10 milli seconds, but to deliver enough fuel for our engine above a 360cc/minute injector would have to be open for 10.59 milli seconds. This is obviously beyond 100% and therefore beyond what sequential fueling can deliver.

To stick with sequential injection on the engine we are talking about with 6 x 360cc/minute injectors operating at 80% duty cycle we would have to limit the engine speed to about 4500 rpm - and an ouput of about 164 BHP maximum.

Or we can make a choice above this engine speed:

employ the use of some more injectors, dividing the fuel required and therefore the time the injectors must be open, between them

or

switch from sequential injection to some other mode that uses the available injector flow (i.e. cc/minute) more effectively - i.e. instead of opening once every 720 crank degrees open once every 360 crank degrees. This effectively doubles the amount of fuel that can be delivered and therefore can double the engine speed at which we reach 80% injector duty rate. Even though the inlet valve is shut and the fule is injected into a port that is 'idle' - this works!

All ECUs - OE or aftermarket - that are capable of sequential injection must switch to 360 degree operation at some point in order to prived enough fuel at higher rpm.

We use a combination of two injectors per cylinder, with the second 'bank' coming into operation at a certain fuel demand, and sequential 720 degree injection switching to 360 degree when their is a demand for even more fuel. This, I think, is the only possible way to fuel a turbo engine from ticking over in the paddock at 1500 rpm with a vacuum in the inlet manifold, to running at 8000 rpm with 2 bar of boost.

Hope that helps.....

One other thing - we run the first/primary set of injectors in the original manufacturers position - injecting directly into the head onto and as close to the inlet valve as possible. This is generally accepted as the best position for good for idle/low speed pick up etc. Our second set are further up the inlet tract - we may even move them onto the plenum, injecting outside the inlet runners but directly 'at' them, in the future.

[Stratos]

Martin,

Did you copy my message? I was just about to say that! :D :D :D

Well, I did say I was handing it over to those who knew more ....


Actually, after I read it 3 times, it did start to make sense - provided I ignored the figures in the first section, and trusted you ....


BUT ....

Doesn't that seem contrary to what Chris seems to have found works for his engine?

Although, trying to read the tone of Chris's post, he did seem a little surprised at what happened.

[Martin K]

No it doesn't seem contrary to me. I would expect that an engine running with sequential injection would run better at idle and low rpm.

The reason is that injecting in 720 degree mode (sequential) will require a single 'squirt' of 3-4 milli seconds. This will be timed by the ECU so that the end of the 'squirt' is at an ideal crank angle to get a good mixture in the cylinder.

Running in 360 degree non-sequential mode would require two 'squirts' of 1.5 - 2 milli seconds, which is very short, and the squirt during the induction stroke will mix far better than the squirt on the power stroke, which will have to hand around in the inlet port (for 60 milli seconds at 1000 rpm) waiting for the induction stroke. This gives an uneven mixture which won't burn that well - plus you will probably have to increase fueling as some of the badly atomised fuel won't burn at all.

So sequential gives abetter mixture at idle and lower rpm and is likely to be more fuel efficient and have lower emmissions - particularly hydrocarbons.

As engine speed increases, 360 degree injection has less drawbacks as the power stroke 'squirt' stays atomised long enough to give a good mixture: at 3000 rpm, for example, there will only be around ten milli seconds between the end of the first squirt and the beginning of the next on the induction stroke and at 6000 rpm only a 5 milli second delay.

[Martin K]

provided I ignored the figures in the first section, and trusted you ....

It is only possible to get a 'ball park' injector time by calculation. There are too many variables to allow better than that. The variables include fuel temperature and pressure, inlet temperature, volumetric efficiency at a given rpm and throttle opening, flow in the inlet port which can increase drop-out, the opening time of the injector (they don't flow their maximum instantaneously, which is why very short opening times give bad injector spray patterns and hence atomisation) and similarly the injector closing time.

At wide open throttle, at reasonably high rpm and with and a known volumetric efficiency (which can be calculated from a torque plot taken from a dyno run) then injector timing calculations can be 95% accurate, which can get your AFR in the range of 13.8:1 - 15.2:1 - not bad for a start map.

That's what I have found anyway. The tricky bits, as others have mentioned, are tick over, pickup from tickover - and of course starting the engine with air temperatures varying from -10c to 30c+ and water temperatures from -10c to 100c+

On the subject of engine pickup from idle or closed throttle, some ECUs have 'transient' maps which allow extra fuelling when the throttle is opened. This acts rather like an accelerator pump jet on a carburettor. I have found this feature very useful in 'crisping up' the response when pulling away from a standstill in the paddock and for accelerating hard out of a corner after being on a closed throttle on the way in to the corner.

[CorseChris]

I've asked Karl to clarify for certain what the Emerald does...but my thought is, couldn't it simply keep injecting as long as required? It has to start injecting earlier and earlier prior to the valve opening. If this long injection period takes it back to the previous crank rotation, then you could argue it's not really different to batch firing, but there's only 1 injection event per combustion cycle.

FWIW, the software on the Emerald flags less than 5% and more than 85% as undesirable injection periods.

I've been pondering why the change I made has had such a subjectively big impact on how it drives on light load, and it did cross my mind that the areas it's most improved are those on the very shortest injection periods, so it comes back to the same thing really - they must have been too short for reliable operation of the injector. I was warned!

Not complaining though - 3 bits of wire, some old bits and an hour or two fiddling have really made a difference. I don't expect to see any change on WOT though.

The 360cc injectors are good for roughly 50bhp each...so if the blower works out as I hope, it'll turn out the injectors are in fact perfectly sized ;)

As I said, I did consider installing dual injectors but it was a lot of bother, particularly as I still don't know just how the blower setup is going to work. I don't intend doing any internal mods to the engine, and am prepared to try it and give up if it turns out there are detonation problems or the gains are not worth the extra complication. If I do drop the blower idea, I could revert to some stock injectors, although the way it's working now, there's not a lot of point.

Interesting discussion though!

[Stratos]

Chris,

What are you hoping to gain from the blower? Any initial estimates?

[CorseChris]

Dave,

In my usual fashion...based on not very much other than blind faith and ignorance....I'm expecting between 6 and 8psi (hoping for 7), this could give me somewhere around 70 or so BHP and hopefully a bit more torque. Could go higher than that, but I'm not going to get excited until I see the numbers on the rollers!

Simplistically, if I push 7psi in, I'll get another 100bhp, less what it takes to drive the blower (roughly 20bhp from the tables)....but I know it's not that simple!

Boost estimate is very rough & ready as well. I don't know how much boost I'll lose due to cam overlap, nor blower losses. I'm running a slightly big blower slightly slowly, so expect that I'll lose a bit of boost at lower revs, but lose less power higher up. Looking at the map for the blower, I think I've ended up with it mostly in it's most efficient area at the sort of revs I'll typically be using.

I've had a bit of input from Greg Gordon and he thinks it'll be OK. He'd have gone for a smaller more efficient blower, more boost, water or methanol injection and lower CR...but that costs money! I'm doing this in the spirit of PPC - cheap.

Hope to spend lunchtime figuring out how to attach the charge cooler to a 'modified' inlet plenum...and still get it under the engine cover.

[Stratos]

WOW :)

That should make a very interesting installation. We'll all be waiting to see progress on this.

[CorseChris]

Had this confirmed for the M3DK (I parapahrase); In sequential mode, it stays sequential, just makes the injection pulses longer and longer as needed, timed to happen at an optimum point as far as is possible. Once the pulse duration goes beyond the length of the optimum time window, it's not alot different to batch firing. Only 1 injection pulse per combustion event.


Still struggling to get that charge cooler in the available space though......

[Sando]

I had a thought about my Motec:eek:. Can't do any more that firing twice in pairs as I only have 3 outputs to use on the M4.....so wasted squirts and sparks it is for me !!!:D

Bobster

[Martin K]

In sequential mode, it stays sequential, just makes the injection pulses longer and longer as needed, timed to happen at an optimum point as far as is possible. Once the pulse duration goes beyond the length of the optimum time window, it's not alot different to batch firing. Only 1 injection pulse per combustion event.

Interesting. Thanks for confirming the details.

[CorseChris]

I had a thought about my Motec:eek:. Can't do any more that firing twice in pairs as I only have 3 outputs to use on the M4.....so wasted squirts and sparks it is for me !!!:D

Bobster

Well, I think it's more a 'nice to have' than an essential (assuming you don't have to run big injectors), so I wouldn't fret about it Rob. TBH, I only did it on mine as it was simple, free, and seemed like a good idea!

Apart from some minor tweaks, yours is running well. Speaking of same....what's the ignition doing around the 'problem' area? Could you give it a bit of an advance kick at the point it drops off? It's a while back...but I think I did this with the old Rover V8 to help solve a similar thing. Don't know the Motec, but perhaps the accel map has a rev & load-weighting table you could play with - wind in more accel fuelling at lower revs/throttles. Is it rate-sensitive as well perhaps? Again, it might have the ability to squirt in more the quicker you boot it.


I'm lucky with the Emerald in that I can ask questions directly - Karl has been splendidly patient with me over the years! Failing that, it would be more time consuming if not impossible to find these things out. Having said that, I did answer a question on the early Motronic by putting an oscilloscope on it!

[Sando]

Thanks Chris I'll have a look. It's not any hinderance apert from traffic jams.;)