Engines /catalytic converters (aka Almost an Alfa from B&S)

[Chris J]

I very nearly bid for this:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=002&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=120133194192&rd=1&rd=1

[Steve Poole]

Hi Chris is this the model i should be looking for as a donor car (would this be a pre-cat model) im not quite sure of the years which are applicable to us for precats - would you happen to know?

Steve

[Chris J]

Steve

These old 12v motors were the popular option. Cars like this one with only 70,000 on the clock are now very rare. I think you're not very likely to find a 12v that isn't dodgy so I can't really recommend the 12v as what you should be looking for these days. This was probably last chance saloon for getting hold of a good (ish) 'fit it and forget it' 12v.

From what I can gather from people who know Alfas a lot better than me, this is probably what you should be looking at these days:

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/186845.htm

Or if you can't stretch to that, one with a bit of damage like this, but the mileage is maybe too high?:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/DAMAGED-1999-ALFA-ROMEO-166-SUPER-V6-24V-BLUE_W0QQitemZ330121034862QQihZ014QQcategoryZ9834Q QrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

It isn't just the fact that 166s of a similar age, condition and mileage have a lower second hand value than other second hand Alfas, it's also something to do with the spec of the 3.0 166 engine that is significant. I'm not an expert though?

Personally, I like cars as 'stone age' as possible, and that's why I was looking at that old 12v.

[Steve Poole]

Hi Chris thanks for that. I was thinking that if a kit came up which has recently - maybe a goer - not been told yet - i would need a donor and was told a pre-cat 12v from a 164 is the way to go for ease of SVA. That first one would make the build unviable (cost) and the second i recall John H saying something about significant differences which is why he recommended the 164. I guess i have to do some homework on the 164 years produced upto intro of the cat. Have some contacts to look out for a 164 12v v6 so will dig deeper.

Steve

[Swamprat33]

Hi Steve, my original donor was a 1989 G plate 12v lusso. It was a pre-cat car :D

The 12v Cloverleaf engine I am now using is newer (I think), but still has no cat.

I believe that once SVA is over you can do what you like.

Please bear in ming though that exhaust manifolds are different between 12v and 24v engines. This would be an additional cost if changing from 12v to 24v motors post SVA.


My advise would be to get a 12v cloverleaf car.
I do know someone who got one to fit into a kit, but has since lost the will to build. The engine had been rebuilt and checked over. He should have all the required docs to support it for SVA application.

I will enquire what is happening with the donor parts.

Cheers

Tim

[catswhiskers]

I believe that once SVA is over you can do what you like.

Tim

Thats my understanding Tim but bearing in mind that you need the 'age related' registration plate to fit in with the 'pre-cat' testing regulations.
Basically, if you have a 1989 'F' plate (like mine) then your registration V5 says 'date of manufacture 1989' but it also says 'declared new at first registration' which in my case was 2005.
This effectively means that the MOT emissions tests are based on a 1989 car and are much less stringent. i.e no cat.
I could quite easily (and I think, legally) now fit a new 24 valve motor and retain the 1989 emission settings for the car. :D
Something to bear in mind when buying a donor for the V5 ;)

Hope that helps Steve. :)

Mick

[Chris J]

My car passed the SVA four years ago, and two MOTs with no cat.

What is it that signifies that my car does not require a cat?

[catswhiskers]

Chris,

I think I'm right (although if someone knows better, please correct me) in saying that if the vehicle build date (essentially the donor V5) is before August 1992 then it will be tested on the 'pre-cat' basis.
Anything manufactured after that date will need a cat.
Does that fit in with your cars dates?

Mick

[strat6v]

i don't understand why everybody avoids cats like the plague. I'd rather have a cat fitted on a 24v car personally.

Regarding the 166 donors. The differences are minor, i have made a different gearbox mount (easy, even for a bodger like me!) plus a slightly different shifter setup, easy too. Gerry has a gta demo car on the way i believe, and will have a gear linkage to offer for the six speed boxes i'm sure. Hell, you could even copy mine!! If someone is converting from a twink then donor cost permitting, choose the later engine. If anyone is contemplating a replica build, then the difference in donor costs is minor. Try taking a look at the cost of bits to refurb a 12v, you'll no doubt find it a lot more, plus the 166 has big runners, you don't need to start chopping the chassis brace and fuel tanks etc. It all adds up.

[mudhut]

I think John has the right idea here - might look for a later engine myself. The engine sensors are more costly for the 164 engines - both the 12V and 24V.

Why would you particularly want a cat on a 24 engine John, especially if you don't have to - I'm assuming it's not for environmental reasons here.

[strat6v]

If you fit a later engine that had a cat as standard, into a previously unregistered kit then it will need a cat for the SVA.

I fail to see why people fit an older underpowered engine instead of a later unit. does a cat make the car worth less or something? Bit like cutting your nose off to spite your face?
Just not logical :confused:

This thinking is based on normal 12v engines and not a clover (before tim savages me :o )

No point fitting an old 12v then spending a grand to tune it to standard 24v levels, better buying that late 24v(with the big runners etc) and spending £400 on some fast road cams.

[kens]

It is easy for me to say, because I am not located in the UK. I would suggest a temporary cat fit on a late model 24V engine. The extreme heat generated from cat. converters is obviously a negative.

It is difficult to resist the way Alfa 24V engines really love to scream at the 7k rev limit. The later 24V engines (166 & GTV) have a redesigned timing belt layout (more safety from belt slippage). Early 24V engines relied on an oil pump drive where the distributor was first positioned. Also, the timing belt tension on these later engines is much easier to set. The later 24V engines also have a smaller oil sump, which could help if ground clearance is an issue.

One great source for a donor engine is the Lancia Kappa, they are VERY cheap. A quick search found a 3.0 1997 Kappa with 100,000 km for € 1990. The Kappa used the Alfa 24V engine with Lancia scripting! However, most 3.0 Kappas have automatic tranmissions. Converting an engine from automatic to manual transmission usage requires swapping in a manual flywheel. Also, the rear mount for the carrier shaft needs replacement. In theory, an engine with an auto transmission has not been stressed much. PLUS, the Kappa 3.0 used four pot Brembo calipers. Requires, 16 inch wheels, if you can stuff the Brembo calipers under the Stratos vintage looking wheels....


Ken

[mudhut]

John, your post made me think that you wanted a cat on a 24V engine no matter what.

Cat(s) will have to have to be fitted on a previously unregistered car with a late 24V, I'd agree. For those of use planning a conversion from an older car, we will be able to get away with not fitting them and I wouldn't want them by choice, not least for the reasons Ken has said.

Now I'm really not sure about this next bit: my understanding of the rules was that the emissions test had to be appropriate to the age of the engine (even if fitted as a replacement) so fitting a late 24V would require a cat. Of course nobody is going to let on about the true age and most MoT stations wouldn't know a late engine from an earlier one anyway. It's not like they will be able to see the engine number when in a Stratos anyway.

[chris.richard]

I thought it was the date of registration that determined the emmission regulations that you were tested to. My 1994 engine in 1995 chassis registered from a 1978 donor doesn't need a cat for the MOT. I didn't have to go through the SVA though.

[strat6v]

I think that is one of the differences between SVA and MOT requirements :confused:

TBH, I'don't particularly want a cat but if thats what i have to fit with the 24v for SVA then so be it. They only fix on with a few bolts ;)

[Sando]

: my understanding of the rules was that the emissions test had to be appropriate to the age of the engine (even if fitted as a replacement) so fitting a late 24V would require a cat.


...probably not supposed to be but seems a bit of a grey area. (Well the MOT man wasn't sure anyway)
Yes for SVA proof of engine age or donor vehicle docs needed to test emmissions against.
However for the MOT tester all he's looking at is the the age of the car and it's documents / whats on the new system, not the engine on it's own or if it's been changed.

I was a bit aprehensive for my MOT as my car had not even had it's first one after three years (another grey area) and I'd already swopped the Vx engine for the V6. - good move! :D :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :cool:

When it came too it he just punched in the Reg number into the system and it didn't come up with any levels to test to, so I showed him the SVA certificarte and the V5 and he was happy that it should be tested to the reg number. (pre 84 - 4.5 Co and 1200ppm HC)
Very very easy to pass with an injected engine I think the Co was about 1.5 !

Bobster

[CorseChris]

Having had the chance to think about the relative merits of 12V & 24V as an engine, I think it comes down to where you are starting from. If I was starting from scratch in putting in a V6, I'd go 24V, as late as funds allow. If doing a refresh then I'd stick with whichever I had, 12V or 24V, as the ancillary costs are not insignificant.

I thought about going 24V once I looked at the costs of rebuilding the 12V, but by the time you factor in exhaust, re-plumbing, etc etc, it's cheaper to rebuild the 12V. Cost me roughly £1k to do pistons, liners, rings, pins, all bearings, oil pump, all valves & vlave guides, oil pump, water pump, gaskets, seals & belts, clutch plus a 3-angle valve job.

1K would buy a good low mileage 24V (probably not a 3.2 unless you got lucky) but it wouldn't pay for the installation conversion.


As for CAT/no CAT....you don't actually need a CAT per se, you just need to comply with the emissions requirement. I understand this can be done without a CAT, but it's not easy.

[catswhiskers]

As for CAT/no CAT....you don't actually need a CAT per se, you just need to comply with the emissions requirement. I understand this can be done without a CAT, but it's not easy.

If you run a mapable ECU like the new Emerald K3, you can actually store 3 different maps which can be swapped with a dash mounted switch. :)
Wouldn't it be possible to have a 'MOT emission pass' map to run extra lean just for the test? and then switch back to normal afterwards. :confused:

Mick

[Swamprat33]

Yes Mick, I believe that is the case. Not tried it yet on mine though.

Tim

[CorseChris]

I'll certainly be putting the map selector switch on mine when I do the installation. I plan on having a map for different fuels, 95, 97 & E85. Plans and reality might even meet somewhere! :)

How you'd go about mapping for an MOT pass without a CAT I have no idea though! Too lean would fail on HC, too rich not good either of course. Perfect stoich. maybe?

[Chris J]

= so I showed him the SVA certificarte and the V5


Have you actually got the SVA certificate Rob?

I thought you didn't get to keep it? I have'nt got one for my car.

[Chris J]

My car passed the SVA four years ago, and two MOTs with no cat.

What is it that signifies that my car does not require a cat?

I think I've worked this out now...

...because it was SVA tested with an old engine fitted, the MOT is based on the emissions for that era of engine??

[rutthenut]

I'don't particularly want a cat but if thats what i have to fit with the 24v for SVA then so be it. They only fix on with a few bolts

But it will depend on your exhaust system and manifold setup though.

I see that the GTA system has small cats (pussies?) in the downpipe too, just to make things more complicated in both plumbing and wiring.

[strat6v]

The cat headers will stay on the GTA for sva, along with the Hawk silencer box. Afterwards, who knows ;) Kinda like the look of the tubular headers from the link in Pimms latest post, just what i had in mind. I had made space for some a long time ago, plenty of room behind the sloping bulkhead and the tapering shaped section of the boot has been cut out and reversed to give more clearance for the rear bank header.

[John]

Igor's exhaust looks very familiar! Very much akin with the one in Mr Struthers car and probably the work of these guy's
http://www.wunoff.co.uk/
Whoah! Don't look Ethel... but I was too late...

[strat6v]

Igors front header is really tight to the engine, would fit in my engine bay no probs. the rear would be about right too, just a little re-route on the secondary.

the two sets of primary and secondarys look the same length.

[Sando]

Have you actually got the SVA certificate Rob?
I thought you didn't get to keep it? I have'nt got one for my car.


Yep, I took a copy before the inspector came and took all the paperwork away...But then he actually put a copy in with the returned and new docs and Tax disc when I picked it up anyway :) Just happened to be a vehicle examiner who knew the score and was being helpful.

I think a few people were caught out by this in the early days without taking a copy for themselves. It's only for posterity (think thats how you spell it?) doesn't say anything different to what goes on the V5.




.....And anyway aren't the small header Cats called Kittens :rolleyes: John will be having a few when he firsts puts his foot down anyway :D :D ...one day.... :)

[strat6v]

rubber pants neatly ironed and in the drawer :D

One day :o :D

[Chris J]

.....And anyway aren't the small header Cats called Kittens?

You could kill two birds with one stone there John.

I think kittens are partial to a bit of carp!

[rutthenut]

If you could construct an exhaust with a 'diverter' of some sort around the catalytic converter - would that be a cat flap.

I'll get my coat now ...

And we'd best not get onto diverters for those with weak bladders :-o

[strat6v]

this is getting surreal....Ok, ok i've got kittens/having kittens.

[Chris J]

Based on this:
Stratos replica passed SVA in 2002 with 1978 Beta twin cam on twin Webers, but planning to fit 2003 Alfa V6 engine with Emerald K3 ECU. Can someone confirm the following?:

My car will have no problem passing the emissions part of the MOT test with no cat(s) fitted?

[chris.richard]

Registered as?

[Chris J]

Registered as?

I see what you mean now, see my next post.

[CorseChris]

Chris, my car was built/SVA/registered with the old TC. V5 states emissions as per the TC (1200ppm, 4.5%). I swapped in the V6 and come next MOT it was tested to what the DVLA computer said...which was 1200ppm & 4.5% Not surprisingly it passed no problem. I did notify DVLA of the change of motor but there is a huge hole in the system it seems. Not that I'm suggesting we have to have another SVA every time we change the oil filter.........or the engine.........

[chris.richard]

Registered as "HAWK"
Sorry Chris, I meant the year.

[Chris J]

Sorry Chris, I meant the year.

The year is actually 2003.

[Chris J]

Chris, my car was built/SVA/registered with the old TC. V5 states emissions as per the TC (1200ppm, 4.5%)

Chris, I'm assuming this is in the 'V' section of the V5? Mine's just blank.

You're saying there won't be a problem with my car though?

[Sando]

Chris, my car was built/SVA/registered with the old TC. V5 states emissions as per the TC (1200ppm, 4.5%). I swapped in the V6 and come next MOT it was tested to what the DVLA computer said...which was 1200ppm & 4.5% Not surprisingly it passed no problem. I did notify DVLA of the change of motor but there is a huge hole in the system it seems. Not that I'm suggesting we have to have another SVA every time we change the oil filter.........or the engine.........

...Wot he said :)

Still not sure on your car Chris. I didn't remember your car having an 03 plate??

Mine was registered in 2003 but has an age related plate of '84 so as above uses the 84 emmis requirements. When the engine is swapped the only thing that changes on the V5 is the engine number. (Insurance goes up a bit though :rolleyes: )
The MOT system showed a blank on the testing level for mine anyway, so the tester just filled it in (for good, this will appear on the system next time he said) based on the A plate...

Bobster



Bobster

[Chris J]

Still not sure on your car Chris. I didn't remember your car having an 03 plate??

Rob, It's on a Q, but says first registered in 2003.

[Sando]

Ah...see your concern then. Must admit I'd not noticed! :o
Must have originally been tested at the Twinks age emmissions then to get through SVA? Might be worth asking Chris Smith he's probably got the most experience with SVA's (and took yours originally?) I would have thought he might have had to proove the age of the engine if there was no donor docs?

If it says nothing on the V5 for emmissions (like mine) then I think there is a fair bet it's still blank on the MOT system too.
Turning up with the quite recognisable late V6 in, with the V5 saying 2003 may cause some questions about a cat or (more accurately) the more strict emmissions test though? I think the onous is put on you to prove the age of the engine if the tester is not sure and sticks to the book. Having an age related plate defo helps here.
With the twink its more obviously an older engine so possibly easier to get away with it staying blank and not having to pass any more stringent levels.
.....May be worth getting an MOT with the twink in and getting the system updated with the year of that first (if that hasn't alrady been done?? do you know any friendly stations that will look up your reg on the system and see what it says??)

You're in a very grey area I think, unless there are some rules around a Q that I'm not aware of.

Rob

[Chris J]

Thanks Rob,

Apart from yourself, I can't think of anyone else who has a late engine in a car that's up and running? It's early days yet?

I hate these grey areas.

[strat6v]

Those on top of ya head as well? :D :D

[Chris J]

You're in a very grey area I think, unless there are some rules around a Q that I'm not aware of.

Rob

From what I've just read in the kit car section of PistonHeads (and that included a contribution from Chris S.) it would seem that I could actually be on to a winner as regards the Q plate.

All Q plated cars need only pass the pre 1975 visible smoke test. It's written here in some information advising the MOT testers themselves (page 8):

http://www.vosa.gov.uk/vosacorp/repository/MoT%20-%20Issue%2025%20-%20Oct%202004.pdf

All the issues of this MOT testers newsletter can be downloaded from here:
http://www.vosa.gov.uk/vosacorp/publications/newsletters/mattersoftesting.htm

Here's one of the PH threads:

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&t=334172&hw=+%2BQ+%2Bplate+%2Bemissions+%2BMOT+%2Btest

I ought to take more notice of what Chris S. says?

All of the above seems too good to be true, but I welcome any benefit of having a Q plate, because usually Q plates have no desirability?
It doesn't seem fair for age related plate owners though, mine being exempt simply because of the Q reg., no matter how recently the car was first registered/SVA's and how recent the age of a potential changed engine might be?

[Sando]

:) There you go then. I did think there may be some different rules around the Q plate.

[Sando]

:D :D :D :D Those on top of ya head as well? :D :D

Some of us haven't got them to worry about.. :D