1975 tour de corse

[pimms]

Has anyone some more detailed pictures of this editions Early Alitalia livery?
Its the Pinto / Bernachinni car.

[tryphon]

You didn't pic the easiset one.
Chassis 1626, initially livered Marlboro then Alitalia 1st version.
Car got stolen after San Remo 1976, unknown whereabouts since (although some people have serious suspicion on where it is).
Here's a picture of the car in Sweden, 1975 with Waldegaard:
PS: your model is wrong.

[pimms]

Hello Tryphon,

Is this Arena model correct, the Alitalia letters are green instead of black?
Do you happen to know what stickers they are on the front wheel arch ( in front and after the "Tour de Corse" letters ), looks like Esso logo?

[tryphon]

Alitalia letters should be black, Bertone logo should be gold.
It is the Esso logo.

[pimms]

Alitalia letters should be black, Bertone logo should be gold.
It is the Esso logo.

Finelly found some pictures, which confirmes this, thanks!

Tryphon, on youre car i can see red shadows on the LANCIA letters on the rear spoiler. Can't see them here, were they on a particular car, or particular race ? Or maybe my eyes are not so good :rolleyes:

[tryphon]

The sticker on my rear spoiler is incorrect in size and red drop shadows.
I had a new one made by PubbliMais.
It's in the post...

[pimms]

And another one.................., the inside of the front bonnet seems painted white, the brown would that be mud spray?
Many Gr 4 cars seem to have the inside painted black ( front and rear ), is that the right way to go?

[tryphon]

Nice picture, 1626 and 1839 together. A rare spectacle and a tribute to Darniche's performance who moved from personna non grata to superstar of the Lancia team during that event.

Some 1975 cars had metallic gray painted bodies and interior. Later cars had black.
Why are they painted black? 2 reasons mainly:
- Eliminate glare and focus driver's attention on the road
- Detect chassis damage more easily
Both the above cannot be fulfilled as easily with metallic gray paint.

Later Lancia cars (Integrales/037/S4) reverted to gray metallic paints as did the Michelotto cars.

Behold the picture of 1832 in gray metallic interior:

[strat6v]

the vk car is painted a dark metallic grey colour inside too.

[tryphon]

The VK car is not a Stratos.

[catswhiskers]

Nor does it run on REPLICA coffin spokes.

[jadefarms]

A little closer to the correct one maybe...

[tryphon]

Nor does it run on REPLICA coffin spokes.

All the cars running today do so on replica coffin spokes unless the owners have suicidal tendencies or just parade, your highness.

[tryphon]

A little closer to the correct one maybe...

Not very close either, white Bertone logo with script, green Alitalia font, SMO sticker, are all wrong.

[jadefarms]

Tweaked a bit... :)

[kolynos]

The VK car is not a Stratos.

What is it then???

[tryphon]

All its suspension parts are nothing like Stratos, its engine ignition, fuel pumps, reservoirs, brakes, instruments, roll-cage, electrics, ..., are nothing like Stratos.
Choose a name for it yourself.
This car couldn't get anywhere near an FIA race...

[Swamprat33]

Hmmm. I think you are being a little harsh Tryphon.

Surely. you would have to say the same for ANY classic car that is trying to be competitive nowadays. Most of the MK1 & MK2 Escorts rallied these days use Duratec or Cosworth engies with modern suspension, 6 speed trick gearboxes. I am sure they will also be running with modern ECU other such components.

All of these cars are still Ford Escorts and all meet the resrtictions imposed by the classes they compete in.

I am fully aware that you have completed what looks to be a fantastic conversion of your Stradale to what i believe to be a full GRP4 spec, but you are not seriously competing in a championship against other cars. There is no way that a 35 year old unmodified rally car could be in any way reliable or competitive these days against anything unless it is in a specific class designed for totally original cars.

Now, given the scarcity of totally genuine original cars and that many genuine original factory supplied parts are no longer available, this is clearly not viable.

As far as I am concerned, there is no difference between your car and the VK car. Both were converted from Stradales to GRP4, except that Steve competes in his car at a high level and you play in yours.

The VK car, I agree no longer uses some of the original components, but Steve is using items that suit the way he drives and it is pretty competitive. It is great to see it competing on rally stages and he is keeping the image of the Stratos alive by using it at public events.

I normally enjoy reading your posts here because thay are often very interesting, but every so often you start talking utter s**t :rolleyes:

We are all interested in the Stratos, and don't mind if it is real, replica, modified etc.

Tim

[tryphon]

That car does not use any of the components homologated for use in a Stratos, hence no FIA backed races.
Many other cars (Bianchini for instance) are very much more competitive, Bianchini was 2nd in this year's FIA championship, and don't run Christmas trees.
You don't need to be a purist to know that Kevlar is not at it's place in a Stratos.
The same applies for the lumenition ignition system, the complete fuel system etc.
What is left of the Stratos spirit? Nada.
Am I the one pointing this issue? No, the FIA will not accept the car.

This used to be a nice car with competition history, I've known it for years. Unfortunately some owners have no taste or automotive/Stratos culture. Why should it be my problem?

You don't agree, it's your problem.

[catswhiskers]

Tim, And most everyone else for that matter,

You may as well forget it. You're never going to get the last word. :mad:

Mick

[kolynos]

That car does not use any of the components homologated for use in a Stratos, hence no FIA backed races.
Many other cars (Bianchini for instance) are very much more competitive, Bianchini was 2nd in this year's FIA championship, and don't run Christmas trees.
You don't need to be a purist to know that Kevlar is not at it's place in a Stratos.
The same applies for the lumenition ignition system, the complete fuel system etc.
What is left of the Stratos spirit? Nada.
Am I the one pointing this issue? No, the FIA will not accept the car.

This used to be a nice car with competition history, I've known it for years. Unfortunately some owners have no taste or automotive/Stratos culture. Why should it be my problem?

You don't agree, it's your problem.




My apoligies if i am incorrect but doesnt the Roger Albert Clark rally run under F.I.A. regulations. I know that all historic entered cars should be running as close to original spec as possible.Mk1 Escorts with B.D.A. engines.Z.F.boxes,Atlas axles brakes & suspension etc.Safety issues could be different for obvious reasons.....

[tryphon]

http://www.fia.com/sport/Sporting_Calendars/Rally_2007/2007.html

[Sptwoman]

I wonder if Pimm has enough pics for his Early Alitalia livery? :rolleyes:

[GaryFitz]

Everybody has individual tastes and desires. For what it is worth I took the decision to leave 1637 as I bought it in fully restored condition. I beleive it to be as close to original as it could be given it has been fully restored. It only does demo runs and the wheels are regularly crack tested, but I agree with Typoon, old magnesium rims are not something I would go into battle with. I also realize that 1637 never had a 24v engine, but it does now, so it is not entirely original or true to the specification it ran, but what I wont do is modify it to meet current FIA requirements, in my opinion to do so would unreasonably destroy the car beyond all the history that has already been lost during its restoration.

To overcome this problem, you will recollect that I bought a Sratdale that I am having upgraded and built to Group 4 specs, however this car will comply with current FIA SAFETY standards, and therefore I fully accept that it is not built to original group 4 spec but to a hybrid set of rules that allow it to compete in modern FIA events....and that is ok with me. BTW the car is nearing completion. What this car wont have is modern ignition, dampers, brakes etc and therefore will never be competitive against the VK, but that is my choice and I am happy with that.

To also demonstrate that I am not a complete originality nut, both of my 240Z marathon cars run modern parts to teh limit of what is allowed under those rules, in fact you would say these cars are 240Z only in name.

This debate of originality verses competitive upgrades in my mind is moot, as it just depends on what you want and what you can afford, but for whetever it is worth, I do beleive that people who own cars of historical significance are simply custodians of that history for a period of time and there is some moral obligation to preserve it, that is why my GT40, the 037, the group A Delta, the Stratos, the RSR Le Man Porsche, the GT350R, and the Allard are all kept in as close to original condition as I can keep them.

1637 is in Alitalia livery, and I recollect that somebody has many pictures of her posted in the picture gallary on this site, not sure if it is an early version of the livary or not, but I think it is, and FYI all hidden surfaces are painted black.....not that that proves anything.

[tryphon]

Gary, the FIA doesn't require modern safety standards to be implemented for historic racing. This would be absurd and would denature the cars. Imagine a 250 GTO or a GT40 with modern roll cages, 3 way adjustable suspensions, water cooled brakes, etc.
The cars that take part in historic races need to comply to the FIA homologation sheet of their manufacturer for the category they race in.
If anyone was to modify anything to make it safer, better, faster, more reliable there would be no stopping.
If you race a vintage car race it as it is supposed to be.
If you race a Stratos don't make a Lanciaru Strateza or a Mitsulanci Strater Evo because they are better in whatever way.
Those who do not comply to such rules cannot take part in historic races but can in modern ones or nont FIA sanctioned ones. In this latter case why then drive a vintage car and not a modern one?
Because you like it better or it looks better? Because people think they are seeing the real thing?

But don't listen to me, go over to: http://www.fia.com/sport/Regulations/histrally.html
and have a look at the documents therein especially Annexe K and Annexe J.

The debate is not on originality, I think, but more on compliance with what a car is supposed to be and what it is not supposed to be.

In short: you want modern solution and standards, go for modern. You want historic racing and races, what you're driving needs to comply with what it should be.

[Martin K]

Checking through the FIA appendix K it seems that there is a good deal of latitude in some of the areas that the VK car has 'differences' from the original Stratos specification. These are covered under Articles: 6.3 - Suspension 6.5 - Ignition 6.7 - Fuel system, 6.8 - Instruments and 6.11 - Brakes. Even the bodywork is covered under 6.13. As the body of the Stratos is from reinforced plastic I can't see ant problem with the type of reinforcement used being Kevlar fibres rather than glass - certainly Appendix K does not rule this material out.

A car with modifications carried out within the limits set by Appendix K therefore is compliant with what the FIA regulations agree the car should be and can compete on FIA events. Whether the VK car is modified within these limits or not I have no idea - but possibly it is?

[tryphon]

Let's see now:
6.3.1 The points to which suspension elements are attached to the
chassis frame must not differ in dimension or position from the
period specification. Beam and live axles and the system of
location must be to period specification

Longer/different suspension arms do not comply

6.5.4 Ignition coil, condenser, distributor or magneto make are free
provided that they conform to the manufacturer’s specification of
the model concerned

Changing the ignition system to optical pick-up does not comply

6.8.1 Electronic instrumentation must be period specification,

Not the case on the specific car

6.11.1 Brake components must be entirely to period specification of the
model with the exceptions described here after.

etc.

[chris.richard]

Tim, And most everyone else for that matter,

You may as well forget it. You're never going to get the last word. :mad:

Mick

What he said! :rolleyes:

[Martin K]

Let's see now:
6.3.1 The points to which suspension elements are attached to the
chassis frame must not differ in dimension or position from the
period specification. Beam and live axles and the system of
location must be to period specification

Longer/different suspension arms do not comply

6.5.4 Ignition coil, condenser, distributor or magneto make are free
provided that they conform to the manufacturer’s specification of
the model concerned

Changing the ignition system to optical pick-up does not comply

6.8.1 Electronic instrumentation must be period specification,

Not the case on the specific car

6.11.1 Brake components must be entirely to period specification of the
model with the exceptions described here after.

etc.


The point is - and I'm sure you will agree - that clearly a car does not have to be exactly as it was when it left the factory or as it competed in period in order to comply with FIA rules and regulations, as Appendix K allows some latitude.

[tryphon]

It does allow latitude for non-performance related and difficult to apply aspects.
It does not allow changes that enhance reliability, performance, deviate from the basic car structure and/or homologation.
Like:
You have trouble finding Weber carbs->fit a modern fuel injection
You find the homologated suspension parts not strong enough->make new of different design, stonger, longer, ...

Of course it is difficult for a car to be 100% identical to what it was 30 or 50 years ago. It is however easy to avoid materials like Kevlar, carbon, titanium, maram, nimonic, ..., on such cars.

[SUSIT]

It does allow latitude for non-performance related and difficult to apply aspects.
It does not allow changes that enhance reliability, performance, deviate from the basic car structure and/or homologation.
Like:
You have trouble finding Weber carbs->fit a modern fuel injection
You find the homologated suspension parts not strong enough->make new of different design, stonger, longer, ...

Of course it is difficult for a car to be 100% identical to what it was 30 or 50 years ago. It is however easy to avoid materials like Kevlar, carbon, titanium, maram, nimonic, ..., on such cars.


The events Steve runs the car in all allow these mods, its his car, his money and his life, so go for it this weekend Its all Stratos to 99.9% of us but what really counts is enjoying yourself the way you want to and f--k the rest of us.
As a great man once said you aint here for a long time, your here for a good time.
RIP Colin

[tryphon]

Hey I didn't know you were into philosophy, great.

In any case the easiest thing to do is to accept that each individual has his/her own opinions on any subject. Whether these opinions are based of fact and/or knowledge is a wholly different matter.

Since you're into philosophy there's another guy that once said:
"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven"

[SUSIT]

[QUOTE=tryphon]Hey I didn't know you were into philosophy, great.

In any case the easiest thing to do is to accept that each individual has his/her own opinions on any subject. Whether these opinions are based of fact and/or knowledge is a wholly different matter.

Still after the last word :D :D :D

[Bernie]

Reading the sh*te that Tryphone is saying here is pissing me off. at least Steve Perez will be out this weekend thrashing his STRATOS around the Scottish & Yorkshire Forest unlike some micky mouse colectors who keep there car tucked away in a heated garage probably because they can't drive the car,

Steve will be out entertaining the huge crowd that will be at the RAC and if you go to service expect a que six deep around his car.

Im pissed of with all this rubbish about not being original and most coming from nob ends who think a Stratos should remain as it left the factory.

I would love to say my peace but my Scottish Language would not be allowed.


Anyway I'm off to Forest of Ae to see Perez and his wonderfull Stratos but will be shouting for last years winner the great Jimmy McRae


Have a nice day no doubt you will have a say

[kolynos]

Hear..Hear......

[Bernie]

tryphon has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - 1975 tour de corse - in the Stratos Forum forum of Lancia Stratos Forums.

Here is the message that has just been posted:
***************
Last words: The less you know the happier you are -> Hey look, a Stratos!!!
***************



What A :censored:
Enough Said

[tryphon]

Politeness is not one of your qualifications my friend.
I never attack people personally because they don't think the way I do.
I defend my opinion as I think I am entitled to and abstain from personal attacks which would be the easiest thing to do on here, trust me on this.

Ciao.

[Sptwoman]

Possibly too many female hormones?? I suppose it'll be a "vote me off the site" next!! :D It's a cold time of the year to have an empty pram!! :p

[SUSIT]

Possibly too many female hormones?? I suppose it'll be a "vote me off the site" next!! :D It's a cold time of the year to have an empty pram!! :p



No no its much more fun if he stays :D :D
Being an owner of an original I worship the ground he stands on ;)

[Bernie]

Bla Bla Bla Tryphon lets cut the crap.
1. You ain't my friend
2. Thank god the guys on this forum don't think the way you do
3. *************************

PS

Luv your CV on rallycars.com niceeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[chris.richard]

I think we should keep the forum for debate, rather than slanging matches.
We can debate that on another thread if you feel the need, but this one is now closed!

Chris