Alloy High Capacity Radiators

[roger001]

I have spoken to Chis Smith, the 1st batch of radiators is now sold, the chap who made them up is prepared to make a further batch, however as per usual the more we can get together in the order the cheaper the price. The prev batch sold for £325 each. If we can get a further batch together we should be able to match or better this price.
Sando can vouch for the quality of the rads - any takers.........

[mudhut]

Chris Smith said the same to me at the recent Bristol show. Am I right in thinking that his rad. has an integral oil cooler or did I misunderstand?

Either way, I'm up for this so count me in.

Regards

Peter

[chris.richard]

How many in a batch?

[mudhut]

Got the feeling that we were talking ten-ish, but Roger would probably know with greater certainty.

[roger001]

The more the merrier (greater chance of dropping the price) but 4/5 is viable.

[Sando]

The numbers are probably needed to buy the cores in bulk, as well as the work to make them all in one go.
Check with Chris but I think that the above price is for a standard water only rad.
Chris has had his with an oil cooler integrated, I'm sure these could be made too, they can make anything to a drawing but the price will probably alter for a one off.

Personally I think it's a long way to the front for oil cooling and the corresponding pressure drop. (then again probably as much pressure drop as when the oil gets too hot anyway! :) ) Chris says his works fine though and I know other people have also run a front separate oil cooler successfully.

Bobster

[roger001]

Correct the price quoted was for water only.

[mudhut]

And there was me hoping I could get the oil cooler included at that price...

I'd agree the pipe run is quite long but am encouraged by your comment Sando that Chris has not reported any problems and others have used front coolers. As we all know, it is quite difficult to get good air flow in the rear compartment and my experience with a 13 row Mocal cooler at the rear (with beta engine) makes me think its value is minimal just behind the rear bulkhead.

The alternative of an oil to water heat exchanger in the rear compartment is of course a possibility at the cost of added complexity in the plumbing where space is tight and the cost of such a unit makes me think that integrating the cooling into the water radiator may be the simplest option.

Any comments or observations welcome.

[chris.richard]

The oil/water cooler in Sando's car is a really neat solution that take up very little space.
Pictures possible Robbo?

[strat6v]

fitted a laminova oil cooler in mine too.

[Steve Strain]

Hi Guys

If anyone is interested in making an oil/water intercooler have a look at the attached.
It is basically a little boiler unit - I made it at welding classes at a cost of NZ$30 (a tenner) in materials and a bit more for the plumbing. I originally made it for the beta engine.

It consists of ten smaller tubes inside the large outer. Water goes through the middle, oil runs around the outer. I made it reasonably large to offset inefficiency and to fit the location.

The only skills required were steady hands for the TIG and the ability to drill holes accurately through the two end washers that hold all the small tubes in place.

Best bit was the fun in making it and it works!

When fitting it I firstly plumbed it into the return pipe from the radiator but had to change it to the water circulating the engine. I found that on a cold day insufficient water goes to the radiator to cool the oil and the temperature rose compared to warmer days.
The latter meant that the engine thermostat also controlled oil temperature to around 80 degrees (according to the guage - similar to the water temp).
The temp did rise a bit more nearer to 100 when hounding it on track sprints.

For the moment I am using the 164 oil water cooler which seems fine at road speeds.

regards

Steve

[strat6v]

Also, the engine has 38mm and 45mm connections, the rad 35mm so fitting 32mm coolant pipes isn't going to help much. i would have thought 35 minimum but then you have the problem of the inner seat belt mounts passing through the spine :rolleyes:

As a rule of thumb, more power means more heat..... if you only have the two coolant pipes in the spine perhaps an extra pair of smaller bore pipes could be stuffed down there too, then tee'd into the flow and return at each end. wouldn't harm.

[chris.richard]

Nice one Steve - I like a self made solution!

[Sando]

The oil/water cooler in Sando's car is a really neat solution that take up very little space.
Pictures possible Robbo?


...No Photos I'm afraid as its all tucked away now. Neat it is. Effective?.. I'm not so sure :rolleyes: . I think you reallyneed to go for the big mutha one if you can a££ord it (and the space) to keep the temp right down. I've got great water temp, even with 32mm pipes through the spine, but oil is still well over 100 when thrashed. :) or on the motorway. - With low gearing means steady high revs and hot oil (Guage says 130 but the infared guage says 100 -110 so not good, but shouldn't be terminal with good oil. I've not experimented yet but you can restrict the waterflow through it which is supposed to to take more heat out of the oil, but not sure if I should go that route or not. Roger has tried this with the same laminova but don't know if this has improved things...Rog?

Must admit I'm tempted to go back to the old Air cooler with some fans on. I've never been 100% convinced with the water coolers. At least with that I could see a difference in temp when swiched on. John is spot on tho' more power = more heat so to be expected really.
Also the Kappa Sump is quite shallow so doesn't get much airflow ......at the moment :)

Steve I like your homebrew one, very nicely made and if it does the job then even better.

cheers
Rob

[chris.richard]

Guage says 130 but the infared guage says 100 -110

Where do you take the infrared reading from?
Yes, I know there's a readout on the front of the thermometer. :rolleyes:

[roger001]

Which begs the question what range of oil temperatures is reccomended. with a laminova type cooler the oil temp will never be lower than water temp so I dont see 100 - 110 degrees a problem. my feeling is that the fiat guage/sender unit is not wildly accurate though have never had the chance to compare it with a reading from say the outside of the oil filter when hot.

The laminova type cooler is definately better than a air/oil cooler and I have been experimenting with different sized blanking plugs in the cooler (which divert a greater portion of the water away from the central water cannel and through the oil cooling channels). The medium size appears the best compromise.

I know its not wildly neat but my installation (pic in photo gallery) allows quick and easy access.

[strat6v]

My thoughts on restricting water flow through a laminova type cooler are that this would be done if the coolant flow was from a smaller bore pipe, say 18-20mm. The restrictors or plugs divert the lesser flow through an annular outer ring. Generally water would find the easiest flow path and tend to go straight down the middle if a restrictor wasn't used. Creating a larger area between the oil and water would give greater cooling, hence the different size units. Personally i would get the best water flow rate through the cooling system and then tailor the oil side size to suit that. Cuttiing/diverting coolant flow would then cause more overheating problems leading to higher oil temps.
Graphs are available for oil heat loss but unless you have flow rate data coupled with temp data for both the oil and water then its a guess it situation when choosing a cooler.

Mocal give a very rough idea on how these coolers compare to a normal type unit.

C43-90, 10 row cooler.
C43-180 13 row cooler
C43-330 25 row cooler.

Straight away if we fit an engine from a fwd into a mid engined position, it would increase heat produced by a fair bit so, if an alfa v6 has a 13 row cooler fitted as standard then by my reckoning a bigger cooler would be needed to give the same effect? (same with the water rad?) once moved into a mid engined position. My Gta lump had an air to air oil cooler about a foot square, probably about 20 rows so i've plumped for a c43-330. Hopefully it will be up to the job. If the cooler is a bit too efficient then the stat should keep it in check perhaps. :confused:

John.

[chris.richard]

Moving the engine from front to mid position will decrease cooling, not increase heat production.
If the oil and water radiators stay at the front with the same airflow, they won't need to change size. if the oil cooler is moved to the mid position where the airflow is less (our main problem) then either an increase in size, or forced airflow over it will be required to achieve the same cooling.

[chris.richard]

Something like this do?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/GWS-EDF40H-Electric-Ducted-Fan-Power-System_W0QQitemZ6054198547QQcategoryZ19164QQrdZ1QQ cmdZViewItem

[strat6v]

[QUOTE=strat6v]Better with that 164 heater blower, it would shift far more air.
You could fit a oil cooler two feet square in the engine bay, still wouldn't cool the oil much. What it needs is air flow through it. Sticking one near a body cutout won't do a great deal too unless air is ducted straight onto it. The turbo boys have found this out. Look at john Whalleys car and also the twins castrol car, also any pics of Neil Simons car. Fair enough, that is for intercoolers but the same principals apply.

Mocal suggest that oil temps greater than 110 degrees should be avoided and also the amount of heat dissipated by radiation is negligible. Guess sticking a unducted cooler in the engine bay is nearly a waste of time.

[Sando]

Where do you take the infrared reading from?
Yes, I know there's a readout on the front of the thermometer. :rolleyes:

Just on the sump itself with an infrared thermometer as soon as I stopped.
Guy croft recommends oil temps of less than 90 deg C!

At the other end of the scale I've read in other books that some endurance race cars run at 150c all day long with synthetic oils that stay in grade better at high temps. I think this is really the key.
With my old Vx engine I was always happy to use blogo standard mineral oils with regular changes as temps were always 90 - 100 and so didn't get too thin and lose too much pressure. However running this oil at 130c (on the monte run through the Sisteron stage for instance) I saw a significant drop in pressure so had to calm down ;) so as not to do any damage) ....... and I couldn't keep up with Bernard anyway... :rolleyes:

Hence now running Mobil 1 (HOW MUCH!!! :eek: ) just to make sure.

Bobster :cool:

[Sando]

......ps
forgot to say used to have 19 row cooler with a single fan on the Vx. (had room for two) this knocked 10deg off the oil temp when switched on. I agree with John though, must have cold air duct in and out to be effective.

Rob

[chris.richard]

Some questions Rob. :rolleyes:

What oil pressures do you get when warm? (If the guages are any where accurate) I use a high pressure warning switch and it comes on at idle with a warm engine.

What fans did you use on your oil filter?

Has anybody managed to construct a duct to attach to the rear side inlets, and if so have they got moulds I could borrow?

[strat6v]

Chris,
The best method would be to make a two part duct onto your cooler. Glass a bit on the inside of your rear body section and make up a nice folded sheet ally bit off the top of your cooler/chassis rail. Guessing that little chassis tube is right in the way? It would work even better if you could form a scoop on the outside, across to the side of the roof spoiler but that wouldn't look too good.

John.

[strat6v]

Theres me assuming you would have cut out the rear deck. :o

[Sando]

Some questions Rob. :rolleyes:

What oil pressures do you get when warm? (If the guages are any where accurate) I use a high pressure warning switch and it comes on at idle with a warm engine.

....Hard to say Chris cos as you say the guages just don't give enough accuracy. On tickover when hot it is low but doesn't light my standard OP switch which is 5 psI I believe so if yours is 20PSI then I'd guess you are somewhere between the two. Above tickover its up to 45 on the guage (in the mddle on mine) when ever I've looked before. Maybe a little lower when cruising on the motorway and the oils is hot

What fans did you use on your oil filter?

.......Fan was a12v industrial equipment cooling fan that just happened to fit a 19 row cooler! Looks a bit like a PC cooling fan but a bit bigger and blows harder. Think Auto do them to fit, with a cowling too......

Has anybody managed to construct a duct to attach to the rear side inlets, and if so have they got moulds I could borrow?

Cheers
Rob

[roger001]

We now have interest from 4 parties, one more needed to make this a goer, If we get 5 the price should come down to below £300.

Any takers........

[mudhut]

Come on chaps - you know you want to...

[Andrew Taylor]

I have fitted a Procomp Engineering heat exchanger to my Volumex, used to be reccomended by Guy Croft see page 165 in his book. Seems well made, simple, effective and good value.(He know reccomends aluminium one)
Phone number typo in book, it is 0121 350 3258 and they are pleasant and helpfull.

[SUSIT]

We now have interest from 4 parties, one more needed to make this a goer, If we get 5 the price should come down to below £300.

Any takers........

I may be tempted if I can be sure it fits my Allora and if the price is below the magic £300 ;), So anyone got dimensions please or better still a technical drawing :)

[roger001]

they will be made to the same dimensions as the Fiat x19 radiators, for hawk fitting the lower (outlet) pipe is angled upwards rather than downwards.

[mudhut]

Will I be able to have the oil cooler built-in and still benefit from the economy of scale? Haven't finally decided whether to go this route or not. Clearly it will cost more but don't fancy the one-off price!

[roger001]

the economy of scale is down to purchase of the cores which have to come from holland, you would be best to speak to chris smith directly, with regard variations. will PM his details