Rear wheel stud fitting

[Sptwoman]

Has anyone any tips on fitting studs into a Gerry supplied 5 stud Hawk rear hubs? I attempted to fit my Gerry supplied rear wheel studs last night. Sounds simple!! Armed with locktite and 2 lock nuts, I tightened the 1st one up only to find it had gone off square!
Any ideas?

[chris.richard]

Seems odd, it should stay square if the hole is square :p well, you know what I mean! Aren't the hubs just Integrale hubs?

I had to change my Hawk supplied studs for longer ones because I needed to use a 10mm spacer with my 0 offset wheels.

[Matt No VAT]

I fitted studs to my rear hubs, they were from a 164 though, coated with locktite and went straight in, no messing. Studs were supplied by Gerry. Been solid as a rock ever since.

Did you try test fitting them before the locktite was applied and did everything fit properly and stay square?

[Sptwoman]

I think the issue is down to the loose thread, either on the hub but more likely the stud, which allows the stud to wobble in the hub. This and the faces of the thread on hub and stud. It all looks square until you tighten up. Then the stud appears to screw in too far and starts to run off centre.

Chris, Where did you get your replacement studs from?

Matt, They look ok apart from the issue with the loose threads, until you start to tighten them up. Then they go off centre. I've only tried one and removed it before the thing set!

[chris.richard]

I think mine were from Rally Design or Merlin.
Loose threads? It sounds like the threads are incompatible - are the studs an imperial thread?

[pimms]

Matt, They look ok apart from the issue with the loose threads, until you start to tighten them up. Then they go off centre. I've only tried one and removed it before the thing set!


I had exactly the same problem, the studs also seem to go in too far into thhe hub sticking out at the back. I got them all in and had to tick some of them straight (??) to get the wheels on. Still not sure of replacing them :o

[Sptwoman]

Chris,
What thread spec studs did you quote when you contacted these people? The threads are loose, as if they're incompatible but Gerry says that's how they are!. The problems appears to be when tightening the stud up. There is no face for the threads to butt up to so the hub thread start to cut into the stud body introducing added threading unevenly!!

Pim,
Sounds the same as me. Gerry assures me they're ok but :rolleyes: I'm not sure. I would like a tight thread and fully locked stud for peace of mind.

[Chris J]

Allen

I remember buying some M12 1.25 (Lancia Fiat thread) conversion studs from Demon Tweeks about 6 years ago. The quality of thread was iffy to say the least. They were the right thread size, but were so loose as to make you wonder. The other problem was that the 'blank' (unthreaded) part in the middle was/is actually narrower than the outside diameter of the threads. So that when they were screwed into the hub, they just kept going! Are yours like those?

When I got this car, Martin K had already been using some quality conversion studs and nuts, secured with loctite probably AND a small grub screw. The quality of these studs is much better than the ones I got from Demon Tweeks, and they have a proper 'shoulder' on the unthreaded part. 'Trouble is I'm now one stud short on each hub now that the car has five instead of four. For the time being I've used one of the dodgy ones per hub, but I don't like them.

[Sptwoman]

Chris,

That's partly the description of my problem. The blank part of the stud is not wide enough to withstand the hub threads eating into it when tightening. When this happens, the thing goes off true.
As you're short of 4, have you asked Martin where he sourced his from? Do you have the thread spec for both ends as they are different? Chris R mentioned Rally Design or Merlin but I'd like to be sure of the spec before I ring.

[Chris J]

Chris,

Do you have the thread spec for both ends as they are different?

Ahh, so the studs you have are M12 1.25 (Fiat/Lancia) at one end (the end that screws into your hub, and M12 1.5 at the other (nut) end? Mine are Fiat/Lancia thread at both ends. It's easier to get hold of 1.5 thread nuts because that's the common size. I'm guessing that's the thinking behind different threads at either end?

You can ask Martin K. where he got the stud on here Allen, but it'll be a long time since (late 1980s) but he'll probably know a good supplier these days. There'll be a few who can point you in the right direction, I'm guessing John Rutter will know where to get some. I'm not sure if threads at either end might be just a 'Hawk' thing though?

[PANOS]

HI EVERYBODY...

Try GRAYSTON ENGINEERING 02089741122 - GRAYSTON.BIZ or GRAYSTONENGINEERING.COM, they are stud / wheel nut / spacer specialists, WRC teams and others use them and so do I, as I am their dealer in Cyprus...
Tell Nigel that Panos sent you and he better give you good service and prices...!!!
I think Merlin / Demon Tweeks and others get their stuff from them...
They only deal with trade, but I have asked them to make an exception in the SEC's members case... Give them a try anyway, nothing to loose...

CIAO PANOS

[Chris J]

'Just another thought...

...If anyone is short of the harder to find M12 1.25 nuts, try old Nissans in scrapyards.

Merlin Motorsport do give good service. I'm sure the studs they supply will be ok, but Panos' supplier sounds like a very safe bet.

Merlin Motorsport list (these'll be same thread at either end of the stud):
M12 x 1.25 at £1.50 each
M12 x 1.5 at £1.50 each

[chris.richard]

took me a while to find the receipt. (I hide them) ;)

Rally Design part no. SS22 Peugeot conversion stud 50mm total length, 38mm exposed length, 12mm x 1.25 hub thread. Can't remember outer threead, but it fits standard Revolution nuts. £0.50 each page 72 of current catalogue.

[strat6v]

Chris J, Is the nissan nut taper 60 Degrees?
rally design have open nuts with 60 degree taper, zinc plated for 80p each. Part number sn43 (12mm x 1.25).

:) Seems a few of us are all on with the same job at the same time. Gonna drive us all nuts :D :D

[Sptwoman]

Thanks everyone for all the advise and help, I'll make a few calls in the morning. I'd feel happier with the things locked centrally in position. I'm assuming the stud 1.25/1.5 thread idea is to keep the same pitch front and rear so I'd like to keep it that way if possible.
Panos , Interestingly enough, I'm sure Gerry mentioned they were supplied by GRAYSTON and were a "rolled" product :confused: I'll have a chat with Nigel, thanks.

[Chris J]

Chris J, Is the nissan nut taper 60 Degrees?
rally design have open nuts with 60 degree taper, zinc plated for 80p each. Part number sn43 (12mm x 1.25).

:) Seems a few of us are all on with the same job at the same time. Gonna drive us all nuts :D :D

The Nissan taper must be 60 degrees. They fitted the Image centres ok. It's best to get a new set though, like the ones you're quoting. I meant Nissan ones if you didn't have any lying around, with them not being as common, and you needed some in a hurry?

I'm going to need 4 (better quality) fine nuts and studs myself at some point.

[Chris J]

I'm assuming the stud 1.25/1.5 thread idea is to keep the same pitch front and rear so I'd like to keep it that way if possible.

So is the alloy front 5 stud hub threaded 1.5 ?

[strat6v]

Bernard found the same problem. Perhaps a 1.25 thread is too fine for ally?

[Sptwoman]

Chris J, I'm sure Gerry mentioned the ali hubs he supplies have the studs pressed in as standard. Yes, they are M12 / 1.5 thread at the nut end. States they'll go no where!!
I've looked on the GRAYSTON site and it looks promising. Panos recommends I talk to Nigel.

[chris.richard]

Chris J, I'm sure Gerry mentioned the ali hubs he supplies have the studs pressed in as standard.

Yes they are.

I'm assuming the stud 1.25/1.5 thread idea is to keep the same pitch front and rear

That's why I did it anyway :)

[Sptwoman]

I had an interesting morning, ringing round. Gayston advised me to drill out to M14 and fit a proper stud from the inside!! Apart from that, it was fruitless. Rally Design have what I've already got. Merlin however do stock M12 1.25 studs where the blank part of the stud has a larger diameter and has a shoulder!!! Looks like it's going to be odd nuts front and rear for me :D

[Sando]

Hi Allen
Try Walkers Garage in North Yorks they do very good quality rolled thread studs in all threads / sizes and Nuts to suit. These were the ones I went for after a lot of searching. I think there was a link in a previous post in the suppliers section or do a search as I'm sure there has been a thread ( :D ) around this before.

Cheers
Rob

[Chris J]

Here it is Rob:

http://www.stratossupersite.com/forum/showthread.php?t=649&highlight=walkers+studs

Also, 'Bernie's odd nuts' thread!:

http://www.stratossupersite.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1146&highlight=walkers+studs

We just go round in circles.

[Sptwoman]

I know I go round in circles attempting to resolve my issues using the forum searches, that's life. I do find it useful to find out if there's any new info available.
Martin K has mentioned Gartrac, so I'll check in the morning.

[Chris J]

I know I go round in circles attempting to resolve my issues using the forum searches, that's life. I do find it useful to find out if there's any new info available.

No Allen, it's a good idea to keep revising things. It's just that I get a bit worried when I can't remember what's already been said. Especially when I've been involved in the conversation!

I thought my memory was ok...

[chris.richard]

I thought my memory was ok...

No Chris, you think you thought your memory was OK!! :D

[igosling]

All,

Having read this thread I am still confused. So for clarity...Looking at the Hawk rear hub internal thread looks like 1.25mm. The front hub (Hawk conversion) studs look the same. Therefore I am assumming that an 80mm 12x1.25mm stud for th erear hubs will do the trick and allow the use of the same wheel nuts front and back ??

Is this right??

Iain

[Sptwoman]

Iain,

Nope it isn't as simple as that. The front stud is 1.5 pitch. The rear hub thread is 1.25. So to have matching nuts, the rear stud needs to be 1.25 at the hub end and 1.5 at the nut end.
This thread does mention various experiences. I've got a set of Grayston's studs but they have no shoulder to tighten up to the hub face so are not a sound solution for me. Rally Design have the same issue. Merlin do a stud with a shoulder but they're 1.25 both ends so it's odd nuts. Gartrac quoted me £9 each excl for their studs :eek:
I still haven't got round to finding a cheaper solution so may go back to Gartrac!!!
See pic below of the Grayston stud.

[Sptwoman]

Well, I've ordered my studs today locally for £6 excl each. It may sound expensive but I'll have a nice finish AND matching nuts :D

[strat6v]

Ah!

My front hubs (redrilled dino) are being tapped 1.25 so i should be able to order 1.25 studs all round? Probably won't be able to find any nuts then!

Allen, does your supplier do a 1.25 stud ( full length) with a shoulder?

[Sptwoman]

John, He's actually making them up for me so he'll make what ever's required. If you're going down the straight 1.25 pitch stud then I'm sure Merlin M/Sport (http://www.merlinmotorsport.com/index.php?cPath=1752_1753) advised me that their studs had a shoulder. Even though their picture doesn't look like they do!!

[strat6v]

Rang Merlin, they had ten but unfortunately they were too short.

[Sptwoman]

John, Provide me with your spec and I'll ask for a price from my local supplier..

[Sptwoman]

Anybody looking for Grayston rear studs? I have 10 @ £1 each

[Sptwoman]

Are these nuts (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Wheel-Nuts-M12-x-1-5-60-degree-seat-Bright-Zinc_W0QQitemZ130085354981QQihZ003QQcategoryZ72257 QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem) ok for the 5 stud Hawk hubs? Before I commit to buy, any comments? 55p each and £4.50 P&P for 20 ain't a bad price!! I'm using Gerry's coffin wheels..

[pimms]

Are these nuts (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Wheel-Nuts-M12-x-1-5-60-degree-seat-Bright-Zinc_W0QQitemZ130085354981QQihZ003QQcategoryZ72257 QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem) ok for the 5 stud Hawk hubs? Before I commit to buy, any comments? 55p each and £4.50 P&P for 20 ain't a bad price!! I'm using Gerry's coffin wheels..

I think they are OK, measured my threads and it was M12 x 1.5, and I read athread stating that Gerry's coffins have a 60 degree seat. So i ordered these that come with a special tool:

http://cgi.ebay.nl/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=150095392657&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=005

Was a bit of a beginners mistake on this one price is ok but postage more than double :mad: Should have asked first :o

Anyway i wont have to use seperate lock nuts now.

Regards

Ps haven't recieved them yet, can tell you next week if they fit OK.

[Martin K]

Just reviving this thread because I have found that ARP do a range of wheel studs - and if you can find the right combination of dimensions they are sue to be a good solution:

http://www.arp-bolts.com/Catalog/Catalog.html

Page 66

There are UK agents of ARP including Kent Cams, Co-Ord Sport and Arrow Precision Engineering, though they probably only stock a range of ARP nuts & bolts that suits their normal products.

[andysell]

Hi All,

Just a quick note,
I will be making nuts and studs in the not too distant future for my own car (hoping to pick it up next week!), studs will probably by stainless steel and the nuts will be Titanium, would be easy to add a few extra on to the batches. I am going to make them any way so I am happy to do them at cost for all SEC members. Studs will be thread rolled and the nuts will be screw cut. They can be made in any style you like so no problem to replicate any design as long as the nuts are hexagon drive and not aircraft socket style is these are made from forgings.

Andy

[SUSIT]

Andy,
Can I ask why Stainless? Is Stainless not more brittle than high tensile steel?

Please exscuse my ignorance

Stephen

[strat6v]

See some of Arthurs previous posts. :)

[SUSIT]

See some of Arthurs previous posts. :)


Ok I have done and if I read it right then you need a very specific and expensive grade of Stainless. Would be interested to hear the benefits

Arthurs thread can be found here

http://www.stratossupersite.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10876#post10876


Stephen

[strat6v]

better with the high tensile studs. Wouldn't mind some titanium nuts though :)

[andysell]

Hi yes,
Stainless is fine as long as the right grade is used ,we have made many thousands of Stainless and Titanium fasteners for motorsport in the last few years(approx 20,000 per month ) and no breakages yet!

Of course it won`t rust and just looks nicer when finished, plus titanium runs nicely on it, titanium to titanium can cause seizure problems without some kind of thread lubricant or locking compound.

Try to imagine how much shear force is required to break 5 12mm diameter studs....much more than the wheel could stand!
What is much more important is the thread as this is the weakest part of the stud, rolled threads forge the thread into the surface of the stud and makes them very tough , increasing the tensile strength (how much you can stretch the part before it fractures) .
It never ceases to amaze me that people will buy parts from a wholesaler like Demon Theives and believe what is written on the box, when it is quite possible that these parts are made by Chinese slaves from monkey metal.

[strat6v]

Hi Andy,

I'm sure you've read this thread. One of the problems with the aftermarket studs is there is no shoulder of any sort to butt up against the hub. When the stud is run in and reaches the unthreaded portion, it then runs out of true, maybe due to the thread of the stud being a little slack in the hub thread?

[andysell]

Hi John,

These type of studs with a smaller center are mass produced ones where the manufacturer has used material manufactured to the correct thread rolling diameter and then simply blanked them to length and rolled the threads on to each end.
They are probably plenty strong enough but are intended for use in a blind hole where they are tightened against the bottom of the hole.

Hub flanges with through holes require a stud with a centre section that is larger than or at least the same size as the outside diameter of the thread to tighten against. Idealy a small flange on the stud should be used to tighten against a corrosponding counter bore in the hub so that there are two flat faces pulling together, spreading the load and guaranteeing them square.

If the thread is loose and there is no flange then the stud will pull over to one side because the thread is after all a spiral (helix) which is angled and if there is enough clearance between hole and stud, the stud will pull over to the angle of the helix.
A longer hole will reduce this effect but a stud with a wasted center section will increase the problem as you tighten it down because the full diameter thread is wound down below the top of the threaded hole, and as the stud tightens it will cut a thread into the center section potentially ruining the thread in the hub in the process.
Personally I don`t think this is safe for a stressed area and would recommend removing them and replacing with something more suitable.

Don`t mean to get too technical and I have to stop playing now as my wife is making me go out shopping!

Any way I hope that helps.

Andy

[strat6v]

cetainly helps Andy.

So sorry that the missus is forcing you to go shopping :( Maybe they'll have an adult creche with sofas, coffee and magazines for tortured husbands :D :D

[Chris J]

It never ceases to amaze me that people will buy parts from a wholesaler like Demon Theives and believe what is written on the box, when it is quite possible that these parts are made by Chinese slaves from monkey metal.

I know Andy, they sent me some. I've never dared to use them.

[Sptwoman]

I experienced the same quality issues when searching for studs so had mine made of high tensile steel locally. They weren't cheap but they're quality!!