Deep dish on a corse

[snurdf]

Hi all, got another one for you from my never ending list of questions.
I have heard that the 12" coffin spokes can't go on the Corse I. But are there any Corse I's with wide rear wheels or is it because the hubs are further out?
The reason for this question is that I consider the really deep dish rears to be one of the nicest aspects of the Stratos.
I'm trying to narrow down which kit to go for when the time comes. I really want mine to have the widies on the back.

Care to put me straight on the facts anyone. ;)

[chris.richard]

Hawk's coffin spokes will only fit Hawks or Lancias, not Corses. Gp4 Corses do have wider rear wheels, but the offsets of all Corse wheels is different from Hawk or Lancia.

[Swamprat33]

Hi guys.
Mick Worrall has 10x17 rears, but the offset means a very shallow dish.
My Corse has 7.5x16 rears and have no dish at all.

I would like to get some 9x16 Image wheels with a 245/40/16 Toyo's.
These look to be the widest 16" tyres available, and dont really want to move to 17" rims.
I need to take some measurements and send them to Image, so I can see what kind of dish I can get.

The problem is that the Corse does have a wider track than the Hawk.

Mick has used Alfa hubs, while I have Ford Scorpio pattern.

Cheers

Tim

[strat6v]

The Guys are right, Mick even tried some Hawk coffin spokes but the wheels were WAY out :eek: If you want the exact look of the original then it would be Hawk, If originality isn't too much of an issue then you have a choice.

The coffin spokes are real nice though :)

[snurdf]

I could do with some pics of various Corse's to do a wheel comparison. What are the Image wheels like Tim, any pics of them?
Come on lads it's an oppertunity to show off your Corse's ;)

[CorseChris]

...there you go. Corse S though, so maybe not a lot of help.

[snurdf]

Very nice Chris, now that picture has almost answered my question but poses a further question, does the Corse S have a narrower rear track than the Corse I?
I notice that the rears have a deep dish but they're not rediculuslly wide like the coffins. Is there much room between the inner side of the wheel and the suspension?
Looks well, that's for sure. Cheers Chris.
By the way, what size are they?

Come on guys.

[strat6v]

Read what Tryphon has mentioned regarding stratos wheels, stradale and group 4.

my uneducated view is that the strat was built for rallying, maximum acceleration, tight corners etc so on tarmac you would expect wide rubber on the back. Circuit racing is a different kettle of fish and probably suits a smaller difference in tire width.

It all boils down to what you want to use it for and how near to an original you want it to look. Wether tarmac or forest, Original, Hawk or Corse, once that back end lets go then you need super quick reflexes to catch it. Not many have.

Roy,

take a look in Catswhiskers gallery for his wheels. Oh and stick to a 295 maximum tyre width. The amount of times i've ben advised..... ;)

[mogul_x]

now that picture... poses a further question, does the Corse S have a narrower rear track than the Corse I?

From what I've seen, the Corse S rear suspension is very similar in concept to the Hawk, albeit somewhat different in execution - that is, a strut type suspension based on Lancia Beta parts. As such, the distance between the hubs (since track is measured at the center of the tire) is less than the Corse I.

I don't think Napiersport is taking orders on new "S" models, are they?

[snurdf]

So according to what Scott said about the corse S being narrower than the corse I it looks to me like you'll not have much room for a deep dish on the corse I.
John, when my car is finally built it will be pretty much a daily driver. I'm lucky in that I can survive without a car when necessary. It'll defo get treated to an odd track day but I don't think I'll be competing in it.
The main thing for me is that I have that beautiful rare beast that I fell in love with whilst playing "Top Trumps" all those years ago.

[CorseChris]

Morning Roy.

As Scott says, the Corse S has a similar setup at the back to the Hawk in that it has a lower wishbone and a strut, and is based on the Beta track. Differences are that the lower 'bone on the S is quite wide and it is attached on a true longitudinal axis, so zero rear bump steer. Lotus designed bump steer into the Elise, so it's not necessarily a bad thing as long as it's understood and intended. It is a bad thing if it's not adding to the handling of course!

Flying in the face of tradition, I didn't want super wide tyres. I have 225 section at the back and 205 at the front. These are figures recommended by the designers of the Corse chassis and fine for road use as far as I am concerned. Probably worth noting that the guys who do rallying in Corse' don't use particularly wide rubber at the back either. You'd have to ask them if they think it would help if they could. Are you there Marmott??, DW??

We used to have a Marcos Mantula and at one point I had 245/225 rear/front but it was over-tyred IMO, too much tramlining for one thing. I dropped it to 225/205 and it was a lot better. Totally different vehicle of course but the roads are the same. YMMV. I could have fitted at least 10" rims on the car at the back (probably 12") but I opted for 8 1/2" rear and 7 1/2" front (IIRC). The offset (inset?) at the rear is verging on comical with such a relatively narrow rim, and will no doubt increase rear bearing wear somewhat, but I can't see any other major issues. Waiting to be corrected as usual though! FWIW, I did at one point have a set of 14" wheels from a Hawk Stradale and they simply wouldn't fit. Front ones stuck out about 3", the rears wouldn't go over the lower wishbones. If you do opt for a Corse, you'll be obliged to get wheels machined for your car if you want a specific style. No problem in itself and no more expensive than buying a custom wheel for any car really. There are some OEM rim options that fit. Merc perhaps??

Never seen a deep dish rim on an 'I' myself so unless you want to get serious with the grinder (or extend the arches even further...), I don't think it's possible. Wide rims, certainly, but not the Carlos Fandango style like I have on my S.


HTH. E&OE, YMMV AIMO etc ;)

[strat6v]

Take a look at all the old works cars on tarmac, all would be on widish rubber at the rear. Flooring the pedal on a 300 bhp car with narrow rubber would see wheelspin and little traction. Most of the replicas used on rallies today look to be forest/gravel spec.

[CorseChris]

I suppose the person we should ask for an opinion, in regard to the CAE replicas at least, would be Neil Simons. He had in excess of 400bhp/400ftlb on a Corse S with 225 rear tyres. He did lots of successful sprinting as well, so I think he'd be qualified to comment. I've seen it said elsewhere, but tyre technology has improved over the years too. There's the Scott Racing Corse S as well - don't know what they used on that for circuit use.


It's all moot as far as I'm concerned though, the tyre width is as much about personal preference as anything else for most of us I think, and as such, we can only say what we prefer, not neccesarily what's 'right' or 'wrong'. If you want the Gp4 look, you either have to have comedy offset and an 8 or 9" rim like I have, very wide rims & tyres, or a Corse I with a narrower section. Take your pick! I ended up with Gp4 arches on my car by default, not choice as such. I'm happy with the way it turned out but Stradale would have been fine too. I might come to change my view if my supercharger plans work out and I find I have 300bhp to deal with.........

[catswhiskers]

Well Roy,
Suppose it's time for me to add my twopenneth.
As already said here, the Corse I is wider than the Hawk. Regarding my car, I have modified the running gear to use Alfa hubs, brakes and driveshafts. The end result, as best I could calculate, is that my rear track is about 2" narrower than the Corse on Scorpio hubs. Not a lot but enough to make a difference. I had my wheels made specially by Image and the rears are 10"wide and run 275 wide tyres. In my humble opinion, that is plenty. As has already been stated, when they let go, there is no warning and I have only managed to catch it on a couple of occasions (more luck that skill ). Obviously, I'm refering to track use there. ;)
In general road use, even the 275 tyres tend to follow any surface repairs or 'tramlines' in the tarmac. You have to be constantly aware that the car is as twitchy as everyone says.
I agree that the wide coffin spokes are a very attractive feature but can't say how practical they are in everyday use.
For reference, I calculated that the widest tyres that the Corse can accomodate (on Alfa Hubs) is 305. At that point, the tyre would virtually rub on the Shocker body during cornering. Not good. :eek:
Whatever you decide, consider the 'everyday' aspect of things. Good luck.
Mick

[Swamprat33]

One way round this of course is to fit full width mud flaps on a group 4 car, that way no one can see from the back how narrow the tyres are :D :p :D

Seriously though, I want some 9" rears, but not sure if they will fit my Corse i, and if they do, then I am sure there will be no dish.
Here is a pic of my car, so you can see a standard i with Scorpio hubs.

[snurdf]

Thanks Mick & thanks everyone. So I was right in my assumptions, oh well :( .
I would really like a big wide coffin spoked beast sat on the drive but the Corse looks like a more straightforward build & cheaper too.
On the other hand, I'm also starting to think about the practicallity issues aswell.
It's a good job I don't have to choose by the end of the week :D .

Thanks for your help everyone.

Until the next question.

[Swamprat33]

.... And here is a picture from the rear.... YUCK - just realised this is a VERY old photo with the original exhaust (that i HATED)

[CorseChris]

One way round this of course is to fit full width mud flaps on a group 4 car, that way no one can see from the back how narrow the tyres are :D :p :D
.

Mudflaps is still on my to-do list as it happens. I've got the Kaylan and everything...just never quite got round to doing it as yet. I know my car looks a bit odd from the back with all the suspension that's normally buried inside the rim clearly visible. I was going to hide that particular sin with the mudflaps. Plus I think they look quite good.

[Bernard]

Photo of my Gr4... plus there are some others in the gallery
http://www.stratossupersite.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=768&sort=1&cat=500&page=1

Bernard

[snurdf]

Nice Bernard, that's what I want but it looks like the only way is the Hawk.

What kind of wheels are those by the way, I like them as much as the coffins.

[strat6v]

They are the coffins, on Bernie's Hawk.

[snurdf]

They are the coffins, on Bernie's Hawk.

Sorry, I was looking at some pics of Bernards car on page 2 of his gallery where it has some white chunky five spokes on. At least I assumed it was the same car. :o

[catswhiskers]

One way round this of course is to fit full width mud flaps on a group 4 car, that way no one can see from the back how narrow the tyres are :D :p

I must admit, I like the mudflap look too and they are a practical addition too.
Just look at the crud on those rears at Oulton Park. :eek:

[Chris J]

it has some white chunky five spokes on.:o

Yes, it's the same car, but earlier in 'ERiC's' life.

It's timely that Matt posted this Image Wheels web page:

http://www.imagewheels.co.uk/pages/wheels_cast.html

Those white wheels are the RS7 type, I think? Image seem to do a nice range these days? Cheaper than Hawk coffin spokes, but still quite an expense to put a new set together? Maybe it's better to put some sort of secondhand split rim set together first and save for some coffin spokes if that what's you want ultimately?

[chris.richard]

8x15" Revolutions on a Hawk Stradale - (before I sorted the ride height! :rolleyes:). Looks good in my eyes! :)

[chris.richard]

PS Pity the engine is now a pile of scrap! :mad:

[strat6v]

what you doing with the engine Chris? Are the remains for sale?

[SUSIT]

PS Pity the engine is now a pile of scrap! :mad:

Ouch Chris, have you found out what broke?
12 valve ? and rally logbook

[chris.richard]

It's parked up in a mates garage just now - garage in the new house isn't operational yet, so I don't know when I'll get into it. Sounds like the bottom end now. I took the rear cam cover off and stuck a boroscope in (actually an old up-your-a***oscope), but the piston/valves are OK, and no sign of timing mischief. I wonder if the sump baffling wasn't up to the roundy roundy stuff, but Roger and John seem to race OK with standard sumps.

[strat6v]

Candidate for an accusump?

[chris.richard]

what you doing with the engine Chris? Are the remains for sale?

Not at the moment.