Roll cage

[SUSIT]

I am trying to locate the rear section of the roll over bar so i can attach door bars. So far i have removed the interenal bulkhead and lots of expanding foam but cant locate the vertical section. David can you post a picture showing how it is fitted to give me some clues. Allora kit.

Stephen Struthers

[Stratos]

Will find some pics for you.

[Stratos]

Pics in Gallery

Stratos Replicas
Kit Construction
Other

[SUSIT]

Thanks David, very helpful. Viewing this at work screen resolution
poor ++.
Does the cage stop at the upper horizontal 2 X 2 section or does it go through and mount on the sill. ( cant tell on my screen if that is tube or flat/box section.
Sorry to be a pest. Seeing scruitineer tonight so i hope to make progress with log book over next few weeks. Shame work gets in the way!

Stephen Struthers.
Ps did you get article?

[SUSIT]

David. Thanks for the photos. I have now managed to look at them on a normal screen. To be honest i cant see how i can get it passed for log booking without re doing the complete rear section. My understanding of the rule states it must be a complete section from the floor behind the driver . This only mounts at shoulder level. I agree what it mounts to is substantial but i am doubtful that it conforms to current regs. Your comment would be useful.

Stephen Struthers

[John]

stephen,
I was a little put out when I saw the Allora pics from Dave- thats not really what I would call a rollcage! I have put a comment on the photos to that effect. As I mentioned there the CAE version of this chassis has a rear hoop which comprises of two tube hoops welded together both of which extend from "floor " level, and form a substantial structure, and on studying Dave's pics I'm glad thats what I bought. I would not loose heart though because Dave has a log book for his car, so a similar chassis should not have a problem either. Dave, was your chassis not one of the very first supplied?

[David May]

I've downloaded a rear view of a recent CAE Corse I chassis which clearly shows the rear of the twin rear-roll-bars. The forward one is similar but runs forward from below the rear window level.

Dave May

[SUSIT]

I have had my local friendly scruitineer check the car over last night.
The present front section seems to be undersize, 35mm diameter. should be 38mm
We both dont like the idea of mounting door bars so high at the rear. It must make getting in and out difficult.
At present it is difficult to see where a rear diagonal would mount without cutting away a section of the rear bodywork.
All is not lost however. He is going to speak with the top RAC guy.
He agrees chasis is exceptionaly strong.
We think a solution would be to mount a second internal full rear
hoop mounted on the sill / floor and welded to the exsisting cage at the top. Difficult but achievable. We would then be able to mount the door bars very low down giving protection to the pelvis.
The diagonal can the be mounted inside the car top corner to bottom corner on the new rear section.
I will need to wait until he meets up with this other guy from the RAC in a few weeks time.

Stephen Struthers

[Stratos]

Stephen,

I don't understand why your scrutineer is asking you to do all that you mention.

A diagonal is NOT necessary for rallies. This is clearly stated in the Blue Book, section Q.1.5.1, and I quote "The compulsory diagonal member for all events except rallies". It is further confirmed in K37.13.1, and I quote "Be equipped with a safety roll-over bar to Q.1.5.1 drawing number Q37. Dotted lines are optional." When you look at drawing Q37, the diagonals are dotted, but the door bars are not.


Why does he want you to put in a rear hoop? Because it does not reach to the "floor"?

You have to remember the Allora does not have a chassis like a normal car. The rear hoop reaches down to the "chassis" as required by the Blue Book.

The drawings in the Blue Book are examples only, and show the rear hoop coming down to "floor level" because that is where the "chassis" is in most vehicles, eg Escort, etc.



Re: Door bars - I initially had the same reservations as you, but I haven't found them to be a problem, and, in actual fact, it's easier to get out with my door bars than with door bars that are horizontal, because horizontal door bars mean your leg has to be lifted up and over, whereas mine have a low point where your leg/ankle passes out and the actual door bar provides a pivot point for your hip as you roll your body out. (That's not a very good explanation of the technique - you have to see it to understand).


I don't think anyone ever measured the front legs on my car.


3 separate Scrutineers were involved in the log-booking of my car. First I took the car to a National A Scrutineer, while the foam was removed from the rear section, and he was the one who told me what to do. Then when this had all been done and the car was log-booked at it's first event, two more scruntineers checked it over. This all happened back in 1999.


Regarding the comment that it is a very strong chassis - I can vouch for that first hand. Had the accident that we had on the Solent Stages occured in a "convential" car, I'm not sure we would have walked away from it with so little damage. The marshals who witnessed it stated to me later that when they were watching they thought the car would be demolished on impact!!

Let me know how you get on.

[SUSIT]

Thanks for the info David.
I will speak further with the scrutineer. will let you know of the out come.


Stephen Struthers

[Stratos]

Stephen,

I'm not telling you not to do anything to your car.

If you feel adding additional diagonals, rear hoop, etc, etc will make the car safer, or will make the you feel more at ease driving it, then go ahead and do it. The safer you feel in your car, the quicker you will drive it, and enjoy driving it.

Just be aware of the actual Blue Book requirements, and don't be bullied into doing unnecessary modifications.

AND, if you need ay further information, or pictures of anything on my car, please let me know and I'll try and provide them to you.

[rutthenut]

Although I'm not that familiar with the Allora chassis, it isn't too different to that of the Transformer/Hawk kits.

I'd certainly go along with Dave's comments that you may not have to do too much to comply with the regulations, and also agree that that doesn't mean you won' want to make further modifications for safety improvements.

The Transformer chassis was issued with a 'roll cage certificate' that indicated that its design and fabrication met all the requirements for loading and mounting points. That doesn't include the door bars, which are needed for racing or rallying.

I think I put a copy of the certificate in the images section of this site (or was it on the Yahoo site?) and that shows the part of the chassis that is deemed to be the roll cage structure. This includes the main hoop that extends only to the top of the very substantial rear chassis members, plus the forward legs and hoop assembly and the rear diagonal stays (which also go to the chassis top).

That seems to me to show that the authorities (at the time) were happy that the mounting points for the rear hoop did not have to be on the 'floor' of the car, due to the spaceframe-type chassis construction of this particular style of vehicle.

I think that either Allora and/or Corse chassis have been given roll cage certificates from the MSA too, but cannot be sure of that.

Hope that helps in some way.

[Stratos]

Originally posted by rutthenut
I think that either Allora and/or Corse chassis have been given roll cage certificates from the MSA too, but cannot be sure of that.


The Allora only had a brief lifespan as a product, and I don't think the owners of the company ever got round to arranging an MSA certificate - certainly, I've never seen evidence of one.

Hugh Carson arranged an MSA Certificate for the Corse, while he was producing that, and I have a copy of that certificate.

[Stratos]

Originally posted by rutthenut
that shows the part of the chassis that is deemed to be the roll cage structure. This includes the main hoop that extends only to the top of the very substantial rear chassis members, plus the forward legs and hoop assembly and the rear diagonal stays (which also go to the chassis top).



This is pretty much the same as Stephen's Allora.

Thanks for the info, John.

[SUSIT]

Thanks again David and John.
Dont worry David i dont feel i am being got at in any way. I am only glad of all the advice available from the forum.
I will get round it some way you can be sure of that. The local scruitineer is actually a very helpful guy and is keen to see the stratos out competing and has stated he will help all he can. Its very encouraging to be able to get so much help to get out there and compete. Other sports i have been involved with are less than helpful. I suppose its why i keep coming back to motersport despite the cost.
John, can i clarify that the Hawk/Transformer is similar to the allora as far as the rear hoop is concerned?
If that is the case how have you mounted the door bars on your cars?

Stephen Struthers

PS For anyone interested the same scruitineer is involved in plans for a closed road 88 mile stage rally based Golspie 45 miles north of Inverness. It goes to the Scottish excect. in a month or two.
might be too late for this year but hopfully on for next year.

[Stratos]

Originally posted by SUSIT
PS For anyone interested the same scruitineer is involved in plans for a closed road 88 mile stage rally based Golspie 45 miles north of Inverness. It goes to the Scottish excect. in a month or two.
might be too late for this year but hopfully on for next year.

Tarmac - like the Jim Clark?

[SUSIT]

just like the Jim Clark but better!

[chris.richard]

He's posted pictures of his door bars on the forum before - try the search facility.

[rutthenut]

Originally posted by SUSIT
John, can i clarify that the Hawk/Transformer is similar to the allora as far as the rear hoop is concerned?
If that is the case how have you mounted the door bars on your cars?

I think it's fair to say that the rear hoop section is quite similar. You can see this from the diagram on the roll cage certificate on the Yahoo club site - see http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/stratosreplicaclub/vwp?.dir=/Hawk+Roll+Bar+Cert&.dnm=MSA+Roll+Bar+diagram.gif&.src=gr&.view=t&.hires=t

The door bars are mounted low in the front part of the door aperture and go to an additional braced section that was added in the area of the door lock mounting panel. This links together the door bars, door lock panel and large boxed diagonal section of the central chassis members in the firewall area. Not too easy to explain, but this is an area in which I think the Allora will have more differences in chassis layout.

I did put photos of my doorbar installation in this forum - go to the picture gallery if you want to see those, if that helps at all.

Cheers,

[SUSIT]

Thanks John
Some useful pics. With this amount of information i dont think it will be that difficult to persude the powers to be to log book the car with a small amount of work.


Stephen Struthers

[BETANUT]

Steve,

Let me know about the rally - I'll always come up and lend a hand/support/make tea/cook for a day!!
Sounds like an excellent idea, not enough bashes on tarmac up our way - might even be tempted to produce a Beta for such events in a year or ten:D

[GMC]

Having just got my Hawk car I was a bit shocked at the roll cage ! small. to say the least. For our regs (Ireland) all cars log booked after '94 require the main hoop to be 45mm min. and the rest 38mm
The this moment my option is remove the roof and have a new cage fitted or rally the CAE (which I do not want to do).

Gerard.

[mogul_x]

Gerard,

The Hawk cage doesn't quite pass US specifications either. Tubes are a couple of millimeters too small in diameter, and a fraction to light in thickness to pass SCCA (Sports Car Club of America) regs.

Fortunately, I have no plans to race my car in any series that requires a roll cage. Otherwise, I'd need to do some major surgery, as you indicated.

I'm surprised that you wouldn't want to use the CAE for rallying. I thought the general consensus was that it was slightly better suited to competiton than the Hawk. Is it a matter of being too far along as a road car build?

[GMC]

Scott,
Yes, my CAE is totally finished and on the road since last year, and was beautifull finished inside and out, far too nice to go rallying it.
and yes I did think about it, but then I would have to build the Hawk as a road version and by the time it would be fully trimmed I feel a few years could eaisly past by !

Gerard Mc Carthy.

[chris.richard]

Originally posted by GMC
Having just got my Hawk car I was a bit shocked at the roll cage ! small. to say the least. For our regs (Ireland) all cars log booked after '94 require the main hoop to be 45mm min. and the rest 38mm
The this moment my option is remove the roof and have a new cage fitted or rally the CAE (which I do not want to do).

Gerard.

This is all a bit alarming - is it likely then that it will be impossible to logbook a Hawk (or Corse for that matter) without this level of adaptation? I think that would rule it out for me.

[rutthenut]

Originally posted by chris.richard
This is all a bit alarming - is it likely then that it will be impossible to logbook a Hawk (or Corse for that matter) without this level of adaptation?

I would hope that the 'roll cage certificate' would be the answer to this particular regulation. Then again, that was issued some years ago and it is possible that the rules might have changed since then to no longer accept this (in the UK and/or Ireland?).

Seems like another topic to talk to the log book scrutineers about in very short order if you are looking to go rallying, but do mention the roll cage certification.

This may not be such an issue after all though, as there are clearly a number of Allora/Corse/Transformer kits that have been rallied in the UK over the years. Wouldn't they all have been affected by this ruling?

Maybe it is just something in the Irish regulations, for which it may be possible to get a special dispensation based on the roll cage certification (although this was issued by the MSA in the UK, not Eire)?

[SUSIT]

Is this somthing we should be discussing on the open forum? As you point out there are people competing who may be affected. I phoned Dave with the results of trying to log book my car.

Stephen Struthers

[shaun]

A number of potential competitors have had problems getting logbooks. Has this been sorted out or is this not the place to discuss the problem? I half heartidly tried to look at the transformer roll cage cert. on yahoo but the registration asked too many question. Would anyone like to paste this into this site?

This has been prompted by the HF2000 offered for sale, bit exspensive at the moment though.

[rutthenut]

Originally posted by shaun
Would anyone like to paste this into this site?

Here's a quick copy of the certificate - which you can purchase direct from the MSA for a small fee if you need one.

[Stratos]

There is also a similar roll cage certificate for the Corse.


However, time moves on, and rules change, so it is up to any purchaser to verify the suitability of the kit they buy, whether new or secondhand, for the purpose they wish to use it for,

Living in France, Shaun, a car you wish to have registered for competition by the French authorities will probably have to conform to different rules to UK, or Ireland, or USA, etc, etc.

[shaun]

Thanks for the cert. not sure if it will print out ok but I do not have the car yet.

As for French competition, the Stratos replicas may be tolerated as course cars but nothing else. I have not bothered to talk to any organisers for the last few months but I still think that anything other than modern cars or true historics will not be given an entry.

The uk is very special as far as kit cars, modified cars and rallies go. Hope it lasts!

[Stratos]

Gary Lomas managed to do some events in northern France, running in the "Specials" class, but had trouble on the last event he did, because the rules had changed, and he nearly didn't start.

Apparently the rules changed so that "Specials" can't have engine sizes greater than 2litre. The organisers had to get special permission to allow Gary to run, and that was only recieved on the morning of the rally.

But, maybe there's a precendent there which could be used for future French rallies.

[SUSIT]

Originally posted by Stratos
Stephen,



A diagonal is NOT necessary for rallies. This is clearly stated in the Blue Book, section Q.1.5.1, and I quote "The compulsory diagonal member for all events except rallies". It is further confirmed in K37.13.1, and I quote "Be equipped with a safety roll-over bar to Q.1.5.1 drawing number Q37. Dotted lines are optional." When you look at drawing Q37, the diagonals are dotted, but the door bars are not.

let me know how you get on.

Hi There, Years later we get to the point where the new cage is made and being fitted ( see pics in gallery ) and it looks like the rules have changed?
Scruitineer came down to check new cage out and we had a frank discussion re a rear diagonal. We got 2003 rule book out and it would seem section Q.1.5.1 has changed and I will indeed need a diagonal to meet the current requirements. He did say he would check and indeed admited in the Allora it would be overkill, however he dont make the rules.
.Now before you all panic remember this only applies to cars without a roll cage certificate which both the Hawk and Corse have.
secondly it is only because I want to log book the car for special stage rallying.
Just as well I bought a more powerful engine with all the extra weight in metal to carry around.

Progress is being made and he did say it was one of the best fitting cages he had seen in a long time.

[Stratos]

Stephen,

Some CORSE chassis had a removeable diagonal going from the back top chassis member to the centre hoop. In fact, some had twin diaganols.

It shouldn't be difficult to fit a diaganol.

HOWEVER, I would caution you to fit the V6 FIRST, because the V6 engine sits quite high in the Allora due to the chassis design, and you'll want to ensure that the diaganol will clear the plenum chamber, etc.

[SUSIT]

Nae problem,
The diagonal can be in the cockpit, top corner rear hoop to opposite lower corner. Easy to do and little to get in way, Need to be careful with area gearlinkage sits and wont know that for sure until engine is in. Still a chance they might let me leave it out but that may mean applying for a Roll cage certificate involving a engineers analysis of the structure. I see £10 notes dissapearing before my eyes. Think I will do as the man asks, easy and cheap.

Stephen

[Marmott]

The corse cage is certified by the MSA,
To rally in France they accept this certificate , if supported by the rally log book.
The Corse can rally in France in class F19 , this is unhomologated cars over 2000cc.
However there is amove afoot to ban all cars in this class from the end of the year , this would include chevettes, sunbeams, asconas, mantas.
However they will be ok in post historic classes when run in the rally.
However our kit cars of any make will not be eligible for historic rallying,
So it looks like , unless you have less than 2000cc , thats it in France.
But Belgium may be ok. as they are including a national class alongside there internastional and national group a and n rallies.

Ireland , Mecca of all things Tarmac, and Guinnes, I am told they may accept UK log books , but the organising body is not a fan of kit cars/Darrians.

I am persuing this as I see this as a way forward next year,
However if the rules do change to insist on International licenses , then Im not going to the extra expense fo 1 or 2 rallies

This is important to me as if the rules do mount up I will look to sell my car and go back to Minis , Ive still got 1.
Holland is also a no go at the moment,
I wonder about Italy though

[David May]

It's looking dodgy in Italy too! The only classes left are for cars with expired Italian homologation. I've got away with running as a demonstration car (ie. excluded fom the results) on some events and being nodded through as a Stratos on regularity events (ie. no speed) but it's getting tougher all the time.

Dave May

[David May]

Back to the metal: Stephen, why are the rear seat belt eyes on brackets below the rear chassis rail? Is that a scrutineers request?

Dave May

[SUSIT]

Originally posted by David May
Back to the metal: Stephen, why are the rear seat belt eyes on brackets below the rear chassis rail? Is that a scrutineers request?

Dave May

Afternoon Dave
I did the seat belt eyes prior to last years Abingdon, on taking the inner bulkhead out to see how to mount them it became apparant that without removing huge amounts of foam that this was the easy way to get them excactly in the right position in relation to the slots in the seats.
I may change the mounting method now that all the metal work is exposed, however they are in the right place and the right height for me.

Stephen