X1/9 V6

[Chris J]

I'd have left the twin cam in...:

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.alfapower.nu/viewthread.php%3Faction%3Dattachment%26tid%3D6907% 26pid%3D65756&imgrefurl=http://www.alfapower.nu/viewthread.php%3Ftid%3D6907&h=480&w=640&sz=75&hl=en&start=101&um=1&tbnid=7dQ2Qv5WDCco5M:&tbnh=103&tbnw=137&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dprototipo%2Bstratos%26start%3D100%26n dsp%3D20%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN

[Patriq Backlund]

:-)

I've been following this thread for a while (since I'm swedish...) The site is swedish.

I thought when I saw the heading that I could add a link to this thread under here - and then it turns out, that was already done !

:-)

[Chris J]

I saw an Alfa V6 engined car on the X1/9 owner's stand at the Classic and Sportscar Action Day at Castle Combe some years ago. There's a photo of it in the above thread. There was an unfinished budget conversion at the recent NEC show too.

To me, the ultimate engine for an X1/9 is a tuned 2.0 twin cam, especially as there was an Abarth version in period. You'd think an Alfa V6 engined X1/9 would loose too much of its handling for little gain in straight line performance? You could argue that a V6 fitted to a Stratos replica would have the same effect, but I think the dynamics of an X1/9 would suffer more?

[Martin K]

You'd think an Alfa V6 engined X1/9 would loose too much of its handling for little gain in straight line performance? You could argue that a V6 fitted to a Stratos replica would have the same effect, but I think the dynamics of an X1/9 would suffer more?

I can't see why?

The V6 weighs 20 Kg more than the IL4 but it is similarly positioned in the wheelbase of the car. Moving 20 kg to the front - fuel, battery etc - would restore the weight balance front/rear and keep the same or similar centre of mass.

The extra track at the rear would more than compensate in terms of cornering power for the extra weight and I would imagine the vertical c of g for both engines would be similar - so I would expect the V6 car to have more grip in a corner than the standard X1/9. The extra weight over the driven wheels should also give more traction to allow the extra power to get to the road.

[pimms]

How about this then:

http://msn.autoblog.nl/archive/2007/05/18/fiats-500-met-anabole-steroiden

[Steve Poole]

Hell yes :D :D

Even with a poor start, doesn't it just fly :D proper pocket rocket

Steve

[Chris J]

I can't see why?

The V6 weighs 20 Kg more than the IL4 but it is similarly positioned in the wheelbase of the car. Moving 20 kg to the front - fuel, battery etc - would restore the weight balance front/rear and keep the same or similar centre of mass.

The extra track at the rear would more than compensate in terms of cornering power for the extra weight and I would imagine the vertical c of g for both engines would be similar - so I would expect the V6 car to have more grip in a corner than the standard X1/9. The extra weight over the driven wheels should also give more traction to allow the extra power to get to the road.

Ok Martin, I take your point about the weight being in the right place still, and the extra traction.

I think the increase in rear track makes the car look a bit odd though?:

http://www.p1x-2000.co.uk/X19%20Experience/p1x%20view.jpg

I'm not going to be convinced that 500 is a good idea though. A good giggle, yes, but it's not going to be easy to keep straight??

[strat6v]

There are pics somewhere of a cinquecento with an aprilia mille r v twin in the back. That would sound soooo good!! :cool:

[John]

The cable gear linkage looks very suitable for a Stratos replica. Can anyone provide a translation of that particular part of the text. It looks like the source is a Toyota.
Patriq, can you help?

[CorseChris]

I thought that too John - looked pretty neat and compact. Ideal for those 6 speed box conversions.......

[Chris J]

. Ideal for those 6 speed box conversions.......

The gearbox end of the Alfa 6 speed standard cables come in at a not very ideal angle, but I think a small mechanical device could sort this out. It's the across gate lever that's the problem.

[Sptwoman]

I understand the 166 V6 gearbox is compatible with the 164 24V V6 engine. Is the 156 2.5L V6 gearbox compatible too?

[John]

I thought that too John - looked pretty neat and compact. Ideal for those 6 speed box conversions.......
Yes, indeed, but what that guy had done with his linkage seemed to me ideal for the 12v engine and box even. It looked to me as if he had done away with the sliding rod (which we all reverse in it's housing) and therefore gets away from the clutch release lever. The Toyota(?) mechanism acts straight onto the gearbox selector rod if I am seeing it right.
Ideal too for the 24v engine (where the water pipe comes straight out from between the heads and curves very close to the clutch release arm and gear linkage) as the cables are well clear of that area on the X19 photos.
I'd really like to know more.

[CorseChris]

It was a Toyota Starlet wasn't it?

[John]

It was a Toyota Starlet wasn't it?
I don't know what the Swedish for Starlet is Chris! :D

[Chris J]

Mk2 and Mk1 MR2 gear levers:

http://www.thewinchesterclub.co.uk/stick%20shift1.JPG

[strat6v]

Nice one CJ, looks like we'll all be using cable shift soon :)

[CorseChris]

I don't know what the Swedish for Starlet is Chris! :D


...this I think.....

"En Toyota starlet hade vad som behövdes." :D

[CorseChris]

All this talk of KPIs and scrub radii has got me thinking again...anyone got the basic dimensions to hand for the 132?? Wheel mounting face to intersection of KPI axis and distance from top to bottom of upright at balljoint fixings would be handy......I could revisit my calculations and see what I did.

[Chris J]

Here's a Monte:

http://www.the-car-club.co.uk/Pictures-Lancia.html

[Patriq Backlund]

...this I think.....

"En Toyota starlet hade vad som behövdes." :D

Translated it goes: "A Toyota starlet had what it took."

[Patriq Backlund]

The cable gear linkage looks very suitable for a Stratos replica. Can anyone provide a translation of that particular part of the text. It looks like the source is a Toyota.
Patriq, can you help?

Hi, been away for a couple of days.

I'll read through, and post original text toghether with translations of relevant texts. Some of the texts are just chit chat.
See if I can get something done next week. We'll be going with the family to a cabin this weekend.

This interrested me too !
What is strange is that there are suddenly no more posts after a date which I think was more than a year ago.
I'm a registered user on this forum too, so I'll try to contact him and see what's happened to the project.

Cheers !

[Patriq Backlund]

Here's a start for rough translation !

1st post:

Fiat X1/9 - 75
I KNOW this isn't an Alfa, but it is italian with an Alfa engine, so it should be allowed, or what ?? (note - it's an Alfa forum)

Short about the build: X1/9 was already rebuilt with a mildly tuned Lancia Beta twincam 2.0, (note - this is a swedish saying, translated straight off. It means that you always end up wanting more once you've started) but (having) alot wants more.....

Lancia Stratos sounds tempting, but WHERE do you find one. You don't.....
Replica ??? No that's cheating (and too expensive anyway)

What to do? V6 an a X1/9 should be fun and actually possible to register as a rebuilt vehicle. (since this year 15kw/100kg is actually allowed)
(note - specific swedish rules)

Was first thinking of a Fiat 120 or a Dino V6. Now, both are equally impossible to find, (besides a Dino V6 costs an arm) Fiat V6's has cast iron bottom, and that is also a minus

But Alfa 3.0's are perfect, light, and then I can also be in here (note - again a reference to it being an Alfa forum) (just think of that.....)

Would like an 24V but that will have to be later in that case. Anyone has one to spare ? Yes say the word......

Bring on the lift and the grinder.....

Here is the X1/9 with the Beta engine before demounting.

[Patriq Backlund]

Post 2:

Pretty tight already..... :-d

[Patriq Backlund]

Post 3

Oops.. out it came !!

[Patriq Backlund]

Post 4:

Here's a poor bastard who has just been deprived of it's best content * 3.0 V6 *
:-d

The others in the background are mourning there pal

For you who are wondering about the 164:
I was going to fix it, and have it as a daily driver. Men when I was going home after bying it in Gbg (note - short for the city of Göteborg), I had a roe deer mounted in the front. (left side), sort of lost the steam...... (And was in need of a V6)

[Patriq Backlund]

Post 15:

the member HAS to go, just the way it is....

Yes, I know I have to reinforce alot afterwards. Was thinking of doing like Abarth did on their prototiop of -73 (shall see if I can find an image....) There is a sturdy crossmember for reinforcement.

Look now it fits (note - the engine I guess)

[Patriq Backlund]

Post 16:

Does NOT....

It is to W I D E....

Well just give up then....

Just kidding, off course it comes down.
But longitudal members will have to be modified, possibly moved.

There's an Englishman (accordingly to Auto Italia magazine) who put in a V6. But he widend the whole rear section so that it got the width of the 164. But he didn't widen the front. Talk about elegal track widening (In Sweden). It can differ so much between front and rear. (note - I guess he meant 'it can ONLY differ so much.... )
Besides it's not pretty if you don't modify the WHOLE body.

So, therefor I'd prefer to keep the original look. IF it is possible....

[Patriq Backlund]

Was home with my sick daughter yesterday. So I got a few minutes to sit down and read through the thread. Will continue with the other posts later.

[Patriq Backlund]

Post 17

No, I'm not crazy (I think..)
Headers (forward) shall fit too

There's a thought (plan) for this too....

[Patriq Backlund]

Post 19
Fiat Abarth prototipo

Here's the reinforcement al'la Abarth
It'll be something similar, but thicker pipes...

[Patriq Backlund]

Post 28

Here are the new beams in place, now there's room for the header forward.
For the one wondering where the gas-tank is I can say....
it's outside my garage :-)

No, there's going to be a new one in front.... not the best place but tell me where else is there space. A racing tank should be safe enough anyway.......

[Patriq Backlund]

Post 29

Here the engine is in place with mounts and everything.
It turned out a Vo..o 240 (note - Volvo 240) mount front with selfproduced beam under the engine. Back it's the Lancia Beta mount i the same beam.
The box (note - gearbox) has an original mount with an industrial type rubber vibrations damper.
The torsionmount goes there as well, against the x-strut that will be manufactured later.

Quite unsharp image......... apologies.......

[Patriq Backlund]

Post 30

Ini, miny...

This one, or that one..........

More job with settings if I choose the Megasquirt'n Spark but fun if you want to tune (and that you want)

It's a urge one has.
Anyone tried Megasquirt on a V6 ???

[Patriq Backlund]

Post 35

Has begun with the gearlinkage,
but f**k it's NOT easy.

Am thinking that maybe wire control will be the easiest. You want a nice and smooth feeling..... not jank and push frantically

Now there's not a lot of cars with wire AND midengine. The only one I know is Pontiac Fiero....... and there's not a lot of those either.

Well well, with more thinking it'll (probably) turn out good in the end.

[Patriq Backlund]

Post 50

Went to a scrapyard today to find a suiting lever for the gearlinkage.

A Toyota starlet had what it took.

The wires will be to short and the lever will have to be mounted "back to front".
But it'll be the base for it.

[Patriq Backlund]

Post 53

Gearlinkage

Finally got some time for garage activities again. The last week I think the gearlinkage has taken the most part of my thinking,
so it was interresting to see how it turned out in "real life".

Wire control was probably the best to get, and easiest to rebuilt. The feeling in the lever was over expected.
A bit "Japs" feeling.....can it be because of Toyota maybe?? Like a joystick.

Here's an image of some of the trinkets on the box (note gearbox).
As I said som Alfa and some Toyota starlet....... (unfortunately..)

[Patriq Backlund]

Post 54

The wires where to short, but I was able to lengthen with some solid rods. The mounts ended up way back as you can see. Everything will fit under the Toyota plastic console later. It actually fitted straight in, even the handbrake will retain it's original place. But it will be lifted slightly for the linkage to run freely.

Nu you can gearshift and turn the wheel AND look happy). Pretend driving has got a new dimension.

Off course the lever will have to be shortened it is super l o n g now.

[Patriq Backlund]

Post 63

For all those who doubt....

the weight.
Check out the images that was my inspiration. And the reason it all started. It's a Lancia Stratos Stradale. If you can't afford it, I guess you can build something like it.

Even a replica is so expensive that I've given up the ideas of it.

The Lancia is 980kg and I'm counting on a similar weight when I'm done. (hoping for less..)

The cage around the engine will be the basis for my reinforcements later on.

[Patriq Backlund]

Post 77

Rust rust.......
you can't have it that way.......

My unlucky week should come to an end soon...
If it can go wrong it will. The MIG welder wouldn't cooperate today. The welding was just catastrophical at times.
Well well, without gas it won't work, apperantly there was only gas when the weldered decided it wanted to. Three hours later and a new magnetic valve......ahhhh it works !!

Here's a before image.........

[Patriq Backlund]

Post 78
And after....

Mabye not so nice.....

But what the heck, it's not going to be a car to rub wax on... it'll just melt off when the pedal meets the metal.

Race look it's going to be......

[Patriq Backlund]

Any other posts that needs translating....
?

[vindi49]

Excellent work Patriq, it all makes a lot more sense now!!
My parents lived in Sweden for 7 years (in Malmo, my dad worked at the World Maritime University) and I worked for Tenson (ski / outdoors clothing company) for a few years but my Swedish is limited to Tak and a few other words. The quality of English spoken by everyone in Sweden was so good that I did not get the chance to learn hardly any Swedish!
Russell

[John]

Thanks Patriq. The gear linkage information could be very useful.