Hi-Flow fuel pump advice

[Swamprat33]

Hi guys, I am looking to get a secondary hi-flow fuel pump to use with a fuel swirl pot.
I have been recommended the Facet Red top pump, but do i really need that amount of flow.
Red top = 35 gallons
Silver top = 27 gallons
competition solid state = 25 gallons.

The solid state pumps are much cheaper, but is there a reason why I should avoid them and go for a silver or red top pump instead.

I realise that the swirl pot needs to be kept full, but 30+ gallons per hour seems very OTT.

Any suggestions.

Cheers

Tim

[strat6v]

It would probably push fuel out of the breather pipe. It'll take a bit of thinking about to balance flow and fuel usage, maybe you need a return to your tank bottom?

[syndicate]

Hi Tim i ve always gone red 4 turbos and silver 4 fi dont make the mistake of thinking the facet only keeps the swirl pot full it move all your fuel just not at as high a pressure (the fuel only leaves the tank via 1 exit) The order goes
1 tank feed
2 inline filter
3 facet
4 swirl pot (in bottom /out bottom ) the overflow returns to your tank
5 high pressure pump
6 fuel filter
7 fuel rail (fuel reg end is return) Please note u now have 2 returns you can
tee them into 1 but check your tank return can cope some returnsw are only 6mm when the rest of the system is 8mm its usually better to create another return hope this helps see u when the sun shines John

[Swamprat33]

Cheers for the info John. Just what i needed. I found some info that uses the same order that you suggested, also has a pwetty picture :D

Good idea about the return line - need to check, but I am sure my return is same bore as the feed.

Tim

[CorseChris]

I have a red top lift pump that feeds via a filter into a MkII Golf swirl pot/pump housing assembly. This then feeds via another filter to the rail, back from the reg to the swirl return, then back from the swirl to the top of the fuel tank. This setup results in an overall flow of fuel from tank to swirl to rail to swirl to tank at all times. This is a good thing as it helps keep the fuel cool and avoids evaporation. If you find you think the return rate is too high, you can always pop a restrictor in the tank return to reduce the amount of flow that way. I do this on the Westfield which has an almost identical setup and both work perfectly.

I tried both cars without the lift pump but both suffered problems with the swirl running dry as there was too much distance from tank to swirl. If there had been sufficient height difference it would have worked as it does in the Golf.

In terms of total flow requirement, the red top used to be in the Marcos we had and fed a 3.5 V8 making about 200bhp. The Westy has a solid state lift pump and this copes with a 170bhp Zetec. As long as the lift pump keeps the swirl full, any excess capacity is a good thing IMO. End of the day, you need to pump sufficient fuel for the power you are achieving. Safer to over-pump and let the return and pressure regulator sort it out for you I think.

YMMV.

[Sptwoman]

My fuel system is my current project so the thread made interesting reading! When it comes to facet pumps, which type should I choose, solid state or cylindrical? Also, are there any aftermarket high pressue pumps worth considering?

[Swamprat33]

Hi, I have an old Walbro external HP/Injector pump fitted at present, but want to replace this with one of their 255 externail pumps. They are very good pumps, and have not heard of one failing in any of my mates cars.
They can be got from FSE for about £120.

As for the hi-flo pumps, I have been advised to get a Red top pump, as my engine is rated over 240bhp. The cylindrical pumps have a higher capacity, and are also self priming. Another bonus is that you can position them further from the tank than the solid state kind.

Hope that helps.

Tim

[SUSIT]

All sounds very complicated, I have only one HP pump, no swirl pot, pre and post pump filter. Only running one fuel tank and its shape and foam filling should stop fuel surge. Pump is fitted close to outlet of tank so does not have to lift fuel.
Engine modified 12 valve V6 Alfa at 255bhp. Any one think i have done it wrong

cheers
Stephen
Ps I am trying to keep to the K.I.S.S. school of thought

[strat6v]

The only time you will have problems would be when the fuel level was low and cornering/braking hard, causing the pump to suck air. Not the end of the world on a proddy car but it won't do your modified engine any good when it leans out :eek:

[Sptwoman]

Thanks Tim, All sorted now in my mind...

[Swamprat33]

Hi Stephen, My tank is not foam filled and is already on the small side.
I have had bad fuel surge on 3 or 4 occasions when out on a track, and it is not pleasant when you are part way round a long corner.

I have considered three options so far.

1. Fill tank with foam. However, this will reduce fuel capacity by 10-15%. The tank is only just big enough already, so don't want to reduce range any more. This would not completley eradicate surge, and buying the foam would be almost as expensive as a red top.

2. Get a red top and swirl pot. Job done.

3. Do nothing, but drive slower round corners :rolleyes:

Tim

[Sptwoman]

Is this type ok as an injection pump (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/B-NEW-Electric-Fuel-Pump-AUDI-FORD-MERCEDES-0580254-910_W0QQitemZ230239113868QQihZ013QQcategoryZ10398Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)?

[Swamprat33]

Hi mate, yes, it could be ok.

However, you need check a couple of things.

First, are you wanting an in tank or out of tank pump.

Second, the pump needs to be 12v.

Third, It needs to be good for 200+ bhp (allow a good margin above the bhp of your engine.

Bear in mind, that you will also need at least 1 or pref 2 fuel filters in your setup. The best setup would be to have one filter between the tank and pump, then a second between pump and fuel rail.

FSE make some really good anodised filters with replaceable elements.

Hope that helps.

Tiim

[Sptwoman]

I'm running with:
Twin foam filled tanks
T'd into in line filter
Facet red top
Swirl pot
Out of tank injection pump
In line filter

The injection pump seems to have been used on a wide variety of applications. HP from 90 to 260!!

[Sando]

Hi Al
I use a similar Bosch pump mine is the xxxx911 if I remember, I think it may have been from a 3.0l ford. The connections need to also be considered to suit what you want.
I'm sure there's a thread / link on here already, but try the FSE website I think it was there I found a PDF with all the Bosch flow rates and details on. I think I was looking for 2.4l/m @3 bar. You need enough to flow for max power but not too much to be circulating your fuel round and round. Same with high pressure, so long as it comfortably does the 3 bar there is no point getting some super duper turbo pump that will do 6 or seven bar.

Bobster

[Sando]

...........FSE (http://www.fuelsystem.co.uk/injection.htm) :)
and info here (http://www.fuelsystem.co.uk/bosch1.pdf)
910 flows 3.25l/m so is more than enough Allen I have no probs on the 911 which is 2.7l/m

[Sptwoman]

Cheers Rob, nearly there!!! Can I get away with a silver top facet or does it need to be a red top before my swirl pot?

[Sando]

Can't comment on that bit...I'm with Steve on the KISS front :eek:
I think it is the proper way to do it with a wide flat tank but not sure it's neccessary in tall narrow tanks. The Airation is more likely to come from too much hot fuel circulation IMHO.
My pick up is from a tee piece between the (foam filled) tanks. The fuel doesn't slosh around in the tank and if it does run from one tank to the other there is plenty of fuel in the pipes....another reason not to have a pump sending gallons around the system too.

.....if it isn't there it can't go wrong is the usual cry from the rally boys :)

Rab

[Sptwoman]

Same old question :o HELP!! What spec of facet pump am I looking for to supply my swirl pot? There are different red & silver top specs. What PSI & flow rate am I looking for?

[CorseChris]

Same old answer really - how much power are you expecting, size it accordingly. It'll be running at very low pressure so you'll get at least the rated flow, if not more.

As a simple rule of thumb, go for 1l/min/100bhp and you'll be plenty safe.

HTH