Strange

[tryphon]

1718 is currently for sale in France. I will not discuss the car's condition, however what is very strange is:
- The scocca number does not match the chassis number
- The scocca number corresponds to a Rosso Arancio car whereas the car in question seems to have been originally Giallo
- A different car with chassis number 1718 and the correct scocca number was sold to a French owner in 2003

There are rumors of "new" cars being made from scratch, identical to the original save very minor details. I have hints on who makes them and how many have been made.

Be wary, be very wary...

[chris.richard]

You mean somebody is making new chassis tubs identical to the original, then badging them as existing cars? Dodgy, very dodgy. The fraudulent aspect of replica building. I'm sure that everybody on this forum and in the Stratos Enthusiasts Club would condemn such dishonesty, which is presumably done to make money by fooling purchasers into believing they are buying, (and therefore pay lots more for) a car. Otherwise why not admit it's a replica and be proud of it?

[tryphon]

You mean somebody is making new chassis tubs identical to the original, then badging them as existing cars?

Some people have been tracing chassis numbers for a very long time. I am now begining to understand why or how this information can be used.
Weird transactions regarding Stradale parts are taking place.
The more I search the more I realize that something very fishy is happening these last two years.

[Swamprat33]

Ooooh, I love a mystery....

Seriously, though. This is not good news and can only harm the prestige and exclusiveness of the Stratos.

Please keep us informed of any developments.

Tim

[stratosphere]

Fraudulent behaviour is very bad and should be condemned immediatly!
This kind of acts hurts both the originals and replicas!

Everyone; If you have ANY hard facts upon this (No rumours) don't hesitate to publish these facts here!
Theres no integrety aspects to consider there!

If you have rumours that you can't subtantiate yourself, contact police or Interpol!
If you don't want to do it yourself, contact me and I'll do it for you.

Hard attitude from me but I do take these matter seriously!

[tryphon]

The example of 1718 seems too gross though I know my data is correct.
The site that publishes it states incorrect facts in order to explain the car's color (late production is their argument) but the real 1718 was completed on 26/8/74 and the car whose scocca number is advertised as 1718 was completed on 21/8/74 (wrongly reported in the Curami book as 10/2/75). Hence both are NOT late production. For reference my car was assembled on 20/4/75.

I will not give out any names on a public forum and I'm very reluctant to do it in private too as, although I'm sure that this is happening and I know how to identify "new" cars, I consider it dangerous territory as there's a lot of money involved.

This is only meant to be a warning on future buyers.

[chris.richard]

Is the Stratos Register and Thomas Popper aware of these goings on?

[KeithB]

Tryphon, I can understand your reluctance to get involved in a situation where there may be some very lucrative criminal activity going on. However, as I'm sure you're aware, any activity like this can end up damaging the whole of the replica car industry, and the owners of all such cars.

At the moment, Lancia seems to have an amazingly tolerant and even helpful attitude towards replica Stratos cars and their owners. For example, it's easy to get a set of genuine badges for the rear of the car, and I believe that Lancia authorises some replica parts as replacements for the real Stratos. This gives credibility to the kit manufacturers. And of course the cars are welcomed at all Lancia events.

However, if criminal activity starts to undermine the reputation of the replicas (even indirectly), Lancia may get more defensive, and may start to distance itself from the replicas. That would inevitably hurt the owners, the kit manufacturers, and indirectly, the SEC.

You seem to be very knowledgeable in this area. Please, if you have information that could be useful, try to find a way to get it to the appropriate authorities, so that they can investigate this and stop it if necessary. Maybe you could do it anonymously? I'm sure you would be improving the future for all Stratos replica owners and prospective owners.

[tryphon]

I think there must be very reputable people involved and I know that a very well known workshop is heavily involved.
The damage is of course not made to replicas but to originals. The situation is somewhat like the Porsche RS 2.7 only in the Porsche's case ordinary cars become RS 2.7.
All Stratos replicas (I have nothing against them) can be identified as such in less than 30 seconds. However the cars I am talikng about are identical in all aspects to the originals (save very minor details). I think they use chassis and scocca numbers that are unaccounted for.
I think I have already said more than enough for any willing person to investigate on its own.

[chris.richard]

The damage is of course not made to replicas but to originals.

Yes, I think that is the important point. A replica is a replica, and only has reflected glory. Owners of real originals are the ones being shafted by this. And the innocent purchasers of these frauds.

[GaryFitz]

I was very worried about this issue when I bought my car. The simple answer is to involve the Stratos Register in all of these types of transactions to ensure heritage and authenticity is guaranteed. I agree that some people who do not do this may be in for problems further down the road.

[colin artus]

Surely all the spare tubs were used up by the Jollyclub continuation series of cars which leaves only Gartrac as a source of new tubs - at a cost which precludes creating cars out of thin air. When you think of the cost of all the parts it doesn't make financial sense to create a Stradale and all the Gr4 cars with competition history are well known. Changing a Stradale to Gr4 and then assuming the id of a genuine competition car might attract the unscrupulous but as Tryphon's experience can attest this conversion isnt a cheap one to do properly.
Some may recall the scandal of fake (Favre?) 250 GTOs some 20 years ago, but even all that time ago the original cars were worth millions of $. The Lancia just isn't valuable enough for the effort and risk involved.

[tryphon]

I agree that some people who do not do this may be in for problems further down the road.
Don't trust anyone Gary, do your own research.

Some may recall the scandal of fake (Favre?) 250 GTOs some 20 years ago, but even all that time ago the original cars were worth millions of $. The Lancia just isn't valuable enough for the effort and risk involved.
What is costly to make from scatch Colin are the mechanical parts. You can't build an engine from scratch unless you count in millions. How's the situation for the Stratos?
All you people should know where to source everything else today...
It makes much more financial sense to manufacture a Stradale than a Gr.4 car and the market value difference does not justify making a Gr.4. Stradales go for at least 100K € whereas no race history perfect Gr.4 cars go for 200K €.