Group 4 Stratos

[NITO]

Some great info here;

http://www.rallycars.com/Cars/Lancia/Stratos1.html

and pics here;

http://www.rallycars.com/Cars/Lancia/Stratos_Gr4.html

Enjoy!

Nito

[Bob]

Hi Nito, this is a well known site of Tryphons, who's a site member. Very well thumbed source of info!.

[Steve Strain]

Hi Guys

I was just reading the details between the cars and noticed the weight difference.
Stratos Stradale chassis # 829 ARO 001939 - Dry weight: 790Kg versus Laden weight: 980Kg for the Stradale.
That’s quite a difference. How do they account for it? It’s more than just fuel, water and oil.

Any clues - lighter fiberglass ends?

Steve

[tryphon]

The Gr.4 covers in fiberglass weight 30Kg less, the exhaust is 25Kg less, the windows are perspex, carpets, underbody protections, engine compartment protections, air filter assembly, air scoop for the heating, .... are all removed.
Add to the above lighter brakes, a lighter loom, a gearbox that weights 12kg less, etc., etc. and there you have it.
The driver weights significantly more than Munari though...

Ciao.

[colin artus]

The Stradale tub is heavily lead loaded to get the finished shape. I imagine a lot of this was omitted on the GP4.

[tryphon]

Why would you want to put lead on the chassis tub Colin? It's rough as it should be.
I will have to weight the car again with the lamp pod fitted and competition dry battery, will let you know the final weight.
By the way here's the entry list for Ollon-Villars, http://www.ollon-villars.com/m1.html mine is #43.

[colin artus]

Well my experience of two original cars stripped to bare metal was that the finished shape of the tub was achieved by 'loading' the panel edges with lead. 'Loading' is a coachbuilding term and the process was necessary to compensate for the poor quality ( in terms of shape and finish) of steel stampings for panels. The cheap modern way is to use filler. I was surprised how much lead had been necessary, particularly on the roof where just a small patch of bare steel was left unleaded.

[tryphon]

That was the way cars were built in those days.
Not so much lead here:

[colin artus]

Indeed. I imagine that as production at Bertone proceeded the quality of the panels decreased, as the press tooling would not have have been very durable; production numbers not justifying the expense of better press tools. One would expect that as the tooling wore out so the degree of rectification required on later tubs increased; sharp edges and compound curves loosing definition and shape.

[tryphon]

These are all assumptions and quite far stretched in my point of view.
I find the quality of the chassis pretty good and all the bare metal cars I've seen where quite nicely made.
The Stratos does/did have a quality problem and that was the electrics but so did all Italian cars of that era.
Apart from that I think Lancia and Bertone should only be commended on the work carried out on such a low production run.

[d8evo]

as I understand it from a reliable source, when Gerry dismantled the car from which he took the moulds for the hawk replica, he discovered the amount of lead loading carried out on the stradale, especially in the roof.

juest my fourpenneth but it seems pretty conclusive to me.

cheers

Dan

[tryphon]

as I understand it from a reliable source, when Gerry dismantled the car from which he took the moulds for the hawk replica, he discovered the amount of lead loading carried out on the stradale, especially in the roof.

juest my fourpenneth but it seems pretty conclusive to me.

cheers

Dan

And how do you know that car wasn't involved in an accident?
Why would anyone use as much lead as you seem to infer for such a simple pressing as the roof?
How can pressing tools be so "used" after producing a mere 500 cars?
Which parts of the chassis are exposed, i.e. not covered by fiberglass moldings, that would need to be "corrected" using any filler?

All valid questions me thinks.

[mogul_x]

I can't say anyhting about the amount of leading that may or may not have been needed on the Stratos production run- having never seen one in the raw - but as for wearing out a press tool in less than 500 hits, it's perfectly feasible.

In the auto industry, prototype and short run parts are not usually tooled in hardened steel, for cost reasons. Sometimes they're machined from mild steel, but more often, they're cast from Kirksite, a lead-based alloy. Kirksite has been used since at least the 1940's through the present day. These Kirksite tools have a life span of about 200 hits before they no longer produce good parts - sometimes much less if the part has a very aggressive draw.

No idea what type of tooling Bertone might have used for the Stratos -, but for 500 units, I doubt it would have been particularly durable.

[tryphon]

Neither Bertone nor Lancia knew how many cars they would make (and still don't know how many they did make).
I have seen a good number of bare metal chassis and never witnessed any findings such as those you describe.
I have pictures of original Lancia chassis parts sold as spares, such as the one below. These were made after the last chassis was completed and look perfectly well made.
Anyway I think you guys should have a closer look at originals before making assumptions or spreading rumors.

[Cloggie]

Hi Tryphon,
Thanks for the insights and discussion.

Do you know anything about what happened to the original tooling? Certainly some of the original styling models and the original "buck" still exist, but I wonder what happened to the press tools for the center tub, and side panels, as per the spare side panel you sent? I know we had a big discussion about the Wheel tooling before we remade them, but I just wondered if anyone ever tried to find the original press tools...

Cheers,
Nico/

[tryphon]

Bertone was subcontracting the chassis fabrication.
The company that was contracted at the time is doing the same job as we speak.
However the steel panels and tooling are, of course, not available anymore. Tooling has been recycled and destroyed just as it happens for any car/manufacturer. Therefore you can't get roofs and side panels.
A good panel beater will make whatever you may need as per picture below.

[tryphon]

You can get this:

[tryphon]

But you can't get this:

[rutthenut]

Anyway I think you guys should have a closer look at originals before making assumptions or spreading rumors.

You did raise some reasonable questions in an earlier reply on this thread, but I do think you should be slightly less critical/defensive.

The points made weren't a complaint, just on observation of what had been seen on an original car. It is fair to accept that lead-loading was used for the joins between panels and on some complex curves/edges. If the car seen had a larger-than-expected amount of lead in the roof, that was what they found surprising, hence the comments. Point being that someone (presumably the original manufacturer) put in considerable effort to getting the finished look how they wanted it.

As for your earlier comments, I don't see why you raise the one about most metalwork being covered by fibreglass panels - the two parts you indicate are no longer available are the most visible pieces of metal on the car!


But it is interesting to read/discuss the situation for original manufacture of the car, and to appreciate the current position for parts non-availability and the need for remanufacturing. On that topic, we believe you are very knowledgeable and a very keen enthusiast/supporter of the car. Do keep it up.

[tryphon]

As for your earlier comments, I don't see why you raise the one about most metalwork being covered by fibreglass panels - the two parts you indicate are no longer available are the most visible pieces of metal on the car!



Simply because the only metal parts that might need lead filling are the roof and side panels. No other chassis part needs "correcting" as is is hidden to the eye.
These panels are both very simple pressings. So simple in fact that they may be hammered, especially the roof.
The fact that one car had loads of lead does not mean, and by far, that all cars are like that like it was initially implied.

[rutthenut]

The fact that one car had loads of lead does not mean, and by far, that all cars are like that like it was initially implied.

Fair enough.

As an aside, I recall some comments/discussions about some 're-manufactured' cars appearing as Grp 4 cars. Wonder if those same sources are able to do something more useful to Stratos owners, and offer those panels for repairs if/when required?

[tryphon]

They do, as I said above you can buy the chassis structure complete less roof and side panels but these can be beaten by any good panel maker.

[Chris J]

They do, as I said above you can buy the chassis structure complete less roof and side panels

Tryphon,

Where from?, and for how much money?

[mudhut]

Tryphon,

Where from?, and for how much money?

I knew your ears would prick up at this!

[tryphon]

Tryphon,

Where from?, and for how much money?

Ask around in Italy. The company even has a brochure with their work. They're the same guys that were doing this work back in 1975. Not so expensive I hear (20-40K€ max).
In any case even if you do have the bare chassis you would be missing around a million parts to get a finished car but I'm sure that you know that already.

P.S. They do Miura and Countach chassis too. It appears time travel is feasible...

[colin artus]

Gartrac have built chassis/tubs in the past from their own jigs, which I presume they still have.

[Chris J]

Gartrac have built chassis/tubs in the past from their own jigs, which I presume they still have.

Wait for my Silverstone Classic report in the next SEC newsletter, and how it's a small world!