The Future of Log Booking a Replica Strat??

[Alex Wood]

I read a comment from Stephen - SUSIT (or it could've been Chris R.) in another thread that the MSA are intending to make kit cars inelegable for rally log booking after 2007 season. This came as a bit of concern to me as i was still planning to build a Strat to compete it.
I sent an email off to the MSA asking for some clarity, this is the reply. (thought it might be of interest to you guys)

'Good afternoon

Limited production cars can be accepted under the present regulations provided there is compliance with those regulations. I cannot confirm what the revised regulations that will come into force in 2008 will be but there is an outline on our website, www.msauk.org In fairness it has to be pointed out that it is unlikely that the car you describe in that specification will not be within the regulations that we anticipate will be introduced.

Cars that meet current regulations can be used until 2010 but not necessarily after that.

Regards,

John

JOHN SYMES
Technical and Risk Control Manager
For and on behalf of
The Royal Automobile Club Motor Sports Association Ltd '

I've looked on the website but not been able to find the outline of the 2008 regs. Has anyone got a clearer view on what will be happening over the next few years?

[Martin K]

it has to be pointed out that it is unlikely that the car you describe in that specification will not be within the regulations

This kind of double negative is hard to fathom.

Does John Symes mean that it is likely the car WILL be within the regulations?

Or likely that it will NOT be within the regulations?

HELP!


:confused:

[SUSIT]

I read a comment from Stephen - SUSIT (or it could've been Chris R.) in another thread that the MSA are intending to make kit cars inelegable for rally log booking after 2007 season. This came as a bit of concern to me as i was still planning to build a Strat to compete it.
I sent an email off to the MSA asking for some clarity, this is the reply. (thought it might be of interest to you guys)

'Good afternoon

Limited production cars can be accepted under the present regulations provided there is compliance with those regulations. I cannot confirm what the revised regulations that will come into force in 2008 will be but there is an outline on our website, www.msauk.org In fairness it has to be pointed out that it is unlikely that the car you describe in that specification will not be within the regulations that we anticipate will be introduced.

Cars that meet current regulations can be used until 2010 but not necessarily after that.

Regards,

John

JOHN SYMES
Technical and Risk Control Manager
For and on behalf of
The Royal Automobile Club Motor Sports Association Ltd '

I've looked on the website but not been able to find the outline of the 2008 regs. Has anyone got a clearer view on what will be happening over the next few years?

Dont think the 2007 regs are out never mind an outline of anything later. I cant print what my local man has said about some one you are talking about as I would end up in court however safe to say said person has been known to give totally opposing answers to the same question on the same day, So getting answers that are factual is well neigh imposable. Recent post mentioned that Hawk rollcage certificate may be a problem but nothing definite as yet. :(
For a body that is supposed to represent us the competitors and make their living from our licence fees they ain't doing anything to help us in any way IMHO
If you are hoping to do rallies in a strat replica after 2010 then I think its unlikely but am hoping to be proved very wrong on this one :(

[Alex Wood]

If you are hoping to do rallies in a strat replica after 2010 then I think its unlikely but am hoping to be proved very wrong on this one :(

Sounds a bit ominous. At the rate i'm going at the moment i'll be luck if my project sees the light of day before 2010. Still saving but there's always another drain on funds from somewhere and still trying to convince the missus that it's a good idea. (She's coming around slowly - she bought me a rally day at knockhill for my birthday couple of weeks ago. :D )

Stephen, i take it you are non to impressed with powers that be within the MSA at the moment. If the Stat kit was to fall out with the regs, do you know if it would mean that it couldn't be entered into any rally event in Scotland, or would it just be for Scottish championship events? :confused:

[chris.richard]

I get the feeling that if it's outlawed, it'll be from any event. I read that double negative to mean that he thinks the your proposed replica will be legal.
The said Mr.Symes is the one that is reviewing the Hawk rollcage certificate, according to my Tech Commissioner. He was out of the country until the end of October, so I'm hoping to hear something soon.
I agree with Stephen - you wouldn't think that the MSA was there to facilitate us going rallying! They seem to be in the influence of the motor manufacturers, not their membership.

[carlsberg]

I have read all of the thread with interest, especially as I have had my Hawk logbooked earlier this year for rallying and speed events.

I too had a long discussion with the said mr symes.
The information I got from him was that if the car was able to be logbooked under the normal rules of K37.1.2 then the car was ok. If it fell outside those rules then it had to be built to full FIA spec and logbooked under special rules K 37.1.3

The option of 1.3 is really for all the 1 off specials bike engined minis etc.
This is really what they are trying to phase out as they might not have been engineered properly, weight/strengthening etc as opposed to a 'normal 'car.

The discussion that i had seemed to indicate that small/low volume production/kit cars would be ok as the cars would have passed some official sort of engineering/stress tests even if they had not been type approved.

hope this helps

chris

[chris.richard]

I take it your a 12v engine?

[SUSIT]

I take it your a 12v engine?

It has Chris and very nice it is as well, I had the pleasure of a trip round Oulton park in it early in the year. My Strat highlight of 2006 :)

[SUSIT]

Sounds a bit ominous. At the rate i'm going at the moment i'll be luck if my project sees the light of day before 2010. Still saving but there's always another drain on funds from somewhere and still trying to convince the missus that it's a good idea. (She's coming around slowly - she bought me a rally day at knockhill for my birthday couple of weeks ago. :D )

Stephen, i take it you are non to impressed with powers that be within the MSA at the moment. If the Stat kit was to fall out with the regs, do you know if it would mean that it couldn't be entered into any rally event in Scotland, or would it just be for Scottish championship events? :confused:

I am less than impressed as I was shafted back in the old group A/B days as well when rule changes cost me a large sum of money :mad:

I suppose you could use one on a good old fashioned Scottish type road rally if you made it all one colour with no more than 4 forward facing head lamps, no advertising and oh if you could make it quiet enough :D But why would you want too :rolleyes:
Other than that I think you would be stuffed, unless you organised your own event however I am told liability insurance would price you out :(

[chris.richard]

I suppose you could use one on a good old fashioned Scottish type road rally if you made it all one colour with no more than 4 forward facing head lamps, no advertising and oh if you could make it quiet enough :D But why would you want too :rolleyes:


Not even that mate.
K22.1.3 Headlinings, ..carpets and rear seats must be retained :confused:
K22.2.1 Have a maximum of 4 cylinders. :mad:

[carlsberg]

Ah!! but only if fitted as original equipment Mr2 dosnt have a rear seat and that can do road rallies.....
have to get the hacksaw out and remove 2 cylinders though. Only joking!!!

keep it for stage and sprint.

chris

P.s. Susit the car goes a great deal better now than when you sat in it. My son sorted the whole suspension setup.
It now has the same handling characteristics as my 10th scale model car, but easier to get in and out of!!!

[simon]

The following is an extract from our motor club newsletter.

www.wakefield-dmsc.org.uk


MSA Rallies Committee outlines progress on revised K37 regulations.

The MSA’s Rallies committee met to discuss the Stage Rallies Technical Working Group’s proposed rule change to K37 – the technical regulations for special stage rally cars.

The review and subsequent introduction of revised regulations will align the UK more closely with the world governing body’s regulations and will help to prevent the potential exposure of the sport in an increasingly litigious age.

The Committee has established the key principals to allow detailed workings to be complete in time for presentation to Motor Sports Council in September. After this, the proposed changes will be put out to consultation, enabling further modification if necessary before the new rules are ratified by council in 2007.

The new rules will not come into effect for new build cars before 1st January 2009. all existing vehicles remain eligible until 1st January2010 and this will be further reviewed during 2007/8. However, those vehicles defined in sections (d) and (e) below will become ineligible from 1st January 2010.

Vehicles

a) Eligibility:

i) Cars that are currently or have been homologated in groups A (including WRC) or N or corresponding earlier groups

ii) Series Production Cars

iii) Low volume specialist production cars

b) Minimum weights requirements on all vehicles to be defined

c) Revised wheel and tyre diameters and widths to be defined

d) One off or very low volume cars not permitted

e) Space frame ‘clones’ not permitted


Engines

a) Motorcycle engines not permitted

b) Series Production Engines maximum capacities to be permitted are:-

Petrol

i) 2.0 ltr turbo

ii) 2.5 ltr non turbo 4 valve / cylinder, max. 6 cylinders

iii) 3.0 ltr non turbo 2 valve / cylinder, max. 6 cylinders (including Metro 6R4s to current MSA specifications)

Diesel

iv) 2.5 ltr turbo or non turbo

Categories ii) to iv) align with current FIA Art:255

c) Type of induction original to the vehicle to be maintained

d) Maximum engine capacity increase to be +25% of the largest option for that model

e) Specialist engines i.e. Millington / Hart / Wilcox / QED / Cosworth etc, to be limited to four cylinders 2.5 litre, normally aspirated, with restrictor

f) Power output to be limited to approximately 300 HP

g) Only fuel as set down in Section P of the MSA Competitors Yearbook permitted


Drive trains

Allow conversion from Front Wheel Drive to Rear Wheel Drive and / or Four Wheel Drive within the vehicle structure modifications applied by the FIA for Rallycross, WRC and Super 2000 cars detailed in FIA Art: 279 3 2 2 and Drawings 279 –1&2.

We have had very productive discussions in recent weeks, says John Richardson, Chairman of the Rallies Committee. While there is a lot of work still to complete, we have established the principles that we think will form the basis of the new regulations. We are moving much closer to the FIA’s regulations in many areas, which has to be beneficial for rallying in the UK.

The Stage Rally Technical Working Group and the MSA Rallies Committee believe that this review is timely and will lay the foundations for the future of special stage rallying for the next decade and beyond, in a well regulated, controlled and safe manner. we will take the full proposals to Council in September, after which there will be plenty of time for people to have their input before ratification in 2007



I guess it depends whether they class Strati replica's as "Low volume specialist production cars" or "One off or very low volume cars"

[mogul_x]

Or more ominously, whether they consider them clones per item "e"

e) Space frame ‘clones’ not permitted

[John]

I think this is one area where both manufacturers could do with a joint approach to the MSA to stress that Stratos replicas are indeed recognized low volume specialist production cars. It would benefit club members as a whole for the MSA to recognize this. If members can put aside their personal preferences and the manufacturers put aside any bias (or worse) that they may feel towards the other then something worthwhile could be acheived in a joint approach to the MSA for recognition for Stratos replicas.
Can the club take this on board?

[strat6v]

I'll speak to Gerry and lionel.

On a similar tack, i now have the paperwork from the MSA to apply for affiliation for the SEC so hopefully i can combine both at the same time.

John

[JohnB_SPY8808053]

Good luck guys - I lost that fight long ago on this side of the pond. I still don't understand why they think excluding people from the sport helps it grow.

John B.

[Martin K]

d) One off or very low volume cars not permitted

e) Space frame ‘clones’ not permitted


I have discussed these matters with representatives of our local regional motorsport association. Some hate the very idea that rallying has moved on from the sixties when you took your work/shopping car rallying at the weekend. But it has, of course .....

They, and the MSA, think that many 'half-breed' cars are generally badly constructed. My argument is that if the car comes from a reputable builder (i.e. the chassis and the suspension etc) and has an SVA then it is probably a safer car than a 30 or 40 year old Escort, or a slightly younger Fiesta or Peugeot, that has been prepped by two mates on the driveway, using a pile of second hand bits and a shell from god knows where, which only needs an MOT to compete.

At some point the MSA will have to come up with a number for category d), surely? And the sooner the better.

Space frame 'clones' I take to mean a space frame car with panels similar to, say, a production Ford or Peugeot. The reason I understand it to mean this is that I know the MSA has a particular aversion to such vehicles.

I think there is a difference between a clone of this sort and a replica, and the regulations SHOULD make this clear.

Whether they will or not when published is a different matter altogether........

[simon]

I think they are having similar problems with Davrian's/Darrian's.
Some seem to have no problem at the moment but if they have engines like Millington's then the MSA are classing them as race engines and not issuing log books. They say a Millington is a race not a production engine so won't allow it, but I notice they will allow "e) Specialist engines" with a restrictor after there was quite a backlash and companies saying they would be forced out of business. So I think there is a little bit of lattitude if the point is put across properly. Maybe even joining forces with the Darrian people will help too as they will be in the same boat.

[Martin K]

As before I rallied a Stratos Replica I rallied a Mk VIII Davrian, I would say a very loud 'here here'!