Newbie - 12V Cloverleaf Wanted

[marcoos_1]

Hi to all in forum. I'm new here and have just purchased a Stratos replica (collecting it in the next couple of weeks). It's running Lancia twin cam and I would like to source a 12V Alfa V6 Cloverleaf set up. Does anyone know of any for sale? I would prefer to get a complete car. Any idea what I should pay?

I reckon if I am going to convert it, then I might as well do it right.

Thanks guys.

[chris.richard]

They come up regularly on ebay. Whole cars for £300-£500.

Welcome to the joys of Stratos ownership! What car have you bought?
Here's an offer.. (http://www.digest.net/alfa/FAQ/164/forum2/DCForumID3/1265.html)

[guy mayers]

I'd agree with Chris, having bought one myself for £280 on Ebay 6 months ago. Bodywork wasn't pretty but it was a good runner with service history. Was, because it's gone now, having left it's innards all over the floor of my garage!
Try to buy something with a few months MOT and tax and use it to make sure it's ok before you break it though.
Guy

[marcoos_1]

Thanks Guys.

I've been offered a 12V Cloverleaf, but it's in bits and the guy wanted £450 just for the engine. I think I will pass however.....I agree that it would be much better to have a complete car and hear it running or at least drive it.

I'll keep an eye on E-bay. Is the 12V Cloverleaf a better option than the 24V?

[chris.richard]

There have been some 12/24v discussions - try searching the archive. 24v seem to be gaining popularity. Heavier, newer design, a bit more complex maintenance, various versions now available (2.5, 3.0, 3.2)
If the guy's done all the removal, it's fair to pay a bit more just to pick up the bits you want, but you haven't seen it running.

[Chris J]

I'm new here and have just purchased a Stratos replica (collecting it in the next couple of weeks).

How/where did you find that one Mark?

[marcoos_1]

Saw it at Stoneleigh this year and just had to go for it!

[guy mayers]

Was it the blue Transformer?

[Chris J]

The subframe car?

[marcoos_1]

Yeah, the blue transformer. I just thought it was too good to pass up on. It's only really had one owner since new, lots of history and most of the expensive bits are there (and the price was right). With some TLC it could be a very tidy car.

I'm looking forward to getting started! No doubt I'll be on to pick your brains..........

[rutthenut]

What was on the V5?

I noticed that the tax disc had it listed as a Lancia.

[SCOTTY]

Was that the blue plug with the squinty bodywork . Apparently Stevie Wonder was hired to sort out the gaps. Anyway nice purchase bruv cant wait to have some fun again . Re Fort William at the weekend ,great drive up ,not quite so good on the way back 97.3 mph in a sixty ,oh well just as well i know your date of birth .May have to consider p/exing mine for a Beaufort or Dutton Mariner i dont think you need a licence for either only a letter from your shrink

[roger001]

If it is an early subframe car a V6 conversion could be a bit of a challenge.....

[marcoos_1]

Yeah......it could be difficult.........but hey.......where there's a will there's a way!

Actually Scotty, I believe it was Helen Keller that built the entire car! Anyway......I need at LEAST a Cloverleaf powerplant as there's another guy that stays near me with an Alitalia car.....he reckons it's quick but I know he runs a ported and polished Beetle engine on VW transporter chassis............have you heard that exhaust note?????

97.3mph in a sixty??? Hey Bruv......did you bribe the policeman to make the reading look more spectacular? I can't think of a hill big enough on the way down from Fort William........................

Can't wait to get the cars together........we're gonna have some fun!!!!!

Got a line on a good engine if you are interested...........call me.

[guy mayers]

If the car is a Beta subframed one and you are going to fit an Alfa to it I'd recommend that you strip the car down and take the chassis back to Gerry to have the proper bits grafted on. I think he did that with a number of other early subframed cars. It'll be easier to do that than try to mount a Cloverleaf onto a Beta subframe....
Guy

[marcoos_1]

Gulp!

Sounds expensive....has anyone done this and has anyone an idea of what it would cost?

[guy mayers]

It's probably not as bad as you might think! i suspect that if you call Gerry and tell him what you are proposing to do he might prefer to see the chassis retfitted with the correct chassis cage to to suit the Alfa installation. Beleive it or not but he does take a great deal of pride in his products!
All I can suggest is that you call him (01892750341) and tell him what you are intending doing and ask for a price to have the relevant pieces of steel replaced. It might not be as bad as you think! And it's got to better than engineering your own mounts?
Guy

[marcoos_1]

Hmmmm....................I spoke with Gerry, regarding the above. His view was don't bother - not exactly encouraging!

Anyway........I need to get my hands on the beastie first, then work out what I want to do. If I do decide to change it all around, (and I really don't believe it can be THAT hard - I have all the workshop/fabrication facilities I need) then I would like to know if anyone has ever tried this approach? Does anyone know of any successes (or failures!). I have the added benefit of being able to use my brothers HF3000 as a template.

Mark.

[strat6v]

Just make sure you keep everything straight and have it welded up by an expert with decent kit(tig?)

john.

[chris.richard]

I'd have thought that if you've got an HF3000 to hand to copy, and the facilities for the cutting/welding, then it would be do-able with a bit of determination. My approach would be to make a jig from your brothers car to provide the basis to fabricate what's needed on yours. I have never seen a Beta subframed version, so I don't know exactly what's involved. You might need to remove the glassfibre centre bodywork to get adequate access to the chassis to graft on to it.

[Swamprat33]

Hi Mark, Is your brother's HF3000, the early Alitalia car that was also at Stoneleigh this year?

Cheers

Tim

[marcoos_1]

Yeah,

We had the car at Stoneleigh this year. He's had it for a few years now - it used to be Phil Bishops car. Very nice indeed.............I've got some catching up to do!

[marcoos_1]

Well, glad to say I finally picked up the Stratos last weekend. It made the trip all the way from Manchester to Glasgow at about 90mph with no hassle at all. (Well....when I say no hassle I am not counting the incident when my brother Brian who was driving the car back home for me shot past me on the motorway for a laugh and then proceeded to have the steering wheel come off in his hand at about 90mph! Believe it or not, he managed to sweep all three lanes of the M61 and make it to the hard shoulder by gripping the steering coloumn with both hands. Thank god it didn't have a brake pull! The moral to this story is make sure your quick release sterring wheel is on properely before you drive off. Hmmmm...........could have been a very abrupt end to my Stratos ownership!

Anyway, the car drives really well and I am pleased with the deal. I have not had a chance yet to put it next to Brians HF3000 to see what would be involved in modifying the chassis to get away from the subframe.

I have a question. What engine options are there for me with this set up? I have seen peoplr talking about Volumex's and superchargers etc. Are there any better options that would fit? As it is, it goes pretty well and sounds nice, so I would be happy to run it as it is for a while.....but I was just wondering!

[Swamprat33]

Hi there. that sounds bl**dy scary :eek:

A good Volumex will be a good deal better than a standard twink.
May not be quite as good as a V6, but a damned sight easier (and cheaper) to fit into your car.

Cheers

Tim

[SUSIT]

Can I ask who you bought the car from, I also bought mine from Manchester and I think we may have bought from the same chap. Initials S D by any chance?
Scarry moment, I towed mine to Ballahullish and drove it from there to Inverness.
Have fun.

Cheers
Stephen

[carlsberg]

Gerry will be happy to sell you the conversion parts for the subframe. anyone with good welding skills can fit the new parts, just double check the dimensions though on the chassis/drawing the one I had was incorrect but I managed it anyway.

have fun

chris

[chris.richard]

Gerry will be happy to sell you the conversion parts for the subframe. anyone with good welding skills can fit the new parts, just double check the dimensions though on the chassis/drawing the one I had was incorrect but I managed it anyway.

have fun

chris

Chris , this is one of the very early Transformers that used the donor subframe from the Lancia Beta to mount the engine. The rear chassis is different from the later Beta engined ones, which are easily converted to Alfa power by the Hawk kit.

[marcoos_1]

OK.....so can I assume that a Volumex engine and box would fit right into my subframe? Has anyone done this or would it be a gamble? Any idea of the power outpu of a Volumex with the s/charger? Is it a reliable unit?

Sorry........so many questions................

[mogul_x]

Just an opinion, but it's got to be less of a gamble that fitting a v-6 to a Beta subframed car. It should be a straight swap, since the VX was optional on later Beta Coupe, Spyder and HPE models.

Stock horsepower on a VX is 135 - only about 15 more than a stock 2-liter twin cam, but the torque increase is supposed to be more significant, and greatly improves drivability. I've ridden in Rob Sanderson's Hawk when it was fitted with a VX. I think his engine was essentially stock, and the car was satisfyingly quick from the passenger's seat.

As far as I know, they are no less reliable than a standard twink - a well maintained donor engine or a fresh rebuilt engine should give you reliable service. I know a guy who has built two VX engines for his Montecarlo. The first was a 1.8 liter that made 175 horsepower. I believe he put 150,000 miles on that engine before replacing it with a 2-liter volumex tuned to over 200 horsepower. To my knowledge, he has never mentioned anything about either engine suffering a failure that took the car off the road.

[marcoos_1]

Thanks Scott,

Sounds like it would worth trying to get hold a Volumex donor or engine gearbox. Does anyone know of anything for sale? I guess e-Bay is always worth a look.

Would I need to change rear hubs etc or is the gearbox interface the same?

[SCOTTY]

Before replacing your engine , i would suggest that either replacing your steering wheel or your team colours in that car

[guy mayers]

The VX engine and gearbox are a straight swap. On the Beta there had to be a mod to the inner arch to allow for drive belts but that's not an issue here.
Gerry Hawkridge may have an engine and box available. Not 100% sure but it has to be worth a call.
As Scott said, standard engines produce 135bhp but are heavily detuned. Cams from a 1600 Beta will improve things considerably but will require machining to give you a dizzy drive - it's on the end of the exhaust cam I think. The valves are already pretty big but the head will always benefit from porting and polishing. The carb can be replaced with something a little bigger that is bolted straight to the face of the supercharger. Losing the tortuous inlet manifold improves things greatly BUT you may have bulkhead clearance issues there. Lightened flywheel will improve responsiveness at the expense of a lumpy tickover. The engine will require an electric fuel pump and some additional plumbing and electrics. Nothing too complex though. The supercharger can also be geared up by fitting a smaller cog to it or by using the power steering pulley. You machine out the centre and slip it over the crankshaft pulley and tack it on. 180 - 200 bhp is not too difficult to acheive.

Downsides? - Well yes. Mine had a love of chewing supercharger drive belts and spitting them out. It's a tensioner problem that others didn't seem to have, I think it depends on which side is tensioned and having guide fences on the pulleys. The other is fuel consumption........ It's THIRSTY!!

I also think that most people who built using the VX have now upgraded to the V6. If I were you that's the route I'd go, straight to V6 whatever is involved.

Guy

[mudhut]

Gerry did not have any engines last summer but position might have changed.

Mike Darrieulat (advertises in Viva Lanncia) did have a VX box last summer. He may be able to source an engine.

Just to note that if you acquire the gearbox separately, the VX gearbox does not have the same ratios as Beta 2000. Not sure whather its final drive, box ratios or both. Final drive ratio is stamped on the gearbox casing, IIRC. Beta 2000 box is of course physically compatible with VX engine and vice versa.

Beta box marked:
|-------|
| 2000 |
|-------|

in white paint up on the bell housing near the inspection hole to the flywheel. Not sure about the VX box - possibly says VX.

All the above assuming the marking has not been removed by cleaning off with petrol (it is rather easily removed...)

[John]

According to Guy Crofts book 185 BHP is "easily" attainable from the VX engine. The VX is marked down as one of the most tuneable twin-cam engines. However I get the impression that he is talking engineering wise and NOT talking in terms of money. I would think that rebuilding and tuning a twin-cam these days is going to cost a lot of money, especially re-building the blower.
You could most probably buy a lot of Alfa 164 engine and chassis mods for your car for the same kind of money.
I have a complete engine and box (and blower) but am unlikely to go that way when I do build my car. (soon, soon...)

[catswhiskers]

I have a complete engine and box (and blower) but am unlikely to go that way when I do build my car. (soon, soon...)

Come on John, tell us. How soon. :D :D :D
You ought to make a start while my build is still fresh in your mind. ;)

Mick

[John]

Soon. Or as soon as I've finished with the trowel too! Come on I've only had it almost three years.

[Chris J]

It would be nice to bolt this on the back. If only it didn't have so many internal parts missing?:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Ferrari-Mondial-3-0-QV-and-308-QV-Engine-NEW_W0QQitemZ320003959161QQihZ011QQcategoryZ10380Q QrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[marcoos_1]

John,

would you be willing to part with the engine/box? If so, how much?

I understand the advice on fitting the V6 and this is really the way I'd want to go. Just not too encouraged after chat with Gerry as to how easy it would be to modify my subframed car.

[John]

Mark,
I have not really thought about it.Selling it I mean. I know the blower bits go for a small fortune on ebay. It's not run for probably 8 years either, though it has been dry stored for most of this time. In fact I have not seen it for three years as it is in storage at my mates farm.
If you decide this is definitely the way to go we can talk about it.

[marcoos_1]

John,

I've sent you an e-mail regarding engine.

[John]

It's not arrived!
wjdavidson1955@aol.com.