Beta clutch problem

[Chris J]

I worked round the problem of a very stiff clutch last year with my Beta engined Hawk. I had to convert it back from the hydraulic system to a cable to get it to function at all. It was the best I could do in the time I had at the beginning of last summer.

I knew the fix would need the gearbox out of the car, and I've just got round to doing that. The thing is, I can't see anything wrong apart from pretty severe wear and tear on the upper and lower bush of the clutch release arm within the bellhousing.

The clutch plate and pressure plate are ok, and the release bearing is in very good condition, almost as new in fact.

Any ideas?

[Sando]

Could be the bushes Chris.
There is very little movement difference between engaged and disengaged. MM can make the difference. (So Bernard says anyway :D )
If I remember right I you need 30mm movement at the slave end of the hydraulic system to give you a good clear action.
have you already done or know about the mods of flattening the end of the pedal so you get maximum movement and adding extra length to the arm that pushes the master cyl to get the absolute maximum stroke? solid or aeroqup hose is also needed to help with this. Old hoses can expand under pressure and can drop you that vital MM.

Rab

[strat6v]

Start with rectifying the bush situation first to eliminate the free play and possible alignment issue, then as Rob says, have a look at the pedal situation.

[Chris J]

Thanks Rob,

I made all the previously recommended modifications to the clutch pedal just after I got the car.

At the moment, it's not obvious to me that it's an issue with the pressure plate, so it must be the millmetres I'm loosing with the slop at both ends of the arm in the belhousing?

Pressing the clutch pedal wasn't smooth at all. I had to press really hard before it would suddenly budge. It was almost undrivable.

The bush at the top of the inner arm is nylon and can be replaced, but the other end is just steel turning in the die cast alloy, which won't be as easy to repair.

[Chris J]

Start with rectifying the bush situation first to eliminate the free play and possible alignment issue, then as Rob says, have a look at the pedal situation.

Thanks John,

Pedal situation was sorted long ago, so all I can do is fix the bushing. I think the amount of play and wear is a bigger issue than I realise?

[mudhut]

Hi Chris.

Re the PM you sent, here's a link (http://www.stratossupersite.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2232) to the thread with original photo I took (post 14) - let me know if you want more detail or if you want me to remove the slave cylinder and measure the bits.

I also have a slave cyl from an X1/9 that I bought as a spare from Chris Savage a couple of years ago. Let me know if you think you might want it - I'll need to find it and check its condition after two years' storage.

[Chris J]

Thanks for that Peter.

I think that photo tells me just about everything I need to know at the moment. I wish I could find one of those Monte arms.

I have a set of new master and slave cylinders. I think the slave that's already on the car is good too. The master cylinder on the car looks new, but is leaking, and I think it's probably the lack of use that's caused it.

The hydraulic slave set up on my orange car had the cylinder mounted to the front of the engine with a modified and shortened cable arm facing in the opposite direction to a Monte arm. I converted back to cable to eliminate this hydraulic set up from my enquiries!

Chris

[Shaun II]

I had trouble putting the arm and release bearing back on a beta box once, I think the two prongs on the rotating bar were bent, out of alignment or even different on early or late betas. Clutch troubles (beta) have always been the cable though. Maybe the wear and tear on the box are the symptons not the cause, is the clutchplate std? Is the metal plate between the engine and box still in place?

I've had lots of trouble with my clutch too(hawk), still not 100% and after 2 miles I think it's slipping. Think, as it was really wet, first time out in the car and there were a few other problems which demanded my attention.

Gearbox wise, I seem to remember reading somewhere that some modern EP additives can attact the box causing gear selection problems. Some people have used engine oil in it's place!

If I get time I'll cure my problem with an alfa box!

Can you not "fabricate" a monte like arm from the old beta one using some heat and a big hammer?

The Sandoman had a huge great big slave on his car once, the 'mm' travel looked like it could well have approached Metres and moved the whole engine several cm's.

Anyway, back to work - make hay while the sunshines and all that.

[Chris J]

Shaun,

I would and could fabricate an arm, but it's another job to do, and I've got enough jobs.

The metal plate is in place, which I forgot about until I tried to pull the the gearbox away from the engine. Doh!

I'm starting with the inner arm bushes, before I start blaming anything else like the pressure plate. I'm certain that pedal to gearbox actuation isn't the issue here.

I'm going Alfa later this year, so having to do Beta related repair work isn't welcome, but I must do it.

[Sando]

Chris
Have you spoken to Chad at the Montehospital about the arms/bushes and bits??
Rab

[Chris J]

Chris
Have you spoken to Chad at the Montehospital about the arms/bushes and bits??
Rab

Chad sold the business some time ago Rob.

I ordered a top bush from the new people today.

[Chris J]

I've got the inner clutch arm working now with zero play and replaced the gearbox.

The action is much smoother, but the clutch is still quite an effort to press, although probably no worse than the blue Beta engined car I had before.

If the clutch in the car I have now is an uprated one, I'm wondering if this left leg workout is always going to be the case with a combination of the Hawk pedal ratio and an uprated clutch?

At the moment I'm still using a cable to test the set up, but I found (on the previous similar car) that converting to hydraulic only helped a little. The hydraulic didn't give the big improvement I'd hoped it would. That said, I will be fitting a hydraulic set up with new components soon, but before that, I want to compare it with a known standard pressure plate.

This will all be history when I fit a V6, but I want to make the car as drivable as possible for this year.

[Sando]

I swapped from cable to Hydro on my Vx Chris, made a big difference to the pedal effort required. Standard clutch, stronger clutch would be heavier though.

Rab

[Chris J]

Just removed the gearbox, (again) and a with a big thanks to David Jowsey, fitted a OE Strada Abarth 130 clutch and pressure plate and re-fitted the box.

Job's sorted, (subject to testing) it's so much easier to press, and that's even with the cable. The hydraulic system should make it even better.

The AP pressure plate that was fitted to this Guy Croft engine has been balanced, so I'm guessing it's been fitted when the engine was built.

All I can make out from this is that a clutch of this type is just too much to live with, and maybe the Hawk pedal ratio doesn't give you a fighting chance? I'm sure the pressure plate has made the wear and tear in the inner arm bushes much worse than they would otherwise have been?

[chris.richard]

Hawk pedal ratios seem to be sub-optimal on brake & clutch. iWhen i converted mine to Alfa hydraulic, I found it difficult to solve the travel/effort balance. I'm still not happy with the effort involved.

[strat6v]

Longer pedals are the only solution.