Alfa 164 Barkes (brakes)

[AndyH]

Hi,

Got my car back from getting the suspension set-up.... 18 hours it took them to set.. Ouch. Not drives well.

Brakes still a major concern..

I've alfa 164 calipers front and back with new discs and pads.
No servo and I've really only got a 1:1 lever from push rod to cylinder, so no mechanical advantage.

Has anyone else got this set-up, and if so, have you experienced similar problems and how did you fix??

Softer pads are an option if anyone can recommend.?

As a question for SVA... what brake testing / driving is done.
Do I do all the pedal pushing for the test, or does one of the SVA lads do it??

Worried !

Andrew

[AndyH]

"Not drives well" should read Now drives well!!

[Swamprat33]

What pedal box and master cylinder(s) are you using Andy, also are you using 1 or 2 master cylinders.

If only 1, then I believe standard advice is to fit a servo.
Think there has been previous threads regarding small and or remote servos that can be used.

No experience os SVA, but I am sure that Mick or Rob can oblige.

Cheers

Tim

[AndyH]

Hi Tim,

Two cylinders... 0.75 and 0.7 as previous threads / cars.

I hadn't picked up the threads on remote servos... I'll have a look.

Andrew

[Bob]

Hi Andy, I've got Alfa 3.0ltr calipers front and back with 'grale front discs and Thema turbo rears, but I have a servo as well. Stops fine, but I would like a lttle more instant "bite", they really do need a hefty shuv to get the most from them. I was wondering about fitting a bigger master cylinder as the present one is the one the car had when I bought it (132 0r Beta cylinder I'm guessing). Anybody any experience?.

Bob.

[Matt No VAT]

I have the same set up as Bob, tried it without a servo = :eek: scary :eek:

With the servo connected up = :D much safer :D

[Bob]

Hi Matt, have you retained the single 132(?) master cylinder as well?.

Bob

[Chris J]

Related thread:

http://www.stratossupersite.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1821&highlight=servo+shove

[catswhiskers]

Hi Andy,

Sorry to add to your concern but on the SVA you dont get in the car. The inspector does ALL the testing.
Regarding the brake tests, these are done on calibrated rollers and the inspector wears a 'pressure pad' under his shoe to measure the 'actual' ammount of pressure needed to acheive the required braking force.
As you will appreciate, this is quite a technical exercise but, it's for your safety! :)
I also have Alfa 164 calipers and discs all round which I found lacked any real feel (although they did pass the SVA (just) :rolleyes:
I've since fitted a twin circuit remote servo from Staffordshire Vehicle Components. Brilliant piece of kit too. It's only a 2:1 ratio and it gives enough feel without being too sensitive.
Best of luck :)

Mick

[AndyH]

Hi,

I've just been looking at the lever mechanism... If I move the central and bottom pivot point up carca 16mm I get 33% mechanical advantage... Must help.. The impact of this will be that I'll be pushing on the cylinders at an angle... Anyone have any experience of this?

Andrew

[strat6v]

plus a similar percentage in pedal travel :eek:

Twin circuit servo is the way to go Andy, unless you do a complete redesign of the pedal box etc.

[AndyH]

John,

I don't disagree, but my SVA is in 4 weeks time!

Sods law being what it is I've got stuff on most weekends between now and then.

Anything is possible, but thought I'd try the simple (and cheap) fix first.

Heh Ho.. bad timing.

Andrew

[Matt No VAT]

Bob,

I have retained the single 132 master cylinder.

Works fine..

[strat6v]

The best fix will be the twin circuit servo, another couple of hundred quid though :rolleyes:

[catswhiskers]

John,

I don't disagree, but my SVA is in 4 weeks time!

Andrew


I think you'll find that SVC do mail order and usually have the servo's in stock. Might save you a big disapointment as well as a re-test booking, not to mention the re-test fee ;)
http://www.s-v-c.co.uk/prod/drservo.html
Give em a call to check.

Mick

[Sando]

Hi Andy
Not much I can add as I still use the 132 M/C and a servo.
with this set up it's usually a bit too much instant bite and fronts locking up in the wet, but I can deal with that (most of the time :D )
Soft pads like green stuff etc can be better than road pads from cold, but not by much, standad pads are pretty good from cold and will probably be for the test as they work through everything and did the brakes almost last on mine.
I think there are graphs and friction numbers on the EBC website, but as suggested I think the remote servo would help.

Have you been able to bed them in at all yet? This may make a difference. I only managed about 20 stops between my house and the test centre, building up gently (only about 2 Miles away) but were much better by the time I got there. You could always set off a day early ;)

Also if you've got two M/Cs then you must be using a bias bar of some sort? can you wind more on the front?

Rob

[catswhiskers]

Hi Andy

Also if you've got two M/Cs then you must be using a bias bar of some sort? can you wind more on the front?

Rob

If you are using a bias bar beware :eek:
For the test, this should be 'disabled'. By that I mean locknuts must be fitted AND locked and also additional nuts with a lock pin through them to prevent any adjustment.
I didnt realise that until the inspector pointed it out.
The reasoning is as follows:
If a bias bar is fitted, the brakes MUST be checked for adequete operation in both extremes of adjustment, full front and full rear. This means that the brakes will almost certainly fail the test.
By demonstrating that the bias bar is 'disabled' the brakes are only tested as the car is presented. You then remove the locking nuts when you get home of course. ;)
My inspector did allow me to fit lock nuts and lock pins at the test centre.(bless him) and I got the pass. :D
You have been warned. :rolleyes:


Mick

[AndyH]

Hi,

Rob, I do have a balance bar... It's biased about 70% front / 30% rear. I've seen the note before re balance bars, so I was going to cut some tube to length and sleeve over the adjustment thread to maintain this balance, but essentially remove any adjustment. Remove adjuster mechanism to remove further doubt?... Do you think this will satisfy?
I've done about 10 miles in the car, and whilst I'd like to think they're improving, it's just wishful thinking!

Mick, Sounds like you had Alfa brakes with no servo, but managed to get through SVA. What was your set-up?

I'm going to mod the lever tomorrow and I've angled the cylinders down a few degrees tio help with alignment... It should get me about +40%.. Must help..

Quick fix.. nothing lost. Failing that it'll be the twin servo... Problem is I've little space left under the bonnet (full of CBS air con unit) and no vacumn pipe (Central spine full up with coolant and air con pipes)

Heh Ho.

[AndyH]

Having slept on this, there really is only one answer.. Phone call to SVC this morning and start disassembly tonight.

Space will need to be found somehwhere.

Thanks for you quick help / advice.

Andrew

[AndyH]

Hi,

As mentioned, I'm going for teh SVC unit. A coupel of questions though..

The brake unions are quoted as 3/8" SAE.. I can't see a source for these.
What have people done Is it close to UNF or even 100mm metric?
Is it a standard flare on the pipe end?

It looks like a 2:1 ratio is pretty much it (Surprisingly only to a point...It does become less efficient eventually.)
What ration would a standard (131) servo give out.. Any idea?
Andrew

[chris.richard]

the flare is standard. Try asking SVC for a set of connectors to come with it. I think i got mine from the local factors.

[AndyH]

Hi Chris,

SVC don't do them.. He didn't offer a supplier option, just that no-one had had a problem to date!

Andrew

[strat6v]

Try wheelsbrook :)

If not then rally design, Demon thieves or merlin. Sound like 3/8 x 24? should be available anywhere. :confused:

[chris.richard]

Or ThinkAuto or Namrick.
By the way Andy, don't get any carp in your barkes! :)

[strat6v]

:D :D Don't start that again!! :D

[catswhiskers]

Hi,

Remove adjuster mechanism to remove further doubt?... Do you think this will satisfy?

Heh Ho.

Sorry to dissapoint but No. :( I didn't have my adjuster cable fitted either. It's just down to the fact that you have a bias bar fitted so it must be disabled.
By the way, As far as I'm aware, I used standard fittings on all the unions. I certainly didnt have to buy anything special.

Mick

[AndyH]

Chris.. I always though my braking solution looked a bit fishy.

It's going to be a sod for anyone searching the forum under "brakes". Is there any way to change the title?

Thanks for all your help guys.... full steam ahead...

In hindsight, I think I would have fitted a single servo, single master cylinder, but heh ho, I am where I am and just need to get on fixing it.

It's nearly 3 years since I did the brake lines, hope it all comes flooding back!

Andrew

[strat6v]

You're going the correct route Andy,
The bias bar will give you the fine adjustment you will require, the servo will give that extra bit of shove. Should be good :cool:

The ' carp' bit was a forum joke, accidentally started by the way, then added to by certain individuals. :D

Good luck with the sva. When it passes i'll expect confirmation for Chatsworth from you, and no 'buts'!!

John.

[chris.richard]

It's going to be a sod for anyone searching the forum under "brakes". Is there any way to change the title?


Job done! ;)

[CorseChris]

As far as the bias adjuster....mine was totally inaccessible (and still is) as I panelled all the underside/footwell area. I left the remote adjuster off for the SVA and promised faithfully that the bar was lock-nut & roll-pin. Might have come a cropper if the guy had insisted on seeing it though......

On a more general brake balance note, I have Wilwood 4 pot calipers & Thema 8V turbo discs at the front and Beta rear calipers, pads & Beta front discs at the back. I had some Wilwood Polymatrix (D I think) pads at the front but found they were just not right for road use. Almost useless when cold and still not great when warm needing huge pedal pressure and balance wound completely forward (and some). I put some Poly A pads on a few weeks back and apart from the dust, these are brilliant. Great feel, much reduced pedal pressure and better balance of course.

[Arthur]

It's some time since the SVA (almost 8 years) but the guy at Heywood, Manchester insisted that with the adjustable balance, it should be set full front brake to test the rears, and full rear brake to test the fronts.
His interpretation was that "there should be a sufficient reserve of braking available" - therefore, doing it his way, there'd always be the proved minimum specified braking effort available regardless of the adjustment setting. And yes, we were all aware of what that would mean in practice with full rear brake on....

But it does mean that the brakes have to be bedded up right, otherwise there's no hope, and the rears will indeed take some bedding up.

Arthur.

[AndyH]

Hi,

Fitted and piped up the SVC remote servo... The 3/8 SAE fitting does use a standard 3/8 UNF nut.... However... I've leaks on the fittings (Not had any fittings leaking before...

Standard flaring tools look to produce a DIN flare profile.

Looking on the internet, the SAE flare profile and the DIN flare profile are slightly different... SAE is a round bubble shape.. DIN is similar, but has a faltter base next to the nut).

The site suggests that DIN flares are compatible with SAE fittings, but my leaks suggest differently.

Did anyone use a specific SAE flare when fitting the SVC unit, or did you just use the standard flaring tool??

Advise greatfully accepted and some inspiration would not go wrong... Leaks have put me on an all time low with this project.

Heh Ho.

Andrew

[chris.richard]

I thought that the copper/kunifer deforms under the pressure of the tightened nut and flowed to fill the space, so exact fit of the formed flare wasn't crucial.

i had a slight leak rfom one output spotted at MOT, but seemed to submit to a further nip with a spanner.

[catswhiskers]

I also used all standard flares and fittings and never had any problems with leaks. Maybe I'm just more heavy handed and tighten things more at the start. :rolleyes:
If I were you Andy, I'd just clamp everything up some more. I dont think you can do any damage.

Mick

[AndyH]

Hi,

Tight to stripping threads point, so about to see if I can cheat a bit and simply cut back 1/2" and re-flare and hope I can stretch the line to fit.

Cheers

Andrew

[AndyH]

This is turning in to a tale of woe..

Tried to re-flare existing pipe in cockpit... To extend / re-route to servo..

Cannot get an acceptable flare.. It seems that I've hit a hard spot on the Kunifer pipe... Can flare other pipe, but not this original bit.
The wonderful internet confirms that this can happen.

New pipe makes wonderful flares, old pipe just squashes and puts a kink in the side of the "bubble". Must have tried 15 times... by this time I was nearly back at the engine anyway !!

Now had to strip back to just in front of the engine... Pipe out, but touch and go as to access for getting back in.. If no access.. Engine out !
Not even worth thinking about...

Almost sold it today to the COMET delivery man who brought a new washing machine!!

Heh Ho.

Andrew

[chris.richard]

Swear loud and long, kick any soft furry things that get in the way, drink a lot of beer, then have another go after a nights sleep and a day's work.

Sorry to hear of the problems - how about changing to flexis?

[catswhiskers]

Sorry to hear of the problems - how about changing to flexis?

That's what I'm using, stainless braided flexible pipes averywhere EXCEPT from the master cylinders to the servo. No problem with access or bends.
Makes life a lot easier.

Mick

[AndyH]

Hi,

Just to finish this thread off..

Now got SVC dual servo fitted.. (Without taking the engine out for new brake pipes!)
As mentioned previously it has a 1:9 to 1 advantage.

I was a bit worried about this on the basis that to get any braking at all without servo It felt like I was almost breaking the seat mounts with the amount of push... Half of this was not going to move me forward a great deal.

However... been out yesterday... Light and day... Got brakes and some confidence... Brakes bedding in nicely now.

SVA this coming Friday... I'm hopefully going to get an MOT this week, but time starting to get tight now.

Thanks for all your help.

Andrew

[kolynos]

Let us know how you get on,I`m sure us "halfway builds" would like to know.
Dave...

[catswhiskers]

Well done Andy. Glad you got there in the end. You know it was worth it.
Best of luck for the SVA.
Let us know how you get on. ;)

Mick