Allora For Motorsport

[SUSIT]

I am looking at how to mount the eye bolts for a set of six point harness. The shoulder mounts are giving me some concern. The rear bulkhead on my allora appears to be double skin thin steel with about a two inch cavity. Too great for the length of an normal eye bolt but more important not nearly strong enough to take the sort of loads that may be involved in an accident.
Dave how is your allora constructed in this area and how have you mounted your belts?



Stephen Struthers

[Stratos]

My belts are 4 point, not 6 point, but I had the same problem to resolve for the rear mounts.

In the chassis rail which goes across the car, below the rear window, there are threaded holes ready for the mounting points.

I think you will find that you have 2 bulkhead panels. One inside the car, and one in the engine bay. I drilled out all the pop-rivets on my bulkhead inside the car and removed it, and this enabled me to locate the holes for the belts. I then made holes in the bulkhead panel at the appropriate places, and refitted the bulkhead.

Only problem I have found is that I think that they were designed before seats with belt holes were commonplace, so the positioning is not perfect, and the belts don't lay perfectly straight.

I'll try and take a picture later today and post it here for you.



I also took the opportunity, while the inner bulkhead was removed to completely fill the gap between the bulkheads with fireproof foam. The cuts down noise from the engine bay, but more importantly, gives the passenger cormpartment so protection in the event of a fire. There's not much distance between those petrol tanks and the passengers (in a Hawk, Litton, or Allora!).

If you decide to fill with foam, be careful what you buy. Many of the "insulation foam" products that you can buy at B&Q, etc, are actually FLAMMABLE not INFLAMMABLE, so would make a fire situation worse not better. My foam will resist up to 1000c for up to 4 hours, but it took a lot of tracking down to find it.

[colin artus]

Inflammable and flammable both mean 'will burn'; inflammable means especially so. What you need is non-flammable.
Its not the sort of thing you want to get wrong!

Colin

[David May]

If the foam is in a sealed chamber (between two outer panels) its not going to get any oxygen so at worst it's going to melt rather than burst into flames?
Is there a Blue Book rule on bulkheads?

Dave May

[SUSIT]

Thanks guys.
David a picture would be a great help. If i can avoid removing the bullkhead completely i can save a bit of time. The idea of the foam is a good one that i will follow up, Dave and Colin i take both your points on board. Blue book i think states bulkhead must be impervious to liquids and vapour. Dont think it states what material should be used.
David am i correct in saying your plumbed in fire extinguisher is where a spare wheel would sit. If so do marshals at stage starts ask too check it is armed?



Stephen Struthers

[Stratos]

Originally posted by colin artus
Inflammable and flammable both mean 'will burn'; inflammable means especially so. What you need is non-flammable.
Its not the sort of thing you want to get wrong!

Colin

Colin,

Your right in your definition, but, regardless, my foam is very resistant to heat and flame.

[Stratos]

Originally posted by SUSIT
Thanks guys.
David a picture would be a great help. If i can avoid removing the bullkhead completely i can save a bit of time.

I will send the pictures shortly, but I don't think that you would be able to open the holes purely based on these photos. I had to remove the bulkhead to find their positions.



Originally posted by SUSIT
Blue book i think states bulkhead must be impervious to liquids and vapour. Dont think it states what material should be used.


Correct.


Originally posted by SUSIT
David am i correct in saying your plumbed in fire extinguisher is where a spare wheel would sit. If so do marshals at stage starts ask too check it is armed?



Yes, at least it was until yesterday. I am in the process of moving a few things around, so following coments apply to before yesterday afternoon.

The extinguisher body is mounted on top of a plate weled onto the crossmember about 8inches in front of the rack, which I presume is where you mean by "Spare wheel position", as I don't have a spare wheel.

Scrutineer often stands at stage start, and wants to check if it's armed. They often do this on the first stage of the rally. If I had a mechanical fire extinguisher, they would have to lift the front body to check that the retaining pin was removed, and that the extinguisher was correctly armed. I have an electric extinguisher, so they just need to check the position of the switch in the passenger compartment.

[Stratos]

Seatbelt mounting pictures

[Stratos]

Another Seatbelt Mounting Picture

[Stratos]

Yet Another seatbelt Mounting

[SUSIT]

Seatbelt mount.

Thanks for the pics David. A bit of a suprise, i had thought they would be mounted on the cross beam that the window sits on! They look a lot lower than that. Anyway i have a couple of days of now so out with the seats and find the drill for those rivets.


Stephen Struthers

[lynden]

Hi, Ihave carried out a lot of work with David on his Allora.
Please consider welding threaded tubes on to the rear chassis rail at approx head height, this will give you safe secure points , best not to persue "bolting through".
For the floor mountings , nos 5 and 6, this is again a case of adding a welded in strengthening rib/plate.
You should also consider adding triangulation to the cage
as the Allora needs some help.
Are you planning Tarmac only events, Also consider your sumpguard as a protection but also a means to add strength.
Door bars , welded in will add strength, they need not be to high and should suit your size to get in out in an emergency!!!!
Are you going V6 , I can advise on engine mounts without spending lots fo both Corse and Transformer /Hawk and Allora
Best of luck with yopur competition , I have had alot of pleasure using mine, you cancall me on 07970 479187 if you need to talk
cheers
Gary

[SUSIT]

Sound thoughts Gary. Once I remove the inner skin i will have a think. The floor seems to be made os substancial steel? Do you think i need a large plate added under it to spread the load?
It looks like I will Need to remove a fair amount of the interior to add door bars etc. I was hoping to avoid that but if needs must. Tarmac not my first love I am a forrest man myself but not sure i can afford/justify the amount of money involved these days. My local event the Snowman Rally is £333 for 45 miles cheeper than some but not exactly cheep. Another local event is the Milltown stages. Large old airfeild, 6-10 mile stages, Total 98 stages miles for around £200! Where would you put your money? Then there is always The Tour of Mull. A real rally and only a three hour drive/ferry away. Anybody fancy a team of Stratos, Need to be 2004 for me as booked for spain this year. ( Had to promise my wife something when i bought the Allora ) I will give you a phone tomorrow when i have stripped the interior out

Stephen Struthers

[chris.richard]

Originally posted by SUSIT
Then there is always The Tour of Mull. A real rally and only a three hour drive/ferry away. Anybody fancy a team of Stratos,

Count me in! I've done the Tour a couple of times, and it's an ambition to do it in the Stratos. 2004 too early for me though. My local event is the Jim Clark -I'd like to do it as a course car initially.

[chris.richard]

Originally posted by Stratos


The extinguisher body is mounted on top of a plate weled onto the crossmember about 8inches in front of the rack, which I presume is where you mean by "Spare wheel position", as I don't have a spare wheel.



I'd like to carry a spare. I was eyeing up the space behind the navigator's seat (I've a vertical bulkhead), or in front of the navigator's footrest on the front bulkhead. Or else, I know the weight distribution would be all wrong, but does anybody use the bootspace for anything? Some weight would be saved by removing glassfibre, and with decent heat insulation from the exhaust something could go there. Any comments?

[ANDYG]

Totally agree Chris,
I have spent many a good night up in Duns during the Jim Clark, most of it watching Tony Mason getting stoned!. I usually come up and marshal as part of a team from the West Midlands CSMA Marshalling Team BUT driving one of the course cars ( just in front of Louise of course) especially in a Stratos would be fun, a pair even more so.:D

[SUSIT]

I have also thought of placing the etxinguisher in the space behind the seat. In my case the drivers seat as being a short arse of 5 feet 4 and a bit inches theres a bit of space behind me.
You could be very selective in your choice of navigator!
On a more serious note, I would think very carfully about putting it in the boot. If you have a big accident you could wipe out that area of the car as there is little strength compared with the metal work in the middle of the car. The extinguisher is no use to you if its ripped out the car.
If you mount it in the front with a spare make sure the spare cant move. In my Rover days i did the 1988 Audi National. Just before the start we managed to hole the petrol tank. We had a constant drip no to the exhust pipe. Then to add insult to injury on the road section after stage 1 a spare wheel came free, hit the plumped in extinguisher setting it off. I can confirm breathing halon is not as good as the air it takes the place of. Not so sure about the latest chemicals. We completed the event with our leak- diverted away from the heat - but no fire system. Not clever i know but when you had travelled as far as i had and paid out large sums of money the car would have to have been undrivable not to continue. Dont ask me the result. I did however beat a J MacRae. Moral of the story be very carful where and how you mount the extinguisher and consider the things around it as well.
Sorry to be so long winded.

Stephen Struthers

[Stratos]

I have often wondered if any of the Fiat/Lancia/Alfa range have a space-saver wheel. It would do to get you out of a stage and hopefully to your service crew.



Regarding positioning of Fire Extinguisher.
You really need it in a position where it can't get damaged, or disconnected, in an accident, as that is the time when you are most likely to need it.


I am just in the process of repositioning my petrol tank. I'm having a new one constructed and mounting it at the front where my extinguisher was previously located.

I did have two of them mounted in wings, as per standard Stratos, Allora, and Hawk. When we had the accident on the last rally, the passenger side one ruptured in the impact. Fortunately, we ended up parked with the backend hanging over a ditch, and the engine and exhaust were up in the air. The petrol from the tank drained away down into the ditch. Had we ended up on a tarmac section, the exhaust would have been on the ground, and all the petrol would have been swilling around it - Doesn't bear thinking about!

Certainly, since that accident, I've become more safety-concious, and the car is currently being modified with safety in mind.

I've always had the attitude "It won't happen to me", although I suppose some who've seen my driving style, would probably say "Oh yes it will":rolleyes:

[SUSIT]

Started on the bulkhead.
A before shot.
Stephen Struthers

[SUSIT]

An after shot. Spot the next problem. Foam, lots of it!
Took a bit out and did a burn test. Hard to tell if its flamable or not. In a flame it sort of melted, but no flame from the foam. Cant see any threaded tube. I will make my own mounts.

[SUSIT]

The left overs. Guess i will be making a new bulkhead. Just as well really as it had several large holes in it for some reason!
I am only grateful for my air powered sheet metal cutters or i would have taken many hours to get this far.

Stephen Struthers

[rutthenut]

Originally posted by Stratos
I have often wondered if any of the Fiat/Lancia/Alfa range have a space-saver wheel.

When I first built my Hawk, I used a space-saver spare wheel from a Fiat Tipo or Tempra - I can't quite remember which. The size was compatible with the 15-inch rims fitted to the car (and had the same pcd, naturally). I seem to recall that it would only fit around the suspension points at the front of the car, so could need some juggling of front and rear wheels if the rear needed to be replaced in a get-home fashion.

When I put larger brakes onto the car to take up circuit racing, the wheel would no longer fit over the brakes so I left it out - subsequently selling it to another Stratos Replica owner.

An obvious potential choice of space-saver would be from an 8v or 16v Integrale (not the Evo though, as that has a five-stud pcd). There must be a few of these available from the many broken Grellies around the country...

Still not sure if it would fit around the suspension and brakes, which will also be different between Allora, Corse and Hawk.

[mogul_x]

Originally posted by Stratos
I have often wondered if any of the Fiat/Lancia/Alfa range have a space-saver wheel.

The 164S that I bought came with a spacesaver spare, and I held onto that thinking I might use it on my car when it is completed. Not that this is any help to owners of 4-stud cars, but if you're using Gerry's Alfa brake kit on a Hawk, it'll definitely clear 164 brakes.

I suppose it would also work with any aftermarket brake kits intended for use on the 164, as long as they are compatible with the stock wheels.

[Stratos]

None of the 164s that I have had in the UK have come with a space-saver tyre, so maybe it wasn't an option in the UK.

[mogul_x]

David,

It's possible that the space-saver spare is only available on US cars. I hadn't thought of that. On our side of the pond, full size spares are hard to find on anything but trucks, and have been for years. The few new cars I've seen with proper spare tires usually don't offer them as standard equipment - they are a rare option that takes away a lot of trunk space.

None of the cars I've owned has ever had a full sized spare tire from the factory, even my '73 Chevy Nova. My father's '72 Chevy Monte Carlo has one, since it's got trunk space to spare. You could almost carry a Lancia Montecarlo in lieu of a spare wheel....;)

I guess I could keep an eye out for 164 space-savers, if anyone's interested.

Cheers,

[Mel Lewis]

Yes I have a Tipo space saver lined up for my car, But then I thought where would I carry a 10 in flat tyre?.

I think a tin of instant puncture repair (get me to the nearest garage) would be the best space saver.

[David May]

I managed to squeeze a space-saver with a 125/70D15 tyre diagonally under the front of my Corse I, but luckily have never had to use it!

Dave May

[chris.richard]

But where do you put the full size punctured wheel after putting the space saver on? Or does it just get left at the roadside?:eek:

[David May]

My 205/45x16 road wheels will actually fit on the passengers seat, suitably wrapped in a tailored cloth cover! Its a bit cluttered in there but its enough. When I need to carry a whole set of wheels, I simply bolt on my roof-rack (into threaded posts onto the roll-cage through the roof) and off we go to Sweden with 4 studded tyres on top.

Dave May

[mogul_x]

Originally posted by Mel Lewis
I think a tin of instant puncture repair (get me to the nearest garage) would be the best space saver.

That works OK as long as the puncture is minor. If you manage to bend a rim, or cut a sidewall, you're stuck until a wrecker arrives.

And yes, I'm speaking from experience on that last bit....:rolleyes:

As for toting a full sized wheel, will a front wheel fit back under the nose? I have a 164 wheel (road wheel, not spacesaver)sitting in my unfinished car at the moment, and it looks a little tight. Will a 10" or 12" wide rim fit into the boot? I don't expect that you'd be able to shut the lid, but at least you wouldn't have to leave it by the side of the road.

Assuming, of course, that the passenger seat is already occupied, and the boot is not. :D