Immitation is only good up to a point...

[JohnB_SPY8808053]

While looking through the rally forums at www.specialstage.com today, I came across a post in the vintage section that caught my attention. One of the other regulars there had posted some pictures of a 'real' Stratos that he saw at an Italian car show. The owner was trying to sell it for 50,000 USD. I immediatly recognized the car as a HF3000 QV that I had seen for sale online quite some time ago (for 33,000 USD). You might recognize it - the car is yellow, has NACA ducts on the sides and features a very un-authentic looking dash.

This really made me angry. Even if the guy wasn't trying to rip somebody off (which was my impression), things like this can really damage the generally good relationship that we as kit owners have with the people who have the real ones. All I could do was make a post that stated the truth about the car and offer information on the reproductions to anyone that was interrested. On the one hand, hopefully nobody will buy the thing thinking it is an original. On the other hand, I'd rather not have somebody running around tarnishing our image like that.

I guess I just wanted to vent a little - anybody have any thoughts or opinions?

John B.

[OZStratos]

John,
I totally agree. I know those owners lucky enough to have an original car in Australia paid a LOT of good money to get them and its a shame that some people try to pass off the replicas as original cars. I know that over the years I've set a number of people straight when they've contacted me when they found "the real thing" asking what they should look for. It's a shame to have to shoot their dreams down. When I do anything with mine I always log it as a replica, but I've found a lot of people involved in shows also like to forget this little detail as they are generally very pleased to see one show up.
Cheers
Paul Morton

[stewart]

John,

I have to agree with you and Paul. It is a pretty low act for someone to be claiming to own an original car when it isn't, but to then try and pass it off to someone else as such is far worse.

As you say, it does nothing for the credibility of replica owners when people pretend for personal gain or prestige. This pretence only fuels the disrimination of some against us. I think, and the UK guys can probably confirm this, that the reluctance of Omicron to sell parts to replica owners stemmed in part from a concern that the cars would be passed off as the genuine article.

Being such a limited vehicle there are no doubt opportunities for disreputable people to try to fool those with little knowledge and a lot of cash, and I think it important where we see circumstances of falsity, as you and Paul have, to try and set the record straight.

Like most people I think, whilst I would love an original car, I am pleased and proud to own a replica. And very pleased Gerry et al brought them into being!

Stewart

[Stratos]

I always make sure on the entry for any rally in which I compete that my car is NOT listed as a Lancia Stratos.

I normally enter it as a Corse Stratos, because most UK rally spectators who are interested in the Stratos know of both the Hawk and the Corse (but very few are aware of the Allora). That way they know which "family" of kit it came from.

AND when ever anyone talks to me about the car, I always try and make sure they realise that it is a replica, not an original.

AND, if I could ever afford an original, I'd be terrified to take it out and subject to the punishment I regularly to my replica.

[mogul_x]

John,

Is this the same yellow HF3000 QV that we have pictures of on the Yahoo site? It shows up periodically at the Carlisle show here in Pennsylvania. It must be locally owned, since a couple of the local Italian car parts vendors have mentioned it to me.

The owner is representing it as a real Stratos. When I tell people that I'm building a replica, they all say, "there's a yellow Stratos I've seen at a show recently - do you know the owner?" I don't, but I know of the car, and that's usually when I let them know it's a replica just like mine. They find it hard to believe until I point out the "tells" that separate a Hawk / Transformer from the real thing.

If I ever do run into the owner, I'll be sure to remind him that it's not a "real" Stratos, and that he's offending a lot of people by claiming that it is.

Of course, I'm going to have to remind everybody that my car is also a replica, although I hope it will be a more authentic looking fake than the yellow car.

Cheers

[Matt No VAT]

In response to Stuart's post I was unaware that Omicron were reluctant to sell Stratos parts to replica owners??

In the two years that I was looking for a Stratos kit, Andrew Cliffe contacted me twice regarding the Marlboro liveried car that he has stored at his premises, after weeks of trying to find out about the car he had for sale it turned out that some guy had sold the car as a genuine Stratos to a Japanese businessman, (bought unseen and probably for a huge amount) Only to find out that the car is in fact a replica.

I tried to explain to Andrew that even though the Japanese guy had been duped, I wasn't going to be be offering "genuine" money for a replica car to cover his loss. He never came back to me on either occaision with anything solid from the owner.

The thing that made me drop the whole idea of dealing with Omicron was that at no point did they ever state that it was a replica, that only came to light after a conversation with one of the kit manufacturers. When I mentioned that I knew of the cars somewhat chequered history to them everything went quiet with regard to hearing anything further info, so I stopped pursuing that avenue.

Maybe this is why they don't want to sell parts to replica owners?? Unless anyone knows of another reason.

[roger001]

It is possible that you are talking about Graham Bates' car, Graham was a fabricator based in Surrey, who used to make some of the parts for transformer, as Hawk was known in the late 80s. he built the car to showcase his business and it had a genuine dino engine, it was painted in Marlboro colours and had a lot of chassis mods which, made it look very "original" unfortunately the engine dropped a valve relitively soon after completion and as grahams business was in dire straights due to the then recession he sold the car on, To who I dont know .

[Matt No VAT]

It was indeed Grahams car that I was twice offered, the story goes that the car was bought by a Belgian guy who sold the car on to a Japanese buyer, he told the buyer it was a genuine car but after the sale he skipped Europe with the money and went to the USA. I was also told that this wasn't the only car he sold on as the genuine article, when in fact it wasn't, but it wasn't another Stratos.

I would hope though that anyone interested in purchasing a genuine Stratos would have done his homework first or at least have someone on hand to inspect the car before any sale was agreed or transacted.

[JohnB_SPY8808053]

I had no idea this kind of thing was so common.

I was told by someone that they had seen my Marlboro liveried Transformer at an Italian car show in California some years ago (long before I bought it). Apparently the owner was trying to convince some Japanese guy it was the real thing but I don't know if they were trying to sell the car or not. You'd have to be pretty unknowledgeable about the Stratos to fall for the scam since the car was RHD at that time. Still, it seems strangely similar to the story above. If it weren't for the fact that mine has a TC engine, I'd suspect it might be the same car you've been talking about. You did say the Dino V6 dropped a valve though - what did it get replaced with? Does anybody know what happened to the car? Is is possible that I have it?

Sorry if I'm being stupid - I've always been curious about my car's history.

John B.


PS - Here's a photo of the car in case it's helpful.

[roger001]

I cant remember wether graham bates' car was Right or left hand drive, It was probably LHD but should be recognisable from the chassis mods to the rear removable crossmember as these were reworked to look very like the original, ie not just a bar that slots in between the two brackets, but reworked with a triangular section to look very similar to the original, I think he sold the car on as he could not afford to have the engine mended, the engine mounts were very "Dino" and it is unlikely that a Beta lump could have been substituted.

[JohnB_SPY8808053]

Thanks - it's not mine then. Mine has the original plain old brace across the back.

It wouldn't have made any difference to me either way but I'm still curious about the history of my car. If anybody knows anything about it, please let me know.

John B.

[mogul_x]

All,

As far as I am aware, Omicron has no problem selling parts to replica owners. At any rate, they didn't seem reluctant to sell parts to me.

I bought sidemarker lights, nose badge, Bertone decals, and the silver "Lancia" and "Stratos" decals for the tail panel. I told them it was for a Hawk, and they didn't mention any unwillingness to sell to me. In fact, they were very freindly, and managed to get the parts 'Stateside very quickly.

About the only complaint I have about Omicron is that my order was short one Bertone decal. They didn't charge me for it, since it was out of stock, but they never sent another one along.

I should probably contact them and find out if they ever re-stocked that item.

[rutthenut]

I know a fair bit about Graham Bates' car, as I am local to him and had a couple of small jobs done by him when building my car.

His car was finished in Marlboro colour scheme and was fitted with a Dino engine. Plenty of other mods to the Hawk chassis to get closer to the original where he could do so. The engine did manage to self-destruct too and needed welding to the cylinder head, at least.

He sold the engine to Dennis (Denys?) Jones, who had it rebuilt and fitted to his car with a really neat Pirelli paint scheme. Sounds just great - looks it too.

The Marlboro car was then sold without an engine, having been idle for quite some time. This actually went to John Whalley, who (with Gerry Hawkridge) put in an Alfa V6. The car was made available for magazines as a road test car, with various other mods by John Whalley as time went by. The car has now been sprayed in a solid red colour, I believe, and is for sale if someone wants a car already fitted with an Alfa engine. Not sure of the price, details or condition though.

Hence it seems that this may well not be the car which was mentioned in relation to Omicron contacts.

I know/knew of one other Marlboro car, which was owned by Ian Stent, when he as editor of Which Kit? magazine. He bought it in a part complete condition and had it finished by Bob Pilot in Woking (he did quite a few customer builds for a while, when kit business was a bit more brisk - and profitable). This car was obviously featured in the magazine, and Ian was also a member of the Stratos Replica Club for some time.

He never was happy with the handling of his car, but I gather the suspension settings were never set up to any recommended figures, so that probably had something to do with it! Anyway, being a magazine guy, he didn't keep the completed car for long and it did get sold on.

I have a feeling that this car got sold to Japan, but I may be wrong about that. It also would have been fitted with a four-pot engine, but I do not know which type (Beta, Thema, 8v/16v, whatever). Maybe this is the car described in the other posts?


As for Omicron and replica owners, the comments I have heard (second or third hand) is not that they will not sell parts for replicas (they do) but that they are not keen for any particularly rare parts to go to non-original cars. If they have alternative sources for parts of different quality, they may also offer the lesser parts to replica owners. There aims being to ensure a supply of original parts for original cars.

Hey, their Lancia Racing site even mentions replicas and has my name in it somewhere, so they cannot be all that bad!

Cheers all,

[x19er]

John,

I saw what I believe to be your car (4 cyl. RHD) at Concourse Italiano and witnessed the owner (tall slender guy with long hair) trying to convince a group of Japanese people that it was genuine. He tried to sell the car at auction but I don't think it sold, or they called him on the originality. It was then listed for sale for around $40,000 in Autoweek and did not sell. The last time I saw the car was at a used car lot in CA for around $25k or so. They were selling it with some bogus papers as a 1967 model to get around emission laws. I talked to them and told them that as far as I knew, the Stratos did not even exist in 1967 and that the car was a replica. They hung up on me...

Who did you buy the car from? I think I have some pics from Concourse Italiano. Do you want me to scan them?

John L.

[JohnB_SPY8808053]

Yeah - that's the one. You must have mentioned seeing the previous owner before - I couldn't remember who told me that. Needless to say, I talked the car lot down quite a bit and since I bought it over the internet, there was no sales tax (yeah). I'm not sure how it happened, but the car is titled as a 1967 Lancia Stratos. The only real advantage to this is that I can pretty much run any exhaust system I want because the listed model year predates the emissions laws.

John B.

[stewart]

Hi all,

I should have known that my comment about Omicron would have raised some comment...although it was a long time coming.

I didn't meant that they wouldn't sell parts to replica owners, they did sell to me when I was over in 1997, and they were more than pleasant to deal with. They were however very keen to make sure that my car, to be fitted with their replica chassis plate could not be passed off as a replica so they stamped a big R on it. No problem for me, but they felt that the plates had been used by others to falsify cars identities in the past when they had not been so careful.

They were also very anti modifications to genuine cars. One of the three (maybe four) genuine cars in Australia has ben converted to RHD and the rear louvre has had the centre cut from it and replaced with clear perspex to allow better rear visibility. The guys were very vocal in their condemnation of these changes. I don't think that I would have done those things if I were the owner of a genuine car, you don't have to agree with it but each to their own.

I think John's comments are right. The guys will not sell rare parts to replica owners, and said as much to me, wanting to keep them for genuine cars which is fair enough. Since many of the original parts most of us don't need (engine etc) that isn't normally a problem.

cheers,

Stewart

[omicron]

Hello. Our policy on spare parts for replicas is:

• If its a reproduction item, were more than happy to supply to replica owners.

• If its an original part, but plenty in stock, again happy to supply.

• There are many parts that are only suitable for real Stratos owners as they use the proper suspension, brakes, engine etc.,

• Unreplacable original parts - we feel that first priority should be to the original car.



The Stratos replica here: Its a very very very good replica of the Stratos central tub. It is not a replica in the same way as a Hawk or Corse - but an exact copy. The owner is not easy to deal with. It seems the shell will go to Italy.

This car was sold (not by us) to the current owner as a real one, so if its happened once, it can happen again, and stamping a chassis plate with a R is one little thing to help prevent it again.

Originality: It seems a shame to do extensive work which makes the rare and valuable car non original, especially if the work is hard to undo.

Converting to fuel injection, changing the car from LHD to RHD is all very hard to undo.

Would you paint a pair of glasses or some put some fresh lipstick onto the Mona Lisa? No, of course you wouldn't.

Best wishes,

Andrew

[JohnB_SPY8808053]

Andrew - Thanks for taking the time to post an _official_ response. I think pretty much everyone here agrees that the hard to get original parts should be saved for the original cars. It's good to know we can count on you for the common and replica bits though.

As a group, the replica owners might be even more opposed to altering an original car than most. I know that after spending so much time & effort trying to make my car look more original, the idea of changing a real one just seems very wrong.

Thanks,

John B.

[omicron]

Hey, their Lancia Racing site even mentions replicas and has my name in it somewhere, so they cannot be all that bad!


Care to flesh out your name a bit.

The Lancia Racing site is for those currently using their Lancias in one form of motorsport or another. Replicas are included, and everyone is entitled to a page dedicated to them.

See www.lanciaracing.co.uk for further details.

Andrew @ Omicron

[colin artus]

Re Graham Bates car

I have posted a few pics of this car that were taken just after Graham had finished it. This was just before he pranged it at Goodwood, fixed it and then had a valve snap in the engine. The poor bloke was a bit discouraged by this!
When I last met him he was working full time for David Piper, who has a well known collection of sports/ Gt racecars.
I also found a pic of an original car sans engine so I stuck that up as well.


Colin

[rutthenut]

Originally posted by colin artus
When I last met him he was working full time for David Piper, who has a well known collection of sports/ Gt racecars.

Graham came along to the Abingdon CARnival to see the Strat's there. He indicated that he still has a workshop and may be looking to provide services to kit owners (in his spare time, at least).

[rutthenut]

Originally posted by omicron
Care to flesh out your name a bit.

Since I'm on a 'sabbatical' from racing activities, I don't have any current information of real note. I've got a web site url that I can use to put up this sort of info, but it's currently near-empty.

That's at www.rutthenut.com for anyone who cares.

I can claim to have had some good results whilst competing, with championship wins in the ACMSC sprint series and then two years running in the BRSCC Auto Italia race championship. But that was some years ago now, unfortunately. :(

Regards,

John Rutter (aka Rut the Nut)
john@rutthenut.com