Thinking...Hawk or CAE?!

[RX7orSTRATOS]

Hey list,

question...I am thinking of doing the stratos replica project...but which kit? CAE or Hawk? I'm looking for performance that the classic stratos had. But I'll do some high tech mods to go with it! ;) I am going to use the car at tracks, mountains, and highways. Not a daily driver but everyweekend.

If CAE, model i or s? What kind of choices am I looking at for Hawk (chassis)?

Engine choice looks like the Alfa V6, bad or good?

Thanks list

-joe

[Stratos]

If you are wanting to start with a completely new kit, then you don't have any choice at present, as the only kit which is currently in production is the Hawk.

An added advantage of the Hawk would be that there is a US Distributor.

There is talk about the CAE going back into production, but nothing is finalised as yet.

If you are willing to purchase a part-finished or completed car, then you have the option of either manufacturer.

[mogul_x]

Joe,

If you're looking for total performance, I'd say that the Corse I is the way to go. It has a better triangulated frame than either of the other two models, and double wishbone suspension at all four corners, rather than struts on the rear. On paper at least, it's got more potential.

Even the Corse S has a few features in the front end that might benefit a competition car, such as a more robust front spring perch. The Hawk is an exact reproduction of the Stratos front suspension, so you have a 30 year old suspension geometry to deal with. Hawks can (and do) perform very well, but the front upper wishbone mount is not in double shear, which some sanctioning bodies in the 'States may frown upon. Some modifications would be required to the roll cage to pass SCCA regs as well.

There is a lightwieght competition version of the Hawk being developed, but I don't know the particulars. John Rutter (rutthenut) could provide some detail, since the only one extant is his.

Now the downside - the CAE cars are out of production, and I'm not sure if Hennessey (the new owner) is producing kits yet. (Anybody have any updates on this?) They can be had used, but then you have the additional headache of importing it (Importing kits is easy, complete cars is not) and converting from right hand drive to Left hand drive (easier in a Corse, harder in a Hawk).

Hawks are, of course, available new, and are very authentic replicas of the real thing. They perform like the originals, warts and all.

The Alfa v-6 seems like the preferred powertrain for both Hawk and Corse at the moment. Relatively available and not too expensive. 24 valve engines are scarce in the 'States, but can be had. 12 valve engines are easier to come by. The Alfa makes the right noises, has a good reputation for reliability, and has good drivability. It's a little heavy, so if total performance is your goal, you might consider a turbocharged 4 cylinder. Ferrari 308 also works, but is a little pricey.

I'm sure you'll get a lot of ideas on this forum!

Cheers

[RX7orSTRATOS]

first, thanks for all the info but....

If I go with the Hawk complete kit car with ferrari 308 engine, how much am i looking at? Complete as in kit car not complete built.

Thanks

-joe

[Jeff Davison]

Hi Joe,

Welcome to the group and to this obsessive madness we all share.

Send me an email and I'll send you what I send to all inquiries for the Hawk HF that I get. It's rather lengthy, but I do go a bit into detail what makes up the kit and the process of getting one sent to you.

Costs....Full kit with all the bells and whistles needed from Hawk is in the $17K range. Shipping to your doorstep about $3.5K. Ferrari engine in decent shape about $4k-$5K, transmission and differential about $4K. Brakes, wheels, tires, instruments, seats, misc hardware anywhere from $2k up to your pocketbooks breaking point. In contrast you probably could cobble a "budget" Hawk for around $25K using Lancia Beta bits and drivetrain.

Building a Ferrari powered Straos in the US is NOT an inexpensive proposition. It is, however, a very rewarding one.

There may be an older Ferrari powered Hawk HF. I was in contact with someone on behalf of it's owner (who was diagnosed with a terminal illness) who was selling his at an asking price around $40K.


Jeff Davison

[mogul_x]

Joe,

Just to give you another data point or two....

Back on the old Yahoo stratosreplicaclub site, we did a pretty detailed estimate of build costs. You can search the archives there, or some of the other threads here to get some opinions on the cost of building a kit.

Long and short of it is that Jeff's numbers are good approximate numbers for a new Hawk. If you get a good price on a secondhand kit (say, around$10,000) you might be able to purchase it, import it, and convert it to v-6 power for as little as $18,000. This is very dependent on getting a few lucky breaks on part purchases, and a favorable exchange rate, but it can be done. $25,000 for a new Beta-engined car is a much surer estimate.

If you opt for Alfa Romeo power, figure on something a little closer to $30,000. I'm estimating $35,000 for mine, but I opted for a few expensive extras that aren't absolutely required to build the kit. I'm going for a fairly authentic reproduction, so am spending a little more to get correct trim pieces, lights - that sort of thing. You can substitute similar items to keep costs down.

That used Ferrari engined car Jeff mentioned is a good buy at $40,000. It would cost more than that to build a copy of it. If I substituted Jeff's Ferrari engine estimates for the cost of my Alfa engine, my $35,000 estimate goes up to $42,000. And that's without accounting for any of the other extras that would probably be needed to mount the Ferrari.

I'm sure that Jeff will give you a detailed breakdown of everthing you'd need.

[Stratos]

Scott,

Maybe it would be worthwhile copying those costings from the old forum into a new thread on this forum, and give relevant credits to those who helped to compile it.

I don't want to do it personally in case anyone feels that I am stealing info from the old site. It would be better if it was done by one of the founding members of that forum.

[mogul_x]

David,

No worries about copying from the other site - that's why it's there!:)

Nonetheless, I'll take care of copying the information to this site. It'll save you the time of finding and editing it.

Cheers,

[Stratos]

Thanks, Scott.

[colin artus]

I don't want to confuse anyone with more choice but have any of our American friends considered a homegrown powerplant?
I was thinking of the Ford Taurus SHO V6 which gave 225 bhp as standard. If the engine and transaxle had been available in the UK at the time, Transformer would have offered it as an option.
They must be quite cheap by now.

Colin

[Stratos]

Colin,

Is that the engine that is known across here (UK) as the Duratec V6 2.5?

The same as used by Noble in their M12 - in twin turbo mode!!!

[colin artus]

No, altogether different. It was a 3.2? with an iron block but fitted with 24V aluminium heads that were designed and made by Yamaha. With a five speed transaxle it was fitted transversely into the Taurus, the US equivalent of the old Mondeo I think.
It revved to well over 7000rpm and was, perhaps, rather too European in flavour to be a big success in a mid sized US Ford.

Colin

[mogul_x]

Originally posted by colin artus
I don't want to confuse anyone with more choice but have any of our American friends considered a homegrown powerplant?

Colin

Colin,

We have thrown around a few ideas about using an American engine, but nobody has followed up on any of them. Main reason is that nobody wanted the hassle of sorting out engine mounts, shift linkages, and halfshaft adapters. Especially when so many others have already installed Alfa and Beta engines, and are able to answer questions!

Some of the suggestions that were made regarding US engines included the Taurus SHO (v-6 and v-8), GM's Twin Dual Cam v-6 (Only used in the Chevrolet Monte Carlo in the mid 90's, not easy to find with a 5-speed) The Cadillac Northstar v-8 (not available with a manual transaxle) and the new 3.2 liter v-6 that GM is using in Opel, Cadillac, and reportedly, the next generation of Alfa Romeo sedans. Presently, all of these engines are more expensive than a used Alfa engine, if you can find them.

Now if any of us can work up the courage to give it a try....

[mogul_x]

Colin,

Our Taurus was a homegrown platform, a little bigger than your Mondeo. We actually had the Mondeo over here, but I think they sold it as a Ford Coutour or Mercury Mystique.

The Taurus SHO v-6 was well-recieved over here among the enthusiasts and automotive press, but was never intended to sell in large numbers. The Yamaha engine was an expensive option, and the 5-speed didn't sit well with mid-sized car buyers. They eventually saddled the v-8 SHO with an automatic, and it didn't appeal to anyone. I'm not even sure if they're still making it.

The short lived Contour SVT would have made a great donor engine as well. I think that was 250 horsepower, and available with a 5-speed.

[Jeff Davison]

I was toying with the idea of the 6 cyl. Ford SHO motor but when I found out what it weighed dropped the idea immediately. It cam in at a portly 550 lbs without tranny. I even had an 89 SHO Taurus sitting in my driveway as a donor before I recieved my Hawk kit.

I was also considering the Caddy / Oldsmobile 4.6/4.0 Northstar. A really nice engine and very light but there really is no suitable manual transmission that is strong enough that can be easily bolted on. Likewise I was looking at the 6 cylinder variant of that motor from the Oldsmobile Aurora. 1/4 lighter than the Northstar and a NICE motor dispite it's 45 degree cylinder angle (not quite balanced for a 6). There is a manual GM transmission that would work, but if I was going to do a 6, it might as well be more appropriate in the spirit of the original to do the Alfa. Found a donor 164, but decided to build up my "period"
Group B Abarth 131 16 valve Fiat twin cam. I'm 90% finished with it's build up.... wouldn't you know it, came across a very good condition 308QV at a really great price......well, sold the Alfa last week, so now I have to decide which Lampredi designed motor to motivat my Hawk.

Jeff Davison

[DuncanM]

Just for completeness, it's worth noting that the Hawk is/was available with Honda (2.7) V6 engine mounts too. I doubt there are many suitable donor cars in the US, as it was (only?) used in the Legend and the Rover 827. Here, 827s seem quite cheap, but I've never seen a Honda engined car, and most people seem to prefer staying with Italian power.

[mogul_x]

Duncan,

Legends were sold here under the Acura nameplate. I'm assuming that they're the same as the ones you have. The Rover 827 might have been sold over here as a Sterling, albeit breifly. I do remember reading that the Sterling was a rebadged British Honda.

The Sterling is pretty scarce, but the Acura must be at least as common as the Alfa. On the plus side, if you can find a Sterling, I bet you could pick it up for next to nothing.

The Legend has since been replaced by the 3.2TL. Anybody know if the engine mounts are the same as the 2.7?

I think the reason that people might not consider the Honda engine is that Gerry doesn't list that option in his literature - only on the web site. I've never seen prices for an HF2700. I'm not sure if he officially supports that one anymore.

[DuncanM]

I think that Accuras are merely badge engineered Hondas, so the Legend would be the same car. IIRC the Honda 2.7 V6 was stopped production in '96.
The 800 series was marketed as the Rover Sterling in the US (IIRC), but I'm not sure whether your Sterling was the same as ours (ours is the top of the range 827). It is possible that the US Sterlings had all the engines from 2.0 to 2.7. After '96, they used Rover KV6 engines (which are 2.5 and reputedly awful).
The last stuff I had from Hawk (my catalogues are out of date as I soon realised that I couldn't affford the car) had similar details to those on the main site of this forum, so these were the options:
HF2000 Two-litre Lancia Beta/Thema/Delta engine, 8v/16v/Turbo/Volumex
HF2400 2.4 litre Ferrari Dino V6 engine
HF2500 2.5 litre Alfa Romeo V6 from the 155 (not the GTV6 or 75/Milano)
HF2700 2.7 litre Honda/Rover V6 (ie. from Rover/Sterling 827)
HF3000 3.0 litre Alfa Romeo V6 from the 164 (not the 75/Milano)
HF3000QV 3.0 litre Ferrari Quattrovalvole
Dunno if this is still the case though...

[DuncanM]

I forgot to say that I don't know if the engine mounts are the same or not. I guess the ultimate Honda engined Stratos rep would have the NSX V6 in it! 276 hp, and a 6 speed box! :cool: :D Don't think there will be many of them lying around in breakers yards though. :(

[lpriestland]

Laurence Castle has/had a Honda v6 powered Corse.

Apprently the engine is management was v.v.complicated but he successfully managed to rewire it.

It sounded lovely through his straight through exhaust . :D I drove behind him once and when he put his foot down it felt like my windscreen would cave in. :eek:

Being a Honda, it was reliable too.

[colin artus]

The Sterling lasted such a short time in the US that the whole enterprise had failed before Rover had begun to receive the 2.7 units from Honda; all the Rover units will be 2.5l.
The later 3.2 is quite different to the 2.5/2.7. so you would be on your own there. However, Gerry will still have the jigs for the Honda 2.5/2.7 engine and apart from the restrictive injection systems they are good engines. On carbs and with new cams 250 bhp is no problem.

Colin