MSA and K37

[John]

Got a phone call from Steve Ellis last night to draw my attention to the article in this weeks Motoring News. I have not seen it yet but have asked my newsagent to get me a copy for tomorrow. Apparently it says that approval for limited production chassis types must be done and dusted by April this year, otherwise log books will expire in 2009(?) and not be renewable.
I have to admit that I have let this slip from my mind over the past few months so I need to get on with it.
I will be contacting all Allora/Litton/CAE/Napiersport owners very soon now, hopefully to gather together a "database" of everybodies chassis numbers, registration marks, MSA logbook details (if applicable) a photograph and hopefully a short word document from each owner in support of our application for type approval. Lionel has a database of the chassis numbers we are sure of, but we will have to make do with photographic evidence of the cars that went to Japan, New Zealand and South Africa.
Steve tells me that Darrian owners have done this with a positive outcome.
Do any of you Hawk/Transformer owners know if Gerry has made a similar approach to the MSA?

[Shaun II]

I would be really pleased if Gerry could do something, I'll be suprised if he does it just for me though. Anyone else interested in log booking hawks, actually mines a transformer which might really b....r up proceedings?

[Shaun II]

Could always sell it and purchase a Corse!

[John]

Glad to oblige anytime Shaun!

[SUSIT]

John,
This is very worrying. I bought motorsport news today and I have not yet read it all however I did miss anything that talked about an April cut off!!
On a more positive note it did say a Darrian could still be used under the proposed new rules provided it was fitted with a car derived engine. They also had said the consultation process was continuing until April. I think that low volume cars like ours will get passed but we all need to write in with our comments, so please everyone pass on your concerns too Ian Davies the MSA rallies executive at
idavis@msauk.org
Don't leave it too late.

Cheers
Stephen Struthers

[John]

Stephen,
yes by all means everyone make an individual contribution.
It's just with my "manufacturers" hat on that I think Napiersport needs to make a presentation to emphasize the low volume production status of the Allora/Corse.
As I said, I've not read the article myself yet. Just going off what Steve told me, but as Steve has become quite clued up on the whole business during his struggle to get log-booked, he is probably going off further information than just the Motorsport News article.

[Achahoish]

37.1. Eligible Cars
All cars must comply with Section E12 of these regulations, and all statutory regulations concerning
the construction and use of vehicles. In addition cars must;

a) Be currently registered and taxed as a private car, unless specific event regulations relax the
requirement for taxation, by virtue of the entire event taking place wholly on private property,
b) Hold registration documents and, where a car is required by law to have a certificate, a valid
MOT Certificate. These documents must be produced at scrutineering for all events, irrespective of
whether or not part of the event takes place on the Public Highway,
c) Hold a valid MSA Competition Car Log Book that must be produced at scrutineering, [E
11.3.2], AND
d) Display registration plates in compliance with the current Road Vehicles (Display of
Registration Marks) Regulations.

37.1.1. Category 1. Those that have been homologated in Groups ‘A’ or ‘N’ of the FIA Appendix ‘J’,
or Groups 1, 2, 3 or 4 of the 1981 FIA Appendix ‘J’, Non-homologated Series Production Cars, or
Specialist Production Cars.
Modifications are free within MSA Vehicle Regulations and as defined below in 37.2 to 37.10. The car
must be in the configuration as supplied by the manufacturer, with the engine (any production car
engine or Specialist Competition Engine) in the original location and with the original form of
induction for the car, normally aspirated or forced induction.
The original means of forced induction is limited to the original fuel type.
Cars must retain the original number of, and location of, driven wheels, Front Wheel Drive (FWD),
Rear Wheel Drive (RWD) or Four Wheel Drive (4WD), except where a 4WD car, other than a
Specialist Production Car, is converted to Two Wheel Drive (2WD) without structural alteration.
37.1.2. Category 2. Any car not complying with 37.1.1 that may be authorised for use at the
discretion of the MSA.
Such authorisation will only be granted for cars which retain the original manufacturer’s
chassis/bodywork/unitary construction, which must not have been substantially altered.
Modifications are free within MSA Vehicle Regulations and as defined below in 37.2 to 37.10.
The conversion of front wheel drive cars to rear wheel drive (or four wheel drive) is permitted subject
to the body construction alterations being limited to those shown in FIA Appendix J Drawings 279-1
and 279-2.
Cars must be fitted with an engine in compliance with 37.3.
Full Guidelines for approval and to make application for a Category 2 Competition Car Log Book are
available on request from the MSA.
37.2. Body
The term body shall include bodywork, bodyshell, unitary construction etc.

37.2.1. Have a bulkhead between any fuel tank and filler and driver/passenger compartment
sufficient to prevent the passage of flame or liquid. Where a fuel tank constitutes part of a bulkhead
between passenger and luggage compartment, an additional bulkhead must be fitted. Additional fuel
tank protection may be required.
37.2.2 All bodyshells, inclusive of removable panels and parts must be of the vehicle manufacturers
specified materials, specifications and thickness with the exception of bonnet, front wings, bumpers
and boot lids which may be of alternative materials. Hatchback and estate cars may not be fitted with
alternative tailgates.
Seam welding, and localised gussets/reinforcement where no dimension of the gusset/reinforcement
exceeds 150mm in any direction, is permitted,
37.2.3 Front wings and rear wings/rear quarter panels, and inner wings, may be modified solely for
the purpose of fitting wheel arch extensions.
37.2.4 With the exception of cars accepted under 37.1.2, and cars with modifications conforming to
their homologation papers (37.1.1), floor pans, bulkheads and transmission tunnels may not be
modified other than by localised alteration to accommodate the fitting of an alternative engine and/or
gearbox and/or differential and/or axle. Provision of access holes purely to facilitate use of an
alternative or modified gearbox control system is permitted, and the internal routing of pipes and
wires, and safety equipment is permitted.
37.2.5 Glass sunroofs are not permitted. Sunroofs may be of a non-shattering solid rigid material
other than glass. Any sunroof must be firmly secured in the closed position. The sunroof aperture
may be closed by solid material permanently fitted in place.
37.2.6. Windscreens to be of laminated type only. Side windows if of glass must be of laminated or
safety glass and if of safety glass must be coated on the inside with a transparent safety film of
between 50 and 100 microns thickness.
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Review of K37

37.2.7 Where advertising is allowed on windscreens it must not obscure the driver’s vision nor
reduce the minimum unobstructed vertical height to less than 25cm.
37.2.8. The fitting of mud flaps behind all four wheels extending to a minimum of 4cm each side of
the tyre tread and a maximum of 8cm above the ground is mandatory.
37.2.9. Towing eyes of adequate strength and size must be fitted front and rear within the confines
of the body. They must be painted a distinctive and contrasting colour.
37.3. Engine
37.3.1. Comply with the following specification and actual capacity limits:
i) Production engines with a maximum of six cylinders:

a) Forced induction petrol or LPG -2,000cc

b) Forced induction or naturally aspirated diesel – 2,500cc

c) Naturally aspirated petrol or LPG with more than 2 valves per cylinder – 2,500cc

d) Naturally aspirated petrol or LPG with maximum of 2 valves per cylinder – 3,000cc

e) Metro 6R4 2800cc Single Plenum engine complying with MSA Specification, exclusive

to 6R4s and may be used in MSA approved Championships only.

ii) Specialist Competition Engines
a) Naturally aspirated
b) No more than four cylinders.
c) No more than four valves per cylinder
d) Maximum capacity of 2,500cc
e) Petrol or LPG fuel only


37.3.2. Forced Induction engines must be fitted with a restrictor at a maximum of 50mm from the
extremes of the compressor blades. The restrictor orifice to be to the dimensions currently in force in
FIA Appendix ‘J’. Where there are two forms of forced induction fitted, the restrictor must not exceed
the appropriate FIA Appendix ‘J’ dimensions. Provision must be made for fitting seals to the unit(s).
37.3.3. If fitted with a different engine not have a capacity increase of more than 25% over the
engine capacity of that of the vehicle model as supplied by the vehicle manufacturer as original
equipment.
37.4 Transmission Systems
37.4.1. The transmission system is free. The use of active front and rear differentials, i.e. any
system acting directly on the differential adjustments (initial stress, pressure…), is forbidden, only
entirely mechanical systems are allowed. None of the parameters of the front and rear differentials
can be modified except with the help of tools when the car is stopped. Passive viscous differentials
are considered mechanical and are permitted.
37.4.2. The gear selection system may be modified or replaced by an alternative system.
37.5. Suspension, Wheels and Tyres
37.5.1 With the exception of cars accepted under 37.1.2, and cars with modifications conforming to
their homologation papers (37.1.1), the suspension must retain the operating principle and utilise the
mounting points as provided by the vehicle manufacturer. Strengthening of the sprung parts of the
chassis and bodywork is allowed provided that the material used is the same material as the
chassis/bodywork and follows the original shape and is contact with it. Springs, shock absorbers, anti-
roll bars and control arms and links may be uprated.
Only mechanically operated anti-roll bar systems are authorised. The anti-roll setting can only be
adjusted directly by the driver, using an exclusively mechanical system without external power. Any
connection between dampers is forbidden. Any connections between front and rear anti-roll bars are
forbidden. The ride height must be adjustable only with the use of tools and when the car is
immobile. Any servo control activating a power circuit acting directly or indirectly on the suspension
parts is forbidden. Any electronic control system for the shock absorbers is forbidden.
37.5.2. Not be fitted with spiked or studded tyres or any non-skid attachments, other than chains if
permitted in SRs.
37.5.3. Have all spare wheels securely fastened in position.
37.5.4. Have complete wheels free providing that they can be housed within the original bodywork
(including wing extensions) and that they do not exceed the widths in the following capacity
divisions:
up to 1000cc 5.5in
up to 1400cc 6.0in
up to 1600cc 7.5in
up to 2000cc 8.5in
over 2000cc 9.0in

Page 2 of 4

[Achahoish]

Pages 3 & 4


Review of K37

Note. Wheel widths relate to the capacity of the vehicle, inclusive of the forced induction coefficient,
not the class divisions of the event.


Homologated FIA Appendix ‘J’ rim diameters may be increased by up to a maximum of 2in.
The complete wheel (flange + rim + tyre) shall be measured with the tyre at normal running
pressure. The measurement of the width will be taken at the widest point of the complete wheel,
above hub level.


37.5.5. Have tyres complying with Section R.
37.5.6. The use of any device for maintaining the performance of the tyre with an internal pressure
equal to or less than atmospheric pressure is forbidden. The interior of the tyre (space between the
rim and the internal part of the tyre) must be filled only with air or nitrogen. This does not preclude
the use of inner tubes.
37.5.7. The use of tyre heating devices is prohibited.
37.6. Braking Systems
37.6.1. Braking systems may be modified including fitment of uprated components, conversion of
drum brakes to disc brakes and use of alternative friction materials. The use of non-metallic brake
discs is not permitted.
37.6.2. All vehicles must be equipped with a parking brake meeting vehicle construction and use
requirements which may be applied at any speed and is effective in restraining the vehicle on a 1:6
gradient.
37.7. Fuel Systems
37.7.1. If the filler cap is of the quick release type or where the vehicle has been fitted with a non-
standard filler, be fitted with a recessed fuel filler cap.
37.7.2. Use Fuel as defined in Section P.
37.7.3. Fuel lines may be installed within the driver/passenger compartment on safety grounds.
[E12.13.].
37.7.4. Cars must be fitted with a self seal connector of a type approved by the FIA, located within
the engine bay to facilitate the drawing of fuel samples. The mating coupling complete with a suitable
length of hose to be connected, is to be carried onboard the car in order that fuel samples may be
drawn at anytime as required by the organisers".
37.8. Electrical
37.8.1. Have all lights fitted in compliance with the current Motor Vehicle Lighting Regulations.
37.8.2. Not use any auxiliary lights in road sections except in conditions of fog or falling snow as
permitted by law.
37.8.3. Have any forward facing lights, additional to the headlight system, sidelights and indicators,
considered as auxiliary lights.
37.9. Vehicle Weight Limits
All homologated cars must conform to the minimum weights stated in their homologation documents.
All non-homologated cars must conform to the minimum weights in the table below. The only
exceptions are vehicles that have a specified minimum weight recorded in their MSA Competition Car
Log Book.
The checking of vehicle weights will be as set out in FIA Appendix J.
Engine Capacity Minimum Weight
Up to 1000cc 720kg
Up to 1400cc 840kg
Up to1600cc 920kg
Up to 2000cc 1000kg
Up to 2500cc 1080kg
Up to 3000cc 1150kg
Up to 3500cc 1230kg
Up to 4000cc 1310kg
Note. Minimum weights relate to the capacity of the vehicle, inclusive of the forced induction
coefficient, not the class divisions of the event.

37.10. Safety
37.10.1. Have, as a minimum, safety roll-over bars complying with regulation Q1, drawing number
Q5 or Q6, and longitudinal door bars complying with Q1.2.5(b) (side sections drawing number Q9).
37.10.2. Be equipped with an internal switch that is capable of isolating all electrical circuits and
completely stopping the engine. The operating switch must be positioned so that it can be operated
by the driver or the co-driver when normally seated with seat belts fastened. Must also be equipped
with an external circuit beaker complying with Q8.
37.10.3. Have currently FIA Homologated seat belts complying with Q 2.1.2.
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Review of K37

37.10.4. Be equipped with fire extinguishers complying with Q3.1.4 and also all the relevant parts of
Q3. The driver and co-driver must each be able to activate the extinguishers when normally seated
with seat belts fastened.
37.10.5. Be fitted with front seats that are currently FIA homologated.
37.10.6. Have substantial underbody protection covering any area of a fuel tank exposed to running
damage.
37.10.7. Be equipped with high-intensity horns that can be operated by either the driver or the co-
driver.
37.10.8. Competing cars must carry an Emergency Red Warning Triangle and an SOS/OK Board
(15.5.)
37.10.9. If a camera is carried, the fitting must be specifically approved by a Scrutineer.
Date of Implementation: 1st January 2009

Reason: The complete review of stage rally tehnical regualtions to address issues of
safety, vehicle constrcution and ever increasing performance.

Page 4 of 4

[John]

I have a rough list now of 47 cars both Allora and Corse.
Thats cars which actually exist at the moment, some still being built (or about to be!)
and some already departed (Neil Simons and Lionels old rally car-both destroyed by fire).
I will fill in as many details as I can over the next couple of weeks and I'll post it here, with some photographs if possible.
Then it's up to the RAC.
Sent a message to Ian Davis today asking for any advice he can give.
I wonder how many Darrians ever got to be built?

[John]

I think I'm up to 49 cars now and still have not spoken to Steve Greenwood or Hugh to check with them for any I don't know about.
No input from any Hawk/Transformer owners on this?
Or are you keeping something close to your chests?

[Bob]

You can have details of my car John, if it's of use. Hasn't been used competitively though.

[John]

You have a Hawk though, I think, Bob?
I'm not looking for details of Hawk cars, rather, I was looking for some indication as to whether Hawk have made any representation to the MSA, or if owners have.
If Hawk do not want or feel the need to do so, then I am prepared to make representation to the MSA on behalf of all Stratos Replica owners if they so wish.
I may be involved with Napiersport and have a personal preference for the Corse, but I am not so partisan that I could not represent Hawk/Transformer owners too.
It's just that I don't want to tread on anybodies toes.
Let me know what you think guy's.

[Bob]

I do have a Hawk John, I was just assuming that it was a "Strato's Replica" issue as the Allora bore more of a Hawk than a Corse type chassis. I would have thought is was beneficial to everybody to have their cars represented - the more cars the stronger the case I would have thought. Couldn't comment on the Hawk representation to the MSA - no idea!.

[Marmott]

Good afternoon John
please ensure my car is in your list , I certainly would like to compete beyond 2009, this option was lost in France for the same reasons the MSA is trying to impose, however I believe its mainly aimed at the motorcycle engined specials,

Neverthe less its down to us to put forward our case
the case being that the Stratos cars competeing do so " without altering the body chassis" from the manufacturers spec, and include a passenger vehicle engine

Allora, Hawk,Transformer,Corse, Corse i , Napier all meet this spec, but it needs the MSA recognition and approval if we are to be allowed beyond 2009.

Any time or help you need I will be plesed to assist , please do not hesitate to ask, our approach to the MSA must be carried out in a fully documented manner if we are to succeed.
I was about to do this as an individual, I am sure a more detailed approach as you suggest will be more succesful, and carry more weight.
Gary Lomas

[chris.richard]

I am not aware of anything happening on the Hawk front. I have sent a short email to Ian Davies at the MSA, but although desparate for the Hawk to be useable in competition long term, I currently have no spare time for car related activities as I have just unexpectedly bought a new house (These things take you by surprise sometimes!) and am full on trying to sell & move.

[John]

Gary,
I do indeed have your car and the old one, on my list.
Can you email me your chassis number, MSA logbook number(?) and registration number, oh, and perhaps the engine number and a digital image of the car.
If you have the same details for the old car it will save me having to contact Andy G.
John

[John]

Chris,
thanks for your comment.
Good luck with the move. Surely you will not have trouble selling, that's a lovely spot you are in?
Any more Hawk information out there?
I want to keep this at the top for a day or two.

[Sando]

I may be involved with Napiersport and have a personal preference for the Corse, but I am not so partisan that I could not represent Hawk/Transformer owners too.


Good for you John.

I've not heard of any movement on Hawk's part.
As this affects Rallying, I've not needed to do anything personally, as I only intend to do Sprints where we are in a kit car class and not in need of a logbook. But if you need any support from me you have it.

My thoughts originally were that if the Kit manufacturers could prove that they were small volume manufacturers then you stood a good chance of getting the car through, ie Like Darrian, I believe they have managed to be recognised so long as they use the right engines.

cheers
Rob

[Martin K]

As this affects Rallying, I've not needed to do anything personally, as I only intend to do Sprints where we are in a kit car class and not in need of a logbook.

Sorry to butt in, but this raises a couple of issues.

1) Why is the MSA quite happy to have kit car classes in racing, hillclimbing and sprinting, but seem determined to exclude them from rallying? Surely there should be some consistency?

and

2) It was muted some years ago that MSA Log Books will become a requirement of all MSA recognised sports eventually - not just for rally cars. I am sure it is only a matter of time before this becomes a reality. Therefore, my suggestion is that whatever type of competitive motorsport owners have an interest in now, all owners of a Lancia Stratos replica - and indeed owners of any 'kit car' they enjoy competing in - should stick together in campaigning for the right for these vehicles to be allowed to compete now and long in to the future.

[John]

Rob.
thanks for that.
I have had a few contacts today that suggest that Hawk owners would like to be included in this.
If I do so then I will fully credit each manufacturer against each car. Thats fair enough is it not?
I am fully aware that the Hawk/Transformer has out sold the Allora/Corse over the years. What I don't want to be accused of is trying to get approval for the Corse on the back of Hawk sales. I would prefer for there to be seperate applications to the MSA, but if what I'm being told is true, ie. no representation is being made by Hawk, then as a fellow stratos enthusiast I would welcome inclusion of all owners cars into a joint representation to the MSA.
Martin,
thats two good points you have made.

[chris.richard]

I've emailed Gerry to see what his position is. Has anybody else had contact with him about this? Guy?

[guy mayers]

Chris, just back from holiday so this is the first I've seen about this. Whilst it doesn't affect me directly I am not aware of anything from Gerry about it either. If you've contacted him and pointed this thread in his direction I'm sure that he'll have no problem with Forum Members approaching the MSA on his and Lionels behalf.
Guy

[chris.richard]

Just got this reply from the MSA:
The regulations being consulted on are for new cars log booked from 1/1/2009. Existing cars will be ok until 1/1/2010. Once the new K37 is finalised there will be debate and consultation for the existing cars and how they will need to comply from 2010.



I appreciate your logic regarding the standard 24v versus the tuned 12v argument, but a tuned 24v is quicker still.



You will also note that specific provision has been made for low volume Specialist Production Cars. How many cars Hawk have made during the production of the HF2000 I do not know and this needs to be established.

[Shaun II]

Any news back from Gerry? I should have 5 mins to call him on Monday, I think it would be a real shame if a car that has taken almost 18 years and three owners to build couldn't do at least one rally.

Next week should see some big steps forward in my build, I have all the documents to try the pre 98 registration route(which DVLA assure me is fine) and the windscreen is being bent!

[chris.richard]

I've heard nothing back from Gerry.

[Shaun II]

I have spoken with Gerry and he has yet to do anything on this but he is more than prepared to do something - be it reply to a letter or provide proof of the 400+ cars (kits)sold.

I have no idea what the MSA require, I have no idea what I(we) need to get from Gerry and I'm sure there are others better placed than I.

I think a club approach for Hawk and Napier would be the way forward.

[JohnnyA110]

Hi John

Do you have the details of my car ??

best regards

John H


I think I'm up to 49 cars now and still have not spoken to Steve Greenwood or Hugh to check with them for any I don't know about.
No input from any Hawk/Transformer owners on this?
Or are you keeping something close to your chests?

[John]

John,
its certainly on my list but I could do with more details. I'll be contacting everyone this weel about this subject.

[Shaun II]

As the end of April deadline approaches is there any news on this K37/replica situation and were the corse varients and/or hawks acepted by the MSA?

[SUSIT]

Dont think there will be any decisions for a few months yet Shaun

[Shaun II]

Right, lets get this back to the top.

A Darrian appears to be a low volume Specialist Production Car. I believe Transformer/Hawk and Allora/Corse are too. John, do you know exactly what the MSA required for the corse to be accepted?

Finally, who would be looking to log book a car in the next three years, who thinks these types of cars should be given a chance to compete and who thinks I should shut up, sell up and purchase a Darrian?

I am looking to log book my car next year.

[catswhiskers]

Nice to see this back at the top again even if it's only to remind folks that it hasn't gone away.
I don't know how far John got with his research on the cars but I'm sure he will respond.

I think a club approach for Hawk and Napier would be the way forward.

Good idea in principle but I have my doubts that it could happen this way.
I may be proved wrong but I suspect that any approach to the MSA will have to be made by a technical representative of the manufacturer in question. Not only to provide structural tests / calculations etc. which will obviously be very different for the two types of car due to the different chassis designs.
Secondly, I would imagine if an approach were made by the club, then, effectively, the club is leaving itself open for all kinds if littigation problems, should anything go badly wrong. Yes we could insure against it but this would have a significant effect on the annual subscriptions which could then deplete the membership etc.etc. :(
Finally, whoever tries to take this forward will need to have a lot of time and patience to spare. The legislation, interpretations of rules, re defining things isn't going to be a five minute job and as such, this is another reason why I think it has go back to the manufacturers.
I've spent the last three months trying to plan a Historic rally campaign for next year and I'm nowhere near sorted yet. That's with regulations that already exist! :eek:
I dread to think what lies ahead regarding changing or re-writing regulations but I wish everyone the best of luck in their efforts.
Sorry if this sound negative, it isn't intended that way.
I just think any work on this subject has to be focused in the right direction, obviously, with all our support and help where possible. :)


Mick

[Chris J]

It would be interesting to get a view from Tim Duffee?

http://www.darrian.co.uk/

I'm guessing the MSA won't let you use the older Davrian any longer for rallying? The same will go for Clans, Mini Marcos, Corrie Cultra etc.?

[Chris J]

It doesn't seem right somehow, because I see cars like the Clan and Magenta as one slice of historic rallying?

[Marmott]

THE MSA HAVE NOW FINALISED THE NEW RULES REGARDING CAR ELIGIBILITY(FOR RALLIES).
Full details are in the new MSA magazine, many paras of reading
There is light for those hoping to RAC log book a car new, the main point will be the evidence from the manufacturer of 20 cars being built in a 1 year period, as there were only 15 or so Alloras that might be a problem as the chassis is so differant from Litton/Corse/Hawk
Existing log books valid till 2012 will need renewing then.
interestingly the weight of a 3000cc car is not difficult to achieve(the weights will be checked in future Im told)
Maximum tyre widths remain the same, and safety is unchanged, not sure about FIA suits on rallies from 2008 though
Engines to be production or competition based(to elliminate motor bike engines)
its heavy reading but worth understanding, as it would be good to get letters from each of the original manufacturers, available to prospective competitors, and sent to the MSA in an organised way.

[chris.richard]

Rule change K 37.3.1i

b) Naturally aspirated with more than 2 valves per cylinder - 3000 cc

c) Naturally aspirated with maximum of 2 valves per cylinder - 3500 cc

looks like they've upped the capacity, so 2959 24v is OK :)

[guy mayers]

Been in touch with Gerry regarding production numbers and he has sent me the following reply that he wanted published on the website (he doesn't think that the club forum is a place manufacturers should be posting...) as it may be of help to those Hawk members trying to logbook cars.
I can confirm that Shauns car is number 23 and that mine is 48 and that I took delivery in June of 1988 - os it really nearly 20 years ago...
Guy


Dear Guy, please post this on the Forum, I would be grateful for anyone assisting with this. Around the period 1988/89 we actually produced 40 cars in one year.
I have details here of chassis number SPY0230687 Which was car number 23 which was produced in June 1987,now owned by Mr Shaun O'Neill and Guys Mayers car, which is, I believe SPY0480588 which is car number 48 produced in May 1988 This alone shows that there were 25 cars made in an eleven month period. I am prepared to state under oath, that in excess of 20 cars were produced in a period of twelve months, or any one year.
Our total production is now around 500 cars.
Regards Gerry Hawkrige.

Colin Artus may have the original written records. I am also sure Gordon Cruickshank, Motor Sport Magazine would confirm my staements.

[chris.richard]

So now we've got the info from Hawk, what needs to be done to register the HF2000/3000 as a small volume production car?

[rutthenut]

Rule change K 37.3.1i

b) Naturally aspirated with more than 2 valves per cylinder - 3000 cc

c) Naturally aspirated with maximum of 2 valves per cylinder - 3500 cc

looks like they've upped the capacity, so 2959 24v is OK :)

I've not got a comp license this year, so don't have anything from MSA to read up on, but this sounds quite promising.

Think I might look at getting a rally log book for my car then.

Trying to think what else I will need to do - handheld plus plumbed-in extinguisher, electric cutouts and door-bars already present. Four/Five point harnesses fitted (FIA legal).

I know I would want to fit sump guard and additional underfloor strengthening/protection. Also got a basic helmet intercom already. How many safety items now have age-related specs? I believe crash helmets do. What about seats and harnesses? And drivers ;-)

What are the minimum weights for 24v 3000c cars?

Anyone care to comment on current rally car safety requirements - maybe in another thread?

Cheers

[rutthenut]

From http://www.msauk.org/site/wbs/news/ViewNews.asp?NewsOwner=msa&NewsId=4049&BackUrl=NewsOwner%3Dmsa%26chapter%3D262&chapter=262&category=0

The new regulations will come into effect for all new cars on 1st January 2009, while all current cars will remain eligible to compete until at least 1st January 2012.

SUMMARY OF THE NEW REGULATIONS

New vehicles

All cars submitted for a new Competition Car Log Book after 1st January 2009 must comply fully with the revised requirements. There are two Categories as follows:-

Category 1
Homologated cars, Series Production Cars (with limited modifications permitted) and Specialist Rally Cars (these being low volume, manufacturer production cars).

Cars must retain the configuration as supplied by the manufacturer. Engines may be changed (but may not exceed 25% increase in capacity of the model or the specified capacity limit in MSA Regulations) and must remain in the original manufacturer`s location.

Drive configuration must remain as manufactured, other than 4WD cars which may be converted to 2WD without structural alteration. Specialist Rally Cars must retain their original manufacturer`s drive configuration.

Category 2
Category 2 cars are those which will not comply with Category 1, but are acceptable to the MSA by incorporating only those modifications detailed in the revised K37.

• The original manufacturer`s chassis/bodywork/unitary construction must be retained as space frame chassis will not be permitted.
• Front wheel drive cars may be converted to rear wheel drive or 4WD subject to modifications made rearwards of the bulkhead being limited to FIA prescribed modifications. These are detailed within Art 279, 3.2.2 and shown in Appendix J, Drawings 279-1 and 279-2 of the FIA Yellow Book.
(These permitted modifications are currently utilised in the construction of FIA Super 2000 stage rally cars and FIA Rallycross cars.)
• Material added in the conversion must be ferrous and must be welded to the original chassis/bodywork/unitary construction of the car.
• The car doors and windscreen must remain in the manufacturer`s original material.

Engines
Any engine detailed below, may be fitted to a Category 1 car, (remembering the 25% capacity increase limitation,) and to a Category 2 car. These are:

• Any Series Production Engine with a maximum of six cylinders, for which the following capacity limits apply:
o Petrol, forced induction, with a maximum capacity 2000cc and a 34 mm restrictor.
o Petrol, forced induction with a maximum capacity of 2500cc and a 32mm restrictor.
o Forced induction diesel engine with a maximum capacity of 2500cc and a 37mm restrictor.
o Naturally aspirated petrol engine with more than 2 valves per cylinder and 3000cc maximum capacity.
o Naturally aspirated petrol engine with 2 valves per cylinder and 3500cc maximum capacity.

• Any Specialist Competition Engine meeting the following criteria:
o Naturally aspirated, no more than four cylinders, no more than four valves per cylinder, maximum capacity of 2500cc.

The following details apply to all Category 1 & 2 cars:-

• Transmission systems will be free, other than that active front and rear differentials are not acceptable, unless originally homologated for that model of car. On 4WD cars, centre diffs may remain active. Entirely mechanical systems are permitted. Further, active suspension systems will not be permitted (these are in line with FIA requirements).

• Wheel and tyre sizes have been brought into line with FIA requirements. These are 7” for up to 1150cc, 8” to 1600cc and 9” for over 1600cc. These measurements are at the widest point, above hub level, of the wheel/tyre assembly at normal operating pressure.

• Car weight limits are now defined. Homologated cars must conform at all times to the minimum weights stated in their homologation papers. Non-homologated cars weights are now defined in line with FIA requirements, other than for 2WD Specialist Rally Cars which will use current MSA weights.

• Safety requirements include the location of internal electrical isolating switches, including fire extinguisher activating switches, being so positioned that both crew members may be able to operate them when normally seated with belts fastened.

• FIA homologated seats must be fitted and correctly installed, with appropriate FIA specification seat mountings.


Existing vehicles

All cars with a current MSA Competition Car Log Book may continue in competition in their current specification until the end of 2011 subject, of course, to complying with any subsequent regulation changes in the meantime.

Current Category 1 and most Category 2 cars will be able to continue competing after 1 January 2012, with the addition of certain features which are mainly safety-related.

Current Category 3 cars will have to be re-inspected and issued with a new Competition Car Log Book by the MSA, subject to them complying fully with the new technical specifications detailed in K37.

Additional features required for existing cars, to enable them to compete after 1 January 2012, are as follows:

a) If side windows are of toughened glass, they must be coated on the inside with a clear transparent safety film.
b) Mud flaps behind all four wheels extending 4mm each side of the tyre tread and a maximum of 8mm above the ground are mandatory.
c) Suitable towing eye fitments front and rear must be in place (these are to be clearly defined by the MSA Technical Advisory Panel in the near future).
d) Have internal electrical isolating switches, including fire extinguisher activating switches, so positioned that both crew members may be able to operate them when normally seated with belts fastened.
e) Have FIA homologated seats correctly fitted, with FIA specification seat mountings.

Clearly all of these requirements may be introduced gradually over the next few years. However, they must all be in place by the 1st January 2012, to enable current cars to continue to be eligible to compete on stage rallies.

FURTHER CLARIFICATION

We asked John Richardson, Chairman of the MSA Rallies Committee, a selection of the most frequently asked questions about K37. Here is what he had to say:-

How many of the current cars do you think will be excluded permanently from stage rallying?
Hopefully, many of the current Cat 3 cars will be able to be modified to comply with the new regulations, but no doubt a few will be unable to continue.

What about current club stage cars (under category 1) fitted with a non-original engine of a capacity that would be over the permitted increase under the new regulations?
Existing cars will be able to continue competing, subject to satisfying the new safety regulations.

Will people be able to build ‘special` cars to adhere to these regulations?
Absolutely! By complying with the new Cat 2 structural requirements and using an engine as defined, a very competitive car could be constructed.

Will Darrians still be legal?
Yes, though those currently with a motor-cycle engine would need to re-engine with a Series Production or Specialist Competition engine to comply.

What about Metro 6R4s?
Perfectly acceptable to continue, as they are now.

Why are you making the cars heavier – surely that just means bigger accidents?
No, home produced, ultra light cars are not as safe in accidents. Original manufacturer production car chassis/bodywork/unit construction shells are much stronger and consequently, safer.

Are you banning all rear wheel drive conversions on cars like the G3, Toyota Starlet, some MK2 Escorts, etc?
Certainly not! Existing cars may continue after 2011 with the additions of the safety features detailed in the revised regulations. The new Category 2 positively provides a framework within which a vehicle can be converted to RWD.

What about any motorcycle-engined vehicles?
Motorcycle engines are not Series Production Car Engines, so are not permitted. Cars so equipped may substitute a Series Production engine or a Specialist Competition engine (as defined) to permit them to continue.

Will the Millington Diamond engine be outlawed under the new regs because it is not a production engine?
No. Millington, as well as other makes, comply as Specialist Competition engines.

What happens to WRC cars?
They may continue by complying with their homologated specification.

Are active differentials to be allowed?
Active front and rear diffs are not allowed, unless originally homologated for that model of car, though on 4WD cars, centre diffs may remain active.

Are all fibreglass arches or a body kit of any type outlawed?
No. For Category 1 cars, certain items e.g. bonnets, wheel arch extensions, bumpers and boot lids that are not part of a unitary construction may be of alternative materials. For Category 2 cars, the body work must be original. Any homologated bodywork may be included, but copies of homologated bodywork/aerodynamic devices are not permitted.


Release MSA07-064: 31 October 2007


(Please note the full regulations can be found in the accompanying PDF)

[Chris J]

It's twelve years since I had a rally competition licence, so I hadn't really noticed what a big deal this K37 ruling is. I see there's a good old discussion about this on the British Rally Forum?

[Shaun II]

Any progress on this, I really can't see me getting the time to log book my car before the end of the year and that my well complicate things competition wise?

I hadn't required a comp license until early last year, really straight forward to obtain and what fun being back out on the stages - just need to finish the car.......