Rose Jointed Suspension Questions - Part II

[JohnB_SPY8808053]

Ok - after reading your descriptions, I went out and gave the car's suspension a thorough looking over. (Well - as thorough as I could in the dark after a 16 hour work day.) Here's what I've found.

Front Tie Bar:
It looks like aluminum (metallic silver-grey with no rust) is certainly stainless or some alloy. The front end attaches to car via. a length of threaded rod that attaches to a rubber compression fitting bolted through the chassis. The threaded rod looks like it could be removed from the tie bar and replaced with a rose joint. The back end is flattened and attaches to the hub with a simple bolt.

Front A-Arm:
Is made from the same stuff as the tie bar. It has a rose joint at the outer end (on the hub) with a rubber cover over it. The inside faces of the inner ends (where the bolt runs through them and the shock absorber) look like they have an inner metal ring but I don't see any nylon or rubber at all.

Lower Front Arm:
Unlike the rest of the suspension, this piece is flat black. It is made from a tube with a slight bend that has a bracket mounted to the outer end. It looks like the outer end is connected by a large rose joint. The inner mount is impossible to see clearly. From what I could see, it resembled a bigger version of the inner front A-Arm attachments. I could not tell if there was any nylon, rubber, etc.

Rear Tie Bar:
It is made from the same stuff as the front tie bar & A-Arm but is larger in diameter. The outer end connects to the hub with an exposed rose joint and the inner end can't be seen clearly. The inner end looks exactly like the inner front A-Arm attachments. I did not see any nylon, rubber etc. but didn't get a great look at it.

Rear A-Arm:
Is made from the same stuff as the front tie bar and A-Arm. Differs from the front A-Arm in that the tubing is oval in cross section and it has a cross brace (the front is round with no cross brace). All of the ends resemble the inner attachments of the front A-Arm. I could not see any rubber or nylon on any of the attachments.

I'll be taking the whole mess apart in a few weeks anyway but it would be nice to know what I've got (or not). If anybody can tell me anything from these descriptions, I'd appreciate it. What I'm really wondering is - should I be seeing the nylon bushings or are they hidden by the mounting with a metal ring at their outer ends?

Thanks,

John B.


PS - Sorry if these are stupid questions - I've never disassembled a suspension before.

[JohnB_SPY8808053]

Upon further examination, it appears that the metal rings present on the front A-arms have some kind of black rubber on either side of them. Maybe I should just stop guessing, take the hubs off and see what the busings actually look like. I wanted to order new shocks & struts next week. If I'm going to order suspension bits, I need to figure it out before then so I can have it all shipped together.

On a postiive note, I got some more work done on the dash tonight.

Thanks again for all your help.

John B.

[roger001]

Sound like a standard early spyder chassis set up same as mine, (see pic under shoks and struts for view of upper fromt wish bone inner).
the joints will have thin rubber type bushes, replaced on later chassis by the larger nylatron type bushes/rose joints.
The problem with these bushes is that they deteriorate and the rubber gets squeezed out of the joints which introduces play, especialy in the rear outer joints.
I have replaced this with the later type lower rear wishbone and will slowly replace or modify the others as time and money allow. If you replace it all at one go it's a lot of money!

[chris.richard]

Rose-joint at inner end

[chris.richard]

Forgot the picture!

[chris.richard]

Think I need to improve the picture quality a bit! Sorry.

[mogul_x]

John,

Here's a description of my car's suspension components, which probrably represent the latest spec from Gerry:

Front Tie Bar:
Black Powder coated steel. The front end attaches to car via a large rose joint bolted to brackets on the chassis. The back end is flattened and attaches to the hub with a simple bolt.

Front A-Arm:
Black powder coated steel. It has a rose joint at the outer end (on the hub) with a rubber cover over it. The inner ends (where the bolt runs through them and the shock absorber) have a steel sleeve running through a nylatron bushing (looks like black delrin) which is pressed into the end of the control arm.

Lower Front Arm:
Black Powder coated steel. It is made from a tube with a slight bend that has a bracket mounted to the outer end. Outer end uses a Fiat 124 lower ball joint. The inner mount is a large, rubber booted rose joint.

Rear Tie Bar:
Black Powder coated steel. Similar to A-Arm but larger in diameter. The outer end connects to the Rear A-Arm with an exposed rose joint. The inner end has a nylatron bush similar to the inner end of the front upper control arm.

Rear A-Arm:
Black Powder coated steel. Generally similar to your description, except that the inner end is a large rose joint. Outer end appears to be nylatron bushed, as per inner end of front upper control arm.

I think John Rutter mentioned something about the rear tie bar being rose jointed at both ends, but I'm wondering if that was something that was custom made. I wouldn't mind having rose joints at both ends of the tie rods - with one of them being left-hand threaded so it could be adjusted like a turnbuckle.

Hope this helps,

[colin artus]

Those mystery metal/rubber bushings are 'metalastik' bushes and are used on the old Lotus Elan. That car was a fair bit lighter so that will have contributed to their longevity.

Colin

[roger001]

Their longevity has been pretty good, the ones that needed replacing were the outer bushes on the rear lower wishbone, the others are still in reasonable condition despite their years, 15yrs old now!
I should also mention that I changed the front tie bar rubbers which I believe are off a mini, for similar but nylatron mini bushes which are readily available, and much stiffer than the rubber and an alternative to going down the rose joint route.

[Stratos]

My Allora has been converted to have rose joints on all the rear suspension pickup points, and has left hand and right hand joints so that the toe-in can be easily adjusted.

If any of you are contemplating converting to rose joints, just make sure that you buy the strongest you can get. I've had 2 suspension failures which have been due to using under-strength rose joints. Anything less than 15,000 lbs stress rating is too weak, and will fail eventually.

[JohnB_SPY8808053]

Thanks for all the feedback. That is exactly what I needed to see / hear. Sounds to me like I need all of the following:

Upgraded Front Lower Arm & Rose Joints
Rose Joint for Front Tie Bar
Rear A-Arm & Rose Joints
Front Anti-Sway Bar
Rear Anti-Sway Bar

I think that for now, I'll just ask Gerry if I can get some new nylon bushes for the parts I've got. Then I can keep them for spares when I get the rose jointed parts later this year.

Thanks again for all the help!

John B.

[colin artus]

If you know someone who can TIG weld or can do it yourself then converting the suspension parts to rodends is quite simple. The threaded bushes to mount the rodends can be got cheaply from a race shop.
For strength and lightness captive spherical bearings are much better than rodends but they do complicate the provision of adjustability.

Colin

[JohnB_SPY8808053]

That's a good idea Colin but being in the States, I really don't mind having some spares on hand in case I need them.

One more thing just occurred to me. Seems like the new parts are all black (powdercoat) and the old parts are all silver (anodized). Does anybody know if this is true for the the old lower front arm. Since that is the only black piece I've got, I was wondering if it might be the upgraded part.

John B.

[roger001]

The lower front arm and also tie bar in my case were originaly supplied in black, as far as I know they were never provided in the silver nickel coating

[roger001]

Originally posted by colin artus
If you know someone who can TIG weld or can do it yourself then converting the suspension parts to rodends is quite simple. The threaded bushes to mount the rodends can be got cheaply from a race shop.
For strength and lightness captive spherical bearings are much better than rodends but they do complicate the provision of adjustability.

Colin

Colin, do you know if a there is a spherical joint that will fit the forward end of the rear tie bar as a replacement for the current bush, mine is an early version with a large metalastic type bush fitted, as opposed to the smaller ones fitted to the wishbones at the front and rear.

[JohnB_SPY8808053]

Roger - are you saying that you have the old style lower front arm and that it is black? My front tie bar is silver so they must have been offered in that finish at some point.

Thanks,

John B.

[colin artus]

Originally posted by roger001


Colin, do you know if a there is a spherical joint that will fit the forward end of the rear tie bar as a replacement for the current bush, mine is an early version with a large metalastic type bush fitted, as opposed to the smaller ones fitted to the wishbones at the front and rear.

I think the bolt is 1/2 inch dia so the spherical bearing will be 1/2 inch bore which means an OD of 1 inch and a width of 1/2 inch. Unless you use a high angularity bearing(not necessary in this application) this sizing applies to all brands. I cant recall but I would think that the existing bearing sleeve is 1 inch ID.
The bearing is staked to a 45 degree chamfer, machined into both ends of the bearing housing, by a simple tool mounted in a press.

Re suspension finishes: When Spyder were making these components everything except the lower front arms was nickel plated. When Safety Devices took over production everything was powder coated. Because the number of suspension sets exceeded the number of chassis Spyder made (spares etc) some few kits with Safety Devices chassis might have had some plated items.

Colin

[roger001]

Originally posted by JohnB_SPY8808053
Roger - are you saying that you have the old style lower front arm and that it is black? My front tie bar is silver so they must have been offered in that finish at some point.

Thanks,

John B.

See Colins reply, yes my lower front arms were originaly supplied in black, strangely so were my front tie rods.

Colin

I will investigate and report back on supply of spherical bearings to suit the rear tie rods.

[Chris J]

I noticed that the Hawk Transformer standard (NON rose joint) front tie rod bush set up was similar to a Mini's, and was more certain when I read Roger's comments on this thread.

The tie rod bushes on my car really did need renewing, so I got a set that 'Minispares' recommend; Two poli bushes at the front (with thick washer) and two ordinary rubber ones behind (see photo attached).

[rutthenut]

Seems a good upgrade. Mind you, the 'rear' bush is the one that gets put under most load when braking, which is when you will need the most front wheel control. If they were 'the other way around' it might be better still.
Having said that, the compliance from the rubber bush might be nicer for normal road use - with little to worry about when braking as it isn't going to move much at all really, is it?

[Chris J]

No John

The bushes ARE the right way round.

I had to think about it for a while, myself.

When the brakes are applied, the car goes forward, the wheels (and tie rod) are dragged backwards putting pressure on the FRONT bush, washer and nut. 'Tie rod is pulled not pushed.

You're right about road cars never being driven in anger. The trouble is, I've seen what a few stage rallies have done the original front tie rod bushes and I'm reacting to that. The bushes are so cheap in any case, it's worth a try.