New Stratos junkie

[eyesoreracing]

My girlfriend made the mistake of getting me a great new rally DVD with tons of Stratos footage (Helmut Deimel's "The Evolution of Rallying") and my burning need to own a Stratos is back. I've been mining the excellent supersite for a day or so, and have answered most of my own questions. I must say I'm impressed with how hard Stratos people (Stratosians?) use their cars. Very refressing indeed.

I've found an amazing amount of info digging through this forum, but I do have a few quesions left.

1: Are any of the Stratos owners here as tall as me (6' 2"), and if so, how do you fit, esp. with a helmet?

2: Does anybody have any photos of the suspension, chassis, underside, or any other guts of either the Hawk or Corse. Im curious to see the design and construction.

3: Are there any replicas in California? I really want to see one in person.

4: What suspension components are used in the Hawk and Corse? Custom made stuff, or borrowed from mass production?

Just for fun, the current fantasy haunting my every thought involves either a newish Maxima VQ30DE mated to the current Maxima's LSD-equipped 6-speed, or, preferably, the 3.2-liter VTEC V6 from the U.S. Acura 2.3CL Type-S, which also comes with an LSD equipped-six-speed. Not sure how or if that car appears in other markets, but it is an amazing, high-revving, smooth, powerful motor that makes the kinds of noises the Stratos should make.

I guess that brings up question number 5: how big is the engine compartment?

That's enough out of me for now.

-Dave

[lpriestland]

Hia Dave Newbie,

Tis always good to get some new blood injected, now lets see how I get on with your queries,

1) A know someone who owns a CORSE I, is well over 6' tall and fits into the car even with a helmet on. He used a modified bucket seat on which he increased the rake to match the rear bulkhead. You can do a similar thing by rotating a std bucket provided that the seat base doesn't come up too high. He also mounted the seat runners down the side of the seat rather than underneath.

2) For starters, check out the Photos section. I can tell you that the CORSE I chassis is built to UK motorsport specifications.

3) ?

4) The CORSE I uses cast alloy hubs with double wishbones all round, rose jointed if desired. My CORSE I uses Leda coil over shocks with 250/300lbs springs. Most CORSE components are modern items i.e. racing steering rack, hub bearings are Ford, etc.

I like your choice of engines, very tasty indeed. Honda v6's have been fitted into CORSE's with good results. I'm slotting in a Lancia v8 with a 90 degree 'v' which is just about on the limit of the engine bay size. The CORSE has slightly different rear cradles for the different engine options.

I'll let a Hawk owner tell you their spec's...

Happy Hunting

[mogul_x]

Dave,

Here's another set of responses to your questions. Bear in mind that I own a Hawk, so my replies may not apply to Corse:

1) Stratos replicas will accomidate drivers over 6' tall, but sometimes need a few slight modifications. I think this may be more true of Hawk replicas than Corse. A couple of the tricks I've heard of are to remove the floor and re-install it slightly lower (not a big problem, since the floors of a Hawk are rivited in), or to leave the seat adjuster tracks out so you can mount the seat a little lower.

2) As mentioned, see the photo section. I also have some picutres that I could e-mail to you, or snail-mail to you on a CD.

3) I'm not sure if there are any in California at present. I think John Brewer's car may have been in California at one point, but it's in Texas now. Steve Ramm owns a replica, and lives in Santa Ana, but his car does not. As far as I know, it's still in storage in New Jersey. He had planned on shipping it West this spring, so hopefully it will be out there before too long.

4) For Hawk and Corse S models, suspension components are a mix of custom made and off the shelf parts. The wishbones at all four corners are custom made. Front shocks and Springs are a specially built Leda or Spax unit. Front spindles are modified Fiat 132 parts. On Hawks, the front lower ball joint is an off the shelf Fiat 124 part.

Rear hub carriers are custom made on Hawks. I think Corse S may use modified Lancia Beta units. Rear wheel bearings are either Lancia Beta or Delta front wheel bearings, depending on whether you're using 4 or 5 lug hubs. (also from Lancia Beta or Delta, respectively). Rear springs and Shocks are either Lancia Beta, or a custom made Leda strut. Both options require strut top mounts from the Lancia Beta.

As for engine bay size, I think there are some dimensions in the build manual. I can try scanning and e-mailing that page to you. If not, I can take a few quick measurements and send them instead. I think that the engine bay is large enough to swallow most v-6 engines, although the accessory mounting may require some modifications. The harder part is usually working out the engine mounts and shift linkages for "non-standard" engines.

Hope that provides some more information. Feel free to drop me a line if I need to explain further.

Welcome aboard!

[stewart]

Dave,

Just a quick reply to your post.

The Maxima VQ30DE will fit quite comfortably in the rear of the Hawk as I have one fitted into my car. It is out of a 1996 model with 5spd and LSD. Finding a manual gearbox might be your biggest problem, I imported mine from the US and the supplier said it was the only one they had seen so I assume they are rare there like they are in Aus.

(Now that the new 350Z is out with the 3.5 VQ motor I'm already scheming on my engine upgrade and the car isn't even on the road yet!)

As far as suspension goes just remember that if you are going to modify the engine you are probably going to have to modify rear suspension. I didn't use the Hawk supplied fixed hub carriers or wishbones.

If you like I can see what I can find as far as photo's go and e.mail them directly.

cheers

[eyesoreracing]

Originally posted by stewart
The Maxima VQ30DE will fit quite comfortably in the rear of the Hawk as I have one fitted into my car. It is out of a 1996 model with 5spd and LSD. Finding a manual gearbox might be your biggest problem, I imported mine from the US and the supplier said it was the only one they had seen so I assume they are rare there like they are in Aus.

As far as suspension goes just remember that if you are going to modify the engine you are probably going to have to modify rear suspension. I didn't use the Hawk supplied fixed hub carriers or wishbones.

If you like I can see what I can find as far as photo's go and e.mail them directly.

cheers

I have friends at Nissan, and I know where their dumpsters are, so I should be able to find a 6-speed ok.

I would love to see some photos of yours when you get a chance. Esp. around the enigne mounts and such.

What did you use for the suspension if you didn't use the Hawk bits? I notice most of it seems to be built with obscure (at least around here) Italian stuff. Being in the middle of all these Japanese junk parts, it seems, at a glance at least, that something like a 3rd gen RX-7 front suspension in front and a Maxima front suspension in the rear (with tie rods turned into toe-control links) might be a good starting point. Both are extremely strong and both come with beefy brakes already. Don't really know how the chassis looks, so I'm not sure how impractical that is.

-Dave

[eyesoreracing]

Originally posted by lpriestland

2) For starters, check out the Photos section. I can tell you that the CORSE I chassis is built to UK motorsport specifications.

4) The CORSE I uses cast alloy hubs with double wishbones all round, rose jointed if desired. My CORSE I uses Leda coil over shocks with 250/300lbs springs. Most CORSE components are modern items i.e. racing steering rack, hub bearings are Ford, etc.


If you're talking about the photo galleries, they all seem to be vintage pics of the real deal, not many replicas, and even fewer detailed in/around/under pics. If you're talking about some other photo section, talk to me like I'm four years old, because I'm not finding it on my own.

Do I understand correctly that the Corse is no longer available new?

-Dave

[lpriestland]

Within the Photo's section, try the Members gallery perhaps... Unfortunately, my digital camera is up the spout so perhaps someone else will supply you with the pic's you're interested in?

Yup, the Hawk is still in production but the CAE CORSE I hasn't been for available for 3ish years. However, there are plans afoot to get the project off the ground again but I'm not sure of timsescales.

[chris.richard]

Hope this helps

[mogul_x]

Originally posted by eyesoreracing
I notice most of it seems to be built with obscure (at least around here) Italian stuff

It's not as bad as it sounds. I didn't have any particular trouble getting suspension parts. Most of it is available in the U.S., and the few items that aren't can be bought from Hawk Cars. About the only thing really in short supply are the Fiat 132 spindles, and those are still available (for the time being) from Hawk.

Being in the middle of all these Japanese junk parts, it seems, at a glance at least, that something like a 3rd gen RX-7 front suspension in front and a Maxima front suspension in the rear (with tie rods turned into toe-control links) might be a good starting point.... ....I'm not sure how impractical that is.

It will require some pretty extensive rework to the control arm attachment brackets, at the very least. Might have to make some pretty heavy modifications to the frame as well. For the most part, the Hawk faithfully reproduces the geometry of the Lancia Stratos. All of the control arms are very small, and there isn't a lot of extra space at the front end. Mouting somebody else's off the shelf components would be no mean feat.

Not saying it's impossible, but I'd say that there are easier ways to go about it. Maybe you could design up a set of control arms that would retain the standard mounting points on the frame, but attach to the Mazda/ Nissan uprights. I don't think that would be too difficult on the rear, but the front might still be a problem.

Unless the Mazda suspension geometry is very similar to the Stratos' to begin with, you could end up with some crazy things happening between jounce and rebound. The Stratos has a reputation for nervous handling to begin with, and it could be treacherous if the suspension isn't laid out properly. I'd recommend consulting with sombody who really understands suspension design to make sure that it will work as intended. That's a risky area unless you really know what you're doing.

[chris.richard]

I second all of Scott's warnings.

[eyesoreracing]

Originally posted by mogul_x

It will require some pretty extensive rework to the control arm attachment brackets, at the very least. Might have to make some pretty heavy modifications to the frame as well. For the most part, the Hawk faithfully reproduces the geometry of the Lancia Stratos. All of the control arms are very small, and there isn't a lot of extra space at the front end. Mouting somebody else's off the shelf components would be no mean feat.

Your warnings are all very valid, and let me assure you that I know a thing or two about suspension geometry myself, and I have some good friends who would offer some very valuable assistance in getting appropriate relationship between front and rear roll centers and such. I don't take re-engineering cars lighly. Also, I'm just bench engineering right now, true caution can be reserved for when I start welding.

Rather than trying to make new suspension mounts on the Hawk chassis. It seems wiser to use the RX-7's whole front subframe, which holds both upper and lower control arms and the steering rack. This reduces the mounting hassles to two: First, the subframe has to be mounted at the appropriate height and integrated into the chassis structure, and second, the spring and shock need to be supported. My two concerns after looking more closely at the RX-7 subframe are clearance between the footwell and the steering rack, and the width of the front frame section.

So, two questons for Hawk owners with tape measures:

1: Roughly how far apart are the front frame rails? The mounting points on the RX-7 subframe are about 32 inches (~81 cm) apart.

2: How far is the steering rack from the front bulkhead, and how far back is the rack from the front wheel centerline?

By the way, as far as I can tell from my internet searches, the Stratos' front track is 143cm. The RX-7, remarkably, is 146. That's with stock 225/50-16 tires. Drop that to 205/50-15 (Squeezing 15-inch wheels over 11.6-inch brakes might be tight, but bear with me here), which seems to be the most logical front Stratos size, and the track width drops to 144. That's what I call close enough!

-Dave Coleman

[rutthenut]

Originally posted by eyesoreracing
two questons for Hawk owners with tape measures:

1: Roughly how far apart are the front frame rails? The mounting points on the RX-7 subframe are about 32 inches (~81 cm) apart.

2: How far is the steering rack from the front bulkhead, and how far back is the rack from the front wheel centerline?


Rough answers:

The front 'extensions' to the Hawk chassis are approximately 29" apart, from the bulkhead area forwards.

The rack is about two/three inches in front of the bulkhead.

The rack is about five inches ahead fo the wheel centreline.

My comments:

I would not recommend this sort of approach to changing the complete front end of the car without more than a little bit of caution. In fact, I think (IMO) it is probably quite a bad idea, since it would involve a huge amount of custom work for what would appear to be little, if any, benefit and would also introduce a number of potential problems.

You should think again about your reasoning for wanting to do this. If it is just to avoid sourcing the Italian donor parts, I'd think it easier to do that than to rework the front end entirely!

Alternative brakes can be made to fit the usual donor parts. The steering rack works fine as supplied. The parts all appear strong enough for most demands. The wishbone setup can be adjusted for different geometry requirements - and it is the same as the original car to start with.

Risks of fitting something different start with the complexity of fitting it into the chassis itself, and then to make sure you can do so without leading to incorrect ride heights, incompatible anti-roll bar positioning, steering links and geometry (castor, ackerman, etc), bump steer and so on. The alignment issue is obviously something you would be happy to work out, and is not an impossible task by any means, but is made so much harder by having little space to work in.

The front end of the Strat is *very* compact... That doesn't mean you couldn't change it though, but I do wonder why you would really want to.

I would think that any changes would be best considered as replacing only the outermost components - the upright/hub/brake mounts - and getting them to mate with the existing wishbones, or with alternative wishbones/links to suit. Changing the inner mounting points and the rack must be more trouble than it is worth?

Changes to the rear are much easier to contemplate, as there is space to put the units where you might want them, and having suspension and driveshafts that match up with your donor engine is a strong reason to think about work in this area.

That's my two-pence worth anyway (all IMO, naturally).

[mogul_x]

Originally posted by eyesoreracing

It seems wiser to use the RX-7's whole front subframe... This reduces the mounting hassles to two: First, the subframe has to be mounted at the appropriate height and integrated into the chassis structure, and second, the spring and shock need to be supported.

Those are some pretty big mounting hassles! Glad you don't thake this sort of thing lightly. ;)

Seriously, though - the problem you're likely to enconter is a lack of space. Keep in mind that the seating position in a Stratos is very far forward - all of the front suspension components on a Stratos surround the driver's feet, and bolt directly to major structural members. The lower control arms attach to the frame right under your heels, the steering rack is in front of your toes, and the upper control arm / shock are right beside your foot. You really can't move these locations without taking space away from the footbox, and it's tight to begin with. If you start moving the frame rails up to attach a front cradle underneath, you won't be able to get your feet in there.

Also, as John mentioned, the Stratos is a front-steer setup. From the way you phrased your earlier questions, it sounds like the RX-7 is rear-steer. That would put the steering rack just about under your knees, if you're lucky. Right through the middle of your calves if you're not.

By the way, does the RX-7 use struts for the front suspension? You may have trouble getting a strut tower underneath the nose - it's very low. The top may end up poking through the top of the front body panel.

I've attached a picture of a Hawk front suspension. I hope it makes my description easier to understand. I don't want to whiz on your Wheaties or anything, but the plan you've described would entail a huge amount of work, because you'll have to re-design the entire front end of the car. As I said - not impossible, but no mean feat.

[chris.richard]

Originally posted by mogul_x


I don't want to whiz on your Wheaties or anything, :D :D

[eyesoreracing]

Originally posted by mogul_x


Those are some pretty big mounting hassles! Glad you don't thake this sort of thing lightly. ;)



Talk is cheap, I don't even have the car. Engineers can't help trying to re-do everything, it's in our nature.

Originally posted by mogul_x

The problem you're likely to enconter is a lack of space. Keep in mind that the seating position in a Stratos is very far forward - all of the front suspension components on a Stratos surround the driver's feet, and bolt directly to major structural members. The lower control arms attach to the frame right under your heels, the steering rack is in front of your toes, and the upper control arm / shock are right beside your foot.


Yes, yes, and thank you for the photo. That's the best angle I've seen yet. that makes things a lot more clear. It looks like there are actually two problems with the RX-7 idea. First, the shock is too long, with the spring above the upper control arm, and there's no room to bring it down. Also, the RX-7's lower control arm appears to go farther back than the Stratos, meaning even more footwell issues.

Originally posted by mogul_x

Also, as John mentioned, the Stratos is a front-steer setup. From the way you phrased your earlier questions, it sounds like the RX-7 is rear-steer. That would put the steering rack just about under your knees, if you're lucky. Right through the middle of your calves if you're not.


Funny thing is, I thought BOTH cars were rear steer. Turns out they're both front steer.

Originally posted by mogul_x

By the way, does the RX-7 use struts for the front suspension? You may have trouble getting a strut tower underneath the nose - it's very low. The top may end up poking through the top of the front body panel.


No, I'm talking 3rd generation RX-7 ('93-'95) which is a very sexy forged aluminum double wishbone setup. The hood clearance is still an issue, though, as I mentioned earlier. Looks like that idea is shot.

Thanks for the insight and the photo. Any idea where I might be able to find some drawings of the suspension? Some kind of front view that could be used to find roll centers and such? It's probably hopeless, but I'm just trying to get a sense of the Hawk's design without actually being able to see one in person.

Thanks again.

-Dave

[mogul_x]

Originally posted by eyesoreracing
Engineers can't help trying to re-do everything, it's in our nature.
I can relate to that - I'm in the same line of work.
Any idea where I might be able to find some drawings of the suspension?
Not off the top of my head. Hopefully somebody else here can give you an idea where to look. I'd offer to go out to the garage and take measurements for you, but I'm not sure if they'd be accurate enough for what you need. I don't have very precise measuring equipment, and the supension on my car has not been aligned yet.

Still, if there's anything I can do to help, feel free to ask.

[chris.richard]

Originally posted by eyesoreracing



Any idea where I might be able to find some drawings of the suspension?


Nigel Trow's book "Lancia Stratos, World Champion Rally Car" has copies of the original homologation papers showing dimensions of suspension pick up points, roll centres etc. If you can't get a copy, I'll scan the pages for you.

[eyesoreracing]

Originally posted by chris.richard


Nigel Trow's book "Lancia Stratos, World Champion Rally Car" has copies of the original homologation papers showing dimensions of suspension pick up points, roll centres etc. If you can't get a copy, I'll scan the pages for you.

I'd love to get my hands on a copy of that! Looks scarce, though. I just got in line behind three other people on Amazon's used book thingy, so the odds don't look too good. If nobody here has a copy to buy, I'd be eternally greatful for some scans.

-Dave

[mogul_x]

Chris,

I also have a copy of that book, but I'm not sure if the homologation papers have all of the information in them. It's got all of the suspension hard points, but I didn't see anything related to the control arms or uprights. I may have missed something, but I think Dave will need some additional information to calculate roll centers.

Still, it's a good place to start. I should have thought of it myself.

Cheers,