Replica building questions

[Garf]

How do all

I have been lurking for a while and thought I'd register and say hi with a few questions for people that have built there own Corse or HF3000 replicas/kits/whatever you want to call them... and preferably built both ;)

Now it's not going to be "Please which one should I get" as that has been covered quiet a lot in previous threads.

My questions really relate to the engines and building of the Corse, as I seem to be coming down on that side as far as the coin flip goes but it seems to fit for both kits anyhow.

I am fairly compedent with a set of spanners, sockets, pliers, wires, swearing and cursing and pretty much all thing mechanical and I am just trying to get a feel for how many problems people faced and level of skill required to build a Stratos over and above say a 7?

Does the cars origninal rallying specific design help in the build process or is the packaging awkward due to redesigns and the like?

Is there anything specifically that is a pain to do or requires tools that are unlikely to be lying around my tool collection?

Also I see that donors list seem to always say 12v V6 Alfa engines and gear box from a 164. Is there reason for going 12v over 24v and would another Alfa act as a suitable donor?


Cheers in advance
Garf

[chris.richard]

The Stratos replicas are a much more major proposition than a se7en - there is no kit of bits, but a lot of sourcing, fabricating and fettling to get things to fit. Bodywork in particular is a completely different kettle of bananas. I'm not trying to put you off, but don't expect it to be a couple of months' winter project - think in terms of several years' work. (Unless your Catswhiskers :) ) Staying power is as important as technical abilities!

If your thinking of rallying it, use the 12v engine. For other use, the 24v has more power, but is heavier with a higher centre of gravity. Other Alfa sources of the same engines/gearbox will also work, though some might need the mountings altered.

[chris.richard]

There's always the Ferrari engined Hawk on ebay at the moment :cool: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=010&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=200049124274&rd=1&rd=1

[chris.richard]

It's been relisted - looks a good price to me for one with a F* engine, although it'll need to go through an SVA.
ebay relist (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/LANCIA-STRATOS-FERRARI-ENGINED-REPLICA_W0QQitemZ200052519535QQihZ010QQcategoryZ18 186QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

[Garf]

hmmmm Define your definition of the word "fabricating"?

What needs fabricating? That's the sort of thing that would make me worry if I am honest. Fabricating in my world is welding/brasing etc etc. If there is a lot of that then either I am going to have to practice a lot more (my welding ability is lacking) or get my mates round with the promise of beer.

The list of parts from the donor seems a rather short list compared to other types of kit cars I have seen.

LOL I'd love to take that Hawk on... but I am keen on the whole do it yourself bit too and that seems a little like cheating. Though it does look fabulous. Also... not keen on the engine choice for my needs. Tempting though it is.

[catswhiskers]

Hi Garreth,
Like Chris says, dont go into it thinking its just a couple of months work. However, in my case, I didnt spend months or years sourcing parts. I bought an Alfa 164 and used the engine, box, brake calipers and driveshafts/hubs. Virtually everything else I purchased new either from parts suppliers or, mainly from the kit supplier Napiersport.
I also set out to have everything in the workshop prior to starting the build. I hate having to stop half way through a job because you dont have the parts. Due to that strategy, careful planning and a lot of help from John at Napiersport, I built and SVA'd my car in a little over 8 months. It is not a 'garage queen' or a 'showroom' car. It's built with having fun in mind. If it picks up the odd scratch here & there, I'm not too upset. Driving the car makes up for that. Fabrication wise, I had very little to do. Bodywork, as Chris says, is without a doubt, the biggest task. You can see a video diary of my kit build if you go to www.superstratos.com and click on the picture of my car. (Olio Fiat)
That should give you a basic idea what you will face. Whatever, you decide, do it and good luck.
Mick

[Marmott]

hi Garf
Ive built a couple of Corse
if you wish 10 mins on the phone Ill happilly go through the build with you
Gary
01460 61916

[mogul_x]

"Fabricating" might consist of making the odd bracket - assume you will need access to a welder, and possibly a machine shop. My Hawk has required several small pieces (suspension spacers and such) that needed to be turned on a lathe, and there are a couple of areas where I can envision using a milling machine to save some labor. In general, a drill and a grinding wheel will get most of the fettling sorted.

Most of the major fabricating takes place when converting a car from one engine to another, or from Right to Left hand drive. If you order a kit suited to the configuration you want, you shouldn't have to do as much welding or machining.

As for donor parts, the list is fairly comprehensive - you just don't get all the parts from one donor. Corse's are a little better than a Hawk in that regard, but you still need to get parts out of 3 or more cars, depending on how faithful to the appearance of the original you want to be.

[Garf]

Hi all

Thanks for the responses.

Nothing has been said that is going to put me off this project. When the word fabricating was used I didn't think of things like brackets. I was thinking mounting points on chassis and the like :rolleyes:

Timescales aren't really an issue for me, and I'll get what I need when I need it sort of approach, similar to yours Mick but on a JIT basis. I don't mind waiting a week or so for things... that will probably change if it's a really minor part needed for completion.

Cheers for the offer of a phone call Gary... I'm sure I'll take you up on that sometime soon. ( a couple of Corses? Are you greedy and have more than one?;) )

Garf

[Patriq Backlund]

[QUOTE=catswhiskers]Hi Garreth,
Like Chris says, dont go into it thinking its just a couple of months work. However, in my case, I didnt spend months or years sourcing parts. I bought an Alfa 164 and used the engine, box, brake calipers and driveshafts/hubs.

Did you use the 164 driveshafts and hubs ? I thought they didn't fit - and that one used Beta driveshafts ? Same with the hubs, did you use them from a 164 ?

I also set out to have everything in the workshop prior to starting the build. I hate having to stop half way through a job because you dont have the parts. Due to that strategy, careful planning and a lot of help from John at Napiersport, I built and SVA'd my car in a little over 8 months.

I'm doing the same thinng. I'm currently collecting parts. I just found a 164 I'm going to take parts from. That's why I'm curious about the driveshafts and hubs.
I'm also not going to order the chassi until I've got all other parts ready, cleaned and prepared to fit. Probably I'll overhaul the engine and gearbox too. I don't want to tear it all out just after installing it, just becaues something was worn out in the engine.

[catswhiskers]

Hi Patriq,

I used the Alfa 164 driveshafts, hubs, brake discs (new obviously)and calipers. A small ammount of modification was necessary to the hubs, mainly to allow them to fit into the alloy uprights.
I should point out that this is a Corse we are talking about, not a Hawk. I'm not aware that the beta hubs were ever on the list of parts for the Corse. In fact the original kit donor parts are based on the Ford Scorpio. I just thought it made sense to use all the Alfa parts possible. I do have a set of drawings and pictures of the required mods if they are of any use to you. :)
However, as I said, if you are building a Hawk, then none of the above will be of any use to you. I have no knowledge of what is possible with that build. :(

Cheers,
Mick :D

[Patriq Backlund]

Hi !

I just realized a couple of minutes ago that there were severeal kits...
And yes, I asumed you built the Hawk.

What made you opt for the Corse ? The webpage for the Hawk was much more informative and convincing.
From looking at the Corse web-pages - the build of the Corse looks much more specialized. And more expensive.
But on the other hand, the possibility to use more parts from the 164 is pracitical. I have a whole car to pick parts from.

Why not use brakes from the 164, instead of the 'Ford' ?

Please send me any images and info from the build. I still haven't decided on which model to build.

[catswhiskers]

Patrick,

I think it's fair to say that the decision to build either a Corse of a Hawk is just one of personal preference. I decided on the Corse because of the more modern design of the chassis and 'bespoke' components. i.e. fewer old/obsolete donor components. If you want a 'true replica' chassis though, you should build the Hawk.
Whilst I havent built a Hawk, I've seen many in various stages of build and would say that in my opinion, the Corse is more straightforward to build.
Regarding build cost, I suspect that, ultimately, there is no difference in either kit, the biggest variable is your own build spec. and what you want to use the car for such as rallying, trackday or as a show car.
As regards the Ford brakes, you would need to talk to Napeirsport. They designed the kit around 'standard parts' and they will be able to shed futher light on the decisions taken.
Send me a PM with your e-mail address and I'll send you some pictures of the mods I carried out.

Cheers,
Mick

[chris.richard]

If you want a 'true replica' chassis though, you should build the Hawk.

:eek: :D The only "true replica" chassis are the shadowy ones being manufactured somewhere in europe and sold as originals. The Hawk & Corse are readily identifiable as replicas.
There are numerous threads here about the pros & cons of both the current kits.
I agree with Mick, I don't think the cost is different.
I just didn't like the inside of the Corse (mainly the dash seemed in the wrong place and the chassis member that your lower legs rest on), and to me it didn't look quite "right" with the bodywork open, it was too obviously modern. But personal choice is really what it comes down to. I don't think you'll regret whichever you choose. I've never heard any owner wish they'd built the other! Or anybody to build one of each!
You really should sit in tehm both and have a good look at them before choosing - go to a meeting and chat to people.

[Patriq Backlund]

I'd agree that the Corse looks a bit odd when doors are opened. It becomes a bit to 'plastic' with the modern interior. It could be just about any car with a chassi on top. It could almost be a VW Beetle, or a Alfa 33 with a new covering.

I guess it's because the exterior speeks one language, and the interior another.

Personally, I really like the spars interior of the original Stratos. I also own a Alfa Junior Zagato - and I really like the simple but precise interior and exterior of the car.
But, that's personal preference right there !
;-)
(Maybe it's because I'm coloured by my profession - or my record as a pilot, with simple dials and buttons on a row.....)

Still, the Corse has something to it as well.

[SUSIT]

I'd agree that the Corse looks a bit odd when doors are opened. It becomes a bit to 'plastic' with the modern interior. It could be just about any car with a chassis on top. It could almost be a VW Beetle, or a Alfa 33 with a new covering.

I guess it's because the exterior speeks one language, and the interior another.

Personally, I really like the spars interior of the original Stratos. I also own a Alfa Junior Zagato - and I really like the simple but precise interior and exterior of the car.
But, that's personal preference right there !
;-)
(Maybe it's because I'm coloured by my profession - or my record as a pilot, with simple dials and buttons on a row.....)


Hi There
I may be picking you up wrong but you seem to think the instrument in the corse are not like the original?
I may be wrong but I think both kits can be fitted to look similar to the original its just that some of us choose to do different for lots of reasons. Finding instruments to match the original is one of the challenges, more so if you are a tight fisted Scot like me. :D
Like Chris I suggest you try and get to see each close up and sit in or drive to see what would suit you best.
Good luck
Stephen


Still, the Corse has something to it as well.

[Patriq Backlund]

Hi There
I may be picking you up wrong but you seem to think the instrument in the corse are not like the original?
I may be wrong but I think both kits can be fitted to look similar to the original its just that some of us choose to do different for lots of reasons.

Yes, you are right there. I figured that Hawk provided a panel with the same shape and layout as the original. Where as Corse had a more modern dash/panel provided from the fabric. At least it looks like that in pictures.

I can see why one would choose one over the other. My personel taste would also make one choice over the other. But then again, it also comes down to availability and maybe money.

Speaking of differences between the two.
*One: I've tried to search for previous threads on which model to go for - but none of the words I choose seems to give me any hits.
*Two: The Corse has a more modern suspension. Does it make a difference on track ? Can you notice a difference in for instance lap time with the same driver, and other factors equal - as engine, tyres etc . - given the difference in suspension ?

[SUSIT]

My understanding is both companies can supply the dash panel to the same shape as original but they are not covered you need to arrange that for yourself.

Choice or car re suspension I think will again be more to personal choice as both can be set up to perform well, This does take time and knowledge as both have lots of adjustment available in the suspension.
Speak to both companies would be my advice,
See if they can arrange a test drive and how much back up they can provide. Lastly if going for originality and you want to use Cofin spoke replica wheels then be aware that they do not fit the Corse.
On the same subject they are of limited avilability in that once the original batch made has been sold out then it may be some time before a second batch will be produced. You need to ask Hawk cars about this to get definitive answers.

[chris.richard]

[I]
*One: I've tried to search for previous threads on which model to go for - but none of the words I choose seems to give me any hits.

try this (http://www.stratossupersite.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2981&highlight=corse+choice)
or this (http://www.stratossupersite.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2256&highlight=corse+choice)
or (http://www.stratossupersite.com/forum/showthread.php?t=445&highlight=corse+choice)
more (http://www.stratossupersite.com/forum/showthread.php?t=227&highlight=corse+choice)
did I do this one already? (http://www.stratossupersite.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1516&highlight=corse+choice)

[*Two: The Corse has a more modern suspension. Does it make a difference on track ? Can you notice a difference in for instance lap time with the same driver, and other factors equal - as engine, tyres etc . - given the difference in suspension ?

Such acurate back-to-back comparison has not been done.

[mogul_x]

With regards to interiors, I've found that the instument binnacle (not the panel with the clocks in it) in the Hawk was a little closer to the original than the Corse. The Corse binnacles seemed a little more square - not sure if that was typical of the older Corse kits, or if the same moulding is used in the new ones.

The only other part of the Corse interior that is inherently less faithful to the original is the larger structural member in the floor. Otherwise, the builder's choices in fittings and materials determine how closely either kit will resemble the real thing.

[Patriq Backlund]

try this (http://www.stratossupersite.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2981&highlight=corse+choice)
or this (http://www.stratossupersite.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2256&highlight=corse+choice)
or (http://www.stratossupersite.com/forum/showthread.php?t=445&highlight=corse+choice)
more (http://www.stratossupersite.com/forum/showthread.php?t=227&highlight=corse+choice)
did I do this one already? (http://www.stratossupersite.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1516&highlight=corse+choice)



Such acurate back-to-back comparison has not been done.

Thanks - those links where helpful !

Regards !

[Arthur]

Patriq,

My own, very personal, choice as a CorseI owner runs something like this :-
If you want a car that mimics the original as closely as possible, go for the Hawk.
If you just want a stupidly fast, very robust vehicle, then the Corse S and I are available.
The CorseS has the same Chapman strut rear suspension as the original car, but with modified geometry at the front.
The CorseI ditched the rear struts for wishbones.
The Corse cars, both I and S, also place the fuel tank within the tube frame, unlike the Hawk which has the original setup with two outboard pannier tanks.

So I think what you tend to find is that Hawk owners as a very generalised breed tend to go more to the original look than the Corse owners. (Apologies unreservedly given as required).
You therefore see most Hawk builds as the more original, and the Corse cars much less so.
Don't let this worry you overmuch - either car can be built to the same standard.

The differences tend to be external - look at the fore/aft chassis side ribs on the Hawk, not there on the Corse.
There's the cross box-section thing under your knees on the Corse - Hawk is arranged differently, and more to the original.
There's the louvred box inside the rear panel under the external louvres - there on the Hawk, not there on the Corse.
Hawk rear bulkhead goes pretty much up-and-down. Corse slopes, giving more room for cooling pipes, pumps, etc.
Hawk has, I believe, been designed more around the Beta donor parts than the Corse, which eases the accuracy of a mimic build. So it depends what you want in the finished car.

So at the end, it's the appearance at the gross scale that you need worry about - the rest is in the build.

The CorseI for me was very straightforward mechanically and electrically. The bodywork is a different story. I calculated my build time at 1100 hours (CAE at the time estimated 400). But more than half of that - well more - was in the bodywork. I fitted the G4 round arches for a start, which is a big job - probably 200 hours work there to get them cut, fitted, laminated, then faired in with filler and paint-prepped.
Mechanicals - around 200 hours, including floors, bulkheads, etc, plus the suspension and drivetrain. Surprisingly, electrical about 150 hours. (much more than I thought).
Rest of the time was getting panel shut-lines and doors to line up and look right to the eye.
Mine is in no way a mimic build. I just took the suspension I liked the look of; the fuel tank inboard frame for safety; a dead safe engine choice (12V alpha) and put it together.
Mind you, seeing some of the cars out there since has blown me away.......fabulous builds.

Best of luck.

[chris.richard]

Hawk rear bulkhead goes pretty much up-and-down. Corse slopes, giving more room for cooling pipes, pumps, etc.
Hawk has, I believe, been designed more around the Beta donor parts than the Corse, Best of luck.

Hawk used to do a vertical and a sloping (Lancia style) bulkhead, I'm not sure if they do the vertical any more. Newer chassis than mine (1995) are slightly different to fit the sloping bulkhead.

There's not too many Beta parts still required for the Hawk now = Alfa 164 can provide some, and most others are available easily.