Auto-electrician deserately required

[Matt No VAT]

I admit defeat !!!

Despite replacing both headlight motors and the diodes, they are once again back to............... up, down, up, down...............repeat until battery goes flat.....'kin things!

I no longer care who fixes this or how much it costs, I just want the damn things to work properly. So if anyone can recommend an auto electrician - preferably a mobile one I would be most grateful. This is holding up my MOT and thus my attendance at Abingdon.

Two/three weeks ago I installed a new motor, and everything worked fine. I refitted the rear canopy after refitting the spoilers etc and the lights are back to thier up, down, up down business again.

I'm fed up with this one - so its time for an expert!

I'm based near Heathrow & J13 of M25 if that helps.

[Andrew Way]

Matt,

Why not disconnect the power to the motors and fix them in the up position for the MOT?

Andrew.;)

[Matt No VAT]

Hi Andrew,

I had thought of that but as the wiring for the headlights left a lot to be desired I'd rather get it sorted properly...... hence my looking for the elusive auto electrician. The cars had too many "work-arounds" in the past and I'm trying to avoid doing this type of thing.

Once I have everything working as it should do, then I have to start making it permanent and looking nice.

Cheers

[rutthenut]

I'd certainly go for the same suggestion of fixing the lights in the 'up' position for the MOT test. Particularly if this is the only thing stopping you from putting the car through the test.

Should just be a case of getting motor to stop (!) in the up position and then disconnecting the wiring harness, or removing fuse/relay as applicable.

You then have less pressure on time or money to arrange to fix things 'properly', and if you get an MOT pass it means you can legally drive it where you like, including the premises of an auto electrician if it really does come down to that.

[roger001]

Or even use the knob at the bottom of the motors to raise them mannualy.

[stewart]

Matt,

Just a thought on the headlight motors.

My auto electrician and I spent a bit more time on mine yesterday as I have been having similar up and down problems. We replaced the diodes, and he had placed a relay in the loom, one only, but he assures me it will suffice to do what the two relay option written about in the club magazine ages ago does.

We also pulled off the facia plate to check the micro switches which are fine, although we plled out a bit of 'gunk' to clean up the tracks.

Solution was to adjust a little screw on the top of the motor which affects the load on the motor itself. My auto electrician assures me this will not harm the motors, and it instantly stopped one motor running on, and the other I am still adjusting little by little.

The problem apparently is that either the amount of current is too high, or the motor is too strong for the gap in the contact plates for the micro switches and although the motor hiccups and tries to stop, it continues to run on.

This is a summary of the auto electricians explanation so if someone tells me he is wrong I'm open to listen.

Whatever, at the moment my light problem is pretty well fixed.

Fingers crossed!

cheers,

[Matt No VAT]

My car failed its MOT on 5 things yesterday, two of which were the headlights, one too high and one too low - no surprise there as they've been tweeked and pulled about a fair bit.

The rest of the failure points are fairly simple fixes, but I've now reached a point with the electrics, where I'm reduced to "the last acts of a desperate man" and will be opening up the motors to clean up the tracks and now possibly adjust the screw. Something I've tried to avoid, but things can't get any worse with these lights!! LOL

I've even considered looking into whether MR2 headlight motors could be used (Japanese manfacturing, more reliable, better built and not 15 - 20 years old !!)

[Matt No VAT]

Originally posted by stewart

Solution was to adjust a little screw on the top of the motor which affects the load on the motor itself. My auto electrician assures me this will not harm the motors, and it instantly stopped one motor running on, and the other I am still adjusting little by little.



Stewart, at least I'm not alone with this, I checked my spare motor tonight and I'm assuming your referring to the plastic screw (its plastic on mine) that adjusts the load on the motor.

Have you worked out which way things should be adjusted? (Save me re-inventing the wheel!!!)

I'm assuming from your post that your reducing the load on the motor to stop them from running on?

Counter clockwise = More load
Clockwise = Less load

or

Counter clockwise = Less load
Clockwise = More Load

Cheers

Matt

[stewart]

Matt,

I'll try and get to have a look at the screw today, but I thought mine was metal. It is on the top/side (when fitted) of the the motor.

My understanding was that the screw was to be tightened to increase the load, so that when the contacts hit the 'dead' zone on the surface which is supposed to stop them they are more likely to stop than keep going with the momentum gained by going up or down.

So, it was clockwise to tighten or increase load (on mine, but given the seemingly endless variations in these motors in length and size of linkages etc, who knows on yours!)

I'd say adjust a little and see what happens. If it doesn't work, a little more. As I say, with one of mine it was a half turn and bingo. The other is a little more annoying and I'll havea bit more of a play on the weekend.

Good luck!

[Matt No VAT]

Cheers Stewart, this is most valuable info. Sunday will be the next time I get to have a bash at sorting this plus the other little niggles that it failed its MOT test on.

Cheers

[guy mayers]

Ok guys, is this how Fiat stopped the lamps doing silly things?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=6763&item=2414735565


Guy

[stewart]

Hey Guy,

I've got two of them in my parts pile downstairs but never knew what they were...I might go and have a look in an X1/9 and see how they are positioned, but I don't seriously think I'll be fitting one....

[rutthenut]

Not sure about the lamp stops, but there are plenty of other X1/9 parts listed in the brochure available at the following site:

http://www.laursen-online.dk/x1-9/02cat/index.html

The brochure from the Monte Hospital is useful too for some dash parts, etc. http://www.montehospital.co.uk


As for the headlamp problem, I thought that the wiring setup for the motors used some form of regenerative braking effect to try and stop them in the correct place - in the same way as the self-parking feature of wiper motors prevents run-on.

I did a write-up on my investigations into this for the newsletter once, but hadn't thought it through for application in the headlamp motors, which are clearly much more complicated, with diodes and extra relays. Is that likely to be the solution?

[David May]

I've not seen a Stratos wiring diagram, but generally any electric motor which requires accurate positioning needs braking. The classic wiper motor simply uses the parking contact to short-circuit the armature, stopping it very quickly in the final position. If simply unpowered, the inertia causes considerable run-on which varies considerably with load and friction.

I assume that the Stratos diodes are in the relay coil path and not directly carring the full motor current.

Dave May

[CorseChris]

Chaps,

Sorry to dissapoint, but the only way to fully and correctly sort this is to fit relays exactly as per FIAT did on the X 1/9. The half-way method is still flawed - David is right - you MUST brake each motor to make it stop in the right place and this requires one relay per motor plus a steering relay.

The point about the adjusting screw is valid, assuming your particular motor has one - some don't have this backlash adjustment.

If the motors have been wired in the past with motor current passing throught he internal switches then you still face the possibility that they are also a source of problems.

End of sermon.

I am happy to help anyone re-wire their car if they are happy to bring it to me.

[Stratos]

Originally posted by CorseChris
I am happy to help anyone re-wire their car if they are happy to bring it to me.

Even a one which has red wire for every wire on the car?

[Matt No VAT]

Chris,

I may take you up on the re-wire. Just got to get her through the MOT re-test tomorrow.

Eletronics just ain't my thing.

Cheers

[rutthenut]

Matt,

Have you made any progress on this problem yet?

And have you sorted the car enough for the MOT, maybe with lamps fixed in the 'up' position?

I could probably arrange to come and spend some time on this with you if that would help - although I'm not an electrician, I've been able to get my car electrics to work, and two minds working together ought to help get results.


Edited to add:

Oops, didn't see the next page of responses on this topic!
Anyway, let us know how you get on and then perhaps I'll pay you a visit.

[CorseChris]

Originally posted by Stratos


Even a one which has red wire for every wire on the car?


As long as you promise not to hold your breath while I do it :D

[CorseChris]

Originally posted by Matt No VAT
Chris,

I may take you up on the re-wire. Just got to get her through the MOT re-test tomorrow.

Eletronics just ain't my thing.

Cheers

Matt,

That was a serious offer by the way - shouldn't take too long to retrofit the necessary relays etc, especially if I had a wee bit of advanced warning so I could get some of the work done beforehand.

I am near Worcester BTW so not too far away.


Chris

[stewart]

Chris,

I hate to ask you to repeat yourself, but I really want to make sure I am prepared for future problems.

You say one relay per headlight and that is what I was going on when I last visited my auto electrician. He claims that the one relay he has installed in my very expensive custom loom will do exactly what two will do given the way it is wired.

Is this possible or is he just trying to fob me off as I keep getting him to 'fix' things he has not done properly previously?

Presently my lights are working fine after a clean of the contacts and the adjustment of the adjusting screw, but we all know that they can decide to go haywire whenever they feel like it.

If you think there is no way anything other than 2 relays will work properly in the long run I will get get two relays in somehow.

cheers,

[CorseChris]

Hi Stewart,

No worries!

I am not certain how your car is currently wired of course, but as long as it matches the diagram that Roger Donan did way back (found here http://www.stratossupersite.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=388&papass=&sort=1&thecat=513 ) then it will be fine. The vital thing is that each motor has it's own relay to control the actual motor current and regen braking, and that the only current passing through the diodes and switches is relay coil current, not motor current.

If your setup has one relay for both, then there is no way that I can see how it's going to be totally reliable - it will depend on both motors reaching the same place at the same time. I am always open to being corrected of course!

The FIAT X 1/9 wiring is complicated by the addition of relays to control the up/down demand lines and to control the way the headlights work in relation to sidelights. These parts are sort of optional as they only change the way the the demand for up or down is generated, not how the motors respond to that demand.

Other issues are backlash and clearance inside the gearbox as already covered, and possible previous damage to the internal switch componets. I bring this up as I found one of my stock of motors had been used in this way before and the switch contacts were badly overheated. Also watch out that the switch terminals don't move in the plastic when replacing diodes.

Hope this helps some.

Cheers

Chris