Lotus Cup 240

[GaryFitz]

I picked one of these up this weekend and you should really do yourself a favor and test drive one. They are very much like the Stratos to drive, but even with the supercharger, nowhere near as accelerative or as quick as my 24valve.

Main purpose is for me to have a car that I can learn mid engine handeling without findiing out the limits on the Stratos, I am hoping this will make me faster in the Stratos when it comes time to compete on tarmac, without needing to spend hours and hours in the Stratos or risking the car (I dont care about the Lotus but I care an awful lot about my STratos).

Cheers Gary

[tryphon]

Gary the Lotus is a completely different car.
20cm longer, 20cm more wheelbase, lighter engine, less torque, less power, less radical suspension.
It accelerates faster than any Gr.4 Stratos (even C ratio will never make 3.9sec 0-60) and it is much more behaved thant the Stratos for the reasons above.
The Stratos is in a completely different league handling-wise requires much more skill and concentration to drive at the limit than most other cars.

[GaryFitz]

kind of figured the Stratos would be tricker to handle so i thought this would be a good way to learn. I don't believe the acceleration figures for the Lotus. I have had to restrict myself to only using the first 4000RPM during the first 1000kms (now done). Next weekend I will be able to unleash the engine so we will see then, but at the moment, I would say the Stratos has the edge.

Any suggestions on a better way to learn to come to grips with the on limit handling of the Stratos?

[tryphon]

First this:
1637->Museum
Converted Stradale->Race

The secret to master the Stratos, from my point of view, is to always have in the back of your mind how quickly it can let go, especially on race tires.
Once it's gone, unless your real name is Munari, Waaldegard or Darniche, it's game over.
So it comes more down to experience of driving the car and knowing when it "might" let go than anything else. There's no use of driving it at the limit, you won't be competing against the clock anyway (who does?), and professional drivers, save Munari (but he was happy driving the 312P...), all have said they prefered racing more civilized cars.
Bottom line the Statos "shortcomings" are/were also its strenghts but in the right hands and situation.

My 2 cents.

[GaryFitz]

I am sure you are right, but I want to have a go anyway. There is no way that I am in the league of such fantastic drivers, just an amature who loves rallying. I will take your advise seriously and be cautious, but obviously finding the limit and pulling back will be that tricky bit

[tryphon]

Lift-off at the limit->unavoidable spin.
Best way to break conrodrs->lifting off above 8000RPM.

Yes you can have a go but at a dry tarmac event (Deutchland springs to mind).

Never lift-off if the car is going (requires pro skills, cat-like reflexes and a big heart), never shut the inlet suddenly above 8000 (requires neural work) and you should be OK.

P.S.
One last remark regarding the 24V engine, hear closely the engine noise and at the 1st strange noise cut the ignition immediately.

[colin artus]

From 'Autocar' 1982: Chequered Flag car ( TOL 80932 with 2v engine) 0 - 60 in 5.1 secs. 24v car (Grenville Griffiths) 4.6 secs.

The article is reproduced in Brooklands Books 'Lancia Stratos'

[Martin K]

Having driven rear engined (Davrian and Porsche) and mid engined (Stratos Replica) rally cars I would say that it will do no harm driving a Lotus to give you some idea of the different style you will need to adopt.

The first thing about all cars with most of their mass towards the rear is that turning into a corner and getting the power on afterwards are much different from a front engined cars. If you go into a corner too deep you will find that lose a lot of time, because you cannot get onto the power when still trying to turn as you will simply understeer off. You can only get on the power at the same rate as you are taking lock off, so acceleration has to be progressive rather than simply giving it a boot full and can only begin once you have passed the apex.

The second thing about cars with a low polar moment is that they change direction very quickly - that is their virtue and why all 'proper' racing cars are built that way. It is also why they can be a handfull when the car is rear wheel drive and 'traction limited' - i.e. it has more power than grip. So unless the car is pointing in a straight line when you jump on the throttle the tail will almost certainly brake away. This will happen in the Lotus if you are driving on a loose surface I am sure.

I would say that driving a single seater or sports racing car that is traction rather than power limited would give you a better understanding of these handling peculiarities. The style that the Stratos require it's driver to adopt is similar, in that what is required is finesse with the steering, the brakes and the throttle. This is more like flying and F15 than a 747 (not that I've flown either other than on my PC!!)

Steering a car on the throttle will always be easier in a car where the power is being used to unstick and swivel the light end of the car around the heavy end of the car, i.e. a typical front engined, rear wheel drive car. With weights arranged the other way round, if you do get the heavy part to swing in the direction you want it will be much harder to stop it, so gently is the word.

Certainly the Lotus in 'shop bought' condition will have many of these characteristics tamed as much as possible - the longer wheel base is one example, the suspension setup will be another, which will make it tend to understeer a lot more than a quick race car under fast road driving conditions and on track days etc. However, get it on the loose and you will find that even Lotus suspension engineers cannot change the laws of physics!

I suggest you find wide open spaces with good runoff areas to practice your skills. Obviously, to hone your kills on tarmac, track days at circuits can be useful, particularly if you try and make the circuit narrower in your mind by driving the inside line all the way (keeping out of trouble and other people's way of course). This makes all the corners much tighter and you will feel the problems of going in too fast or getting the power on too soon much more obviously and you can learn to adopt your braking/steering/accelerating to get round the corners as fast and as neat as possible without the fear of hitting trees, walls, hedges, shear drops, mountain sides, ditches and buildings that line many tarmac rally routes.

Finding somewhere to practice on the loose is always more difficult, but grassy fields are good! You will experience all the frustrations and problems of driving a powerful mid engined, rear wheel drive car on the loose at MUCH lower speeds on grass than in the forests - particularly if the grass is damp. Autotesting is one type of competition where you can practise your skills cheaply and have a lot of fun. If you really don't mind about the Lotus, maybe autocross would be a good idea too - but you will need to fit a cage and other safety items.

Once you have the Stratos finished, my advice is drive it lots. And lots. Ditch the Lotus and don't drive anything else 'competitively' until driving the Stratos becomes second nature. You will know when you have achieved that level when you can't find the controls for the wipers, indicators or demist in your road car!!

Good, luck, have fun

Martin

[rutthenut]

I agree with Martin that getting a feel for a mid-engined car using the Lotus has to be a start - there would be no point trying to bring skills of driving Mk.II Escorts, for instance, or even Porsche 911, when attempting to get the right style for Stratos driving.

If you get the DVD from the Roger Albert Clark, you will see that Steve Perez was certainly finding his Stratos something of a handful to drive.

Might I also dare to suggest that one other option could be to get a replica (kit) Stratos as the handling is apparently/allegedly very similar. Hey, you'd even have a few spare parts for the real ones that way!

Seriously though, I hope you do find a way to get the most out of your Stratos, without any expensive 'learning incidents' along the way.

Side note: there are two write-ups on the Stratos in the Autocar 'Given The Works' book, which is another book I like to recommend.

J.R.

[tryphon]

If you get the DVD from the Roger Albert Clark, you will see that Steve Perez was certainly finding his Stratos something of a handful to drive.

That car (1590) is not a Stratos anymore, modified (longer) wishbones, modified suspension attatchment points (higher), ProFlex, ...
Just look at how high the car stands...Not even Safari cars were that high.
Talk about polar moment.
Mr. Perez should have bought an Escort or a Mitsubishi.

[Chris J]

That car (1590) is not a Stratos anymore, modified (longer) wishbones, modified suspension attatchment points (higher), ProFlex, ...
Just look at how high the car stands...Not even Safari cars were that high.
Talk about polar moment.
Mr. Perez should have bought an Escort or a Mitsubishi.

I'm pretty sure lots of 'Historic' Escorts benefit from modern parts, and Steve Perez is right to at least put himself in a position to compete?

[tryphon]

Not really so. The question is not about "modern" parts. The questions is about modifying completely the suspension geometry and layout (but then again Mr. Perez might know better than Mike Parkes, who knows).
I pass on the ProFlex and other details, but what has been done to the suspension is more buggy-like than any Stratos ever to roll the face of the earth.

[David May]

[QUOTE]Best way to break conrods->lifting off above 8000RPM.

This might sound a bit frivolous (and off thread) but how are you supposed to change gear if lifting off over 8000rpm will throw a rod? I had a similar thing in a 1960s workshop manual instructing not to disengage the clutch over 6500.

[Martin K]

...... or how do you slow down for that corner that's rapidly approaching? My guess is don't rev it over 7900.

[tryphon]

Ever heard of heal and toe? Left foot braking?
Now that's a candidate situation to use the above.

And in a Group 4 Statos you do not use the clutch.

[Chris J]

Not really so. The question is not about "modern" parts. The questions is about modifying completely the suspension geometry and layout (but then again Mr. Perez might know better than Mike Parkes, who knows).
I pass on the ProFlex and other details, but what has been done to the suspension is more buggy-like than any Stratos ever to roll the face of the earth.

I'm with you Tryphon, when it comes to being able to see these historic cars perform exactly as they did in period, but in reality it doesn't always happen that way. I'll take your word for it that this Stratos isn't all it should be in the suspension department but there are two good reasons how Steve Perez might get away with this kind of thing. (If that's the case?).

One is that there isn't that much knowledge among the scutineers as to what a Stratos should and shouldn't have in this country. The general rally enthusiast knows even less.

The other reason is that it would take an awful lot to turn away the only Stratos entered in a particular event. I mean, everyone wants to see it perform don't they?

The thing is, Steve Perez's Stratos isn't trouncing all the opposition in Post Historic Rallying at the moment, and I doubt there'd be a question as to it's eligability even if it was?

[tryphon]

One is that there isn't that much knowledge among the scutineers as to what a Stratos should and shouldn't have in this country. The general rally enthusiast knows even less.

One more reason not to do such things to a car that people have little or no reference of.
If spectators come to see a Stratos competing this is what they should see, not some kind of masquerade, if Mr. Perez finds that all these "mods" are necessary to have a "competitive" car then he should probably be looking to something more "appropriate" requiring less extensive "mods" to be "competitive".
He would be saving himself money, trouble, would be preserving a heritage and would grant spectators with something authentic to chew on.

[SUSIT]

One more reason not to do such things to a car that people have little or no reference of.
If spectators come to see a Stratos competing this is what they should see, not some kind of masquerade, if Mr. Perez finds that all these "mods" are necessary to have a "competitive" car then he should probably be looking to something more "appropriate" requiring less extensive "mods" to be "competitive".
He would be saving himself money, trouble, would be preserving a heritage and would grant spectators with something authentic to chew on.


Sorry young man we each are due our own views but yours seem very narrow minded.
At last we get to see a Stratos back in action I and hundreds of other motorsport nuts will care not twoo hoots that its been messed with. He is out there doing it while you seem too scared to even stick your car on a trailer and bring it a few hundred miles. I appreciate the time effort and money that you have spent but for what? However I respect that is your choice and should not be saying this on a public forum but you continue to belittle in public those that dont conform to the way you think a Stratos owner should behave. Please leave the man alone and let us enjoy the sight and sound of his car in peace
Stephen Struthers

[tryphon]

You say this is a forum, correct? The etymology of the word relates it to "marketplace", "exchange". We are therefore exchanging ideas.
I "exchanged" mine and you raise yourself to a kind of tutor telling me what I can and cannot say?
Surely democracy and openmindness are words you should look up in the dictionary.

On another subject, I think the Mona Lisa faded colors should be a bit brighter. Current acrylic paints would clearly be up to the task...

[SUSIT]

I have said all I am going to say on the public forum but I am happy to have a debate you can pm me or email me at any time young man.
Have a nice day

Stephen Struthers

[catswhiskers]

Mr. Perez should have bought an Escort or a Mitsubishi.

It seems to me we've been here before a few months ago with, I suspect a similar outcome. Yes I dont think anyone would argue that the forum is a method of exchanging ideas but the above statement comes across (to me at least ) as a direct criticism of Steve Perez. :mad:
I think you will find that he has been there with the escorts and shown he is more than capable of winning many times. :rolleyes: He chooses now to spend his time, money and energy doing something different and deserves our support for being out there showing the Stratos in competition again.
Keep the exchange of stimulating ideas flowing on here but leave the scathing criticism to yourself, please.

Mick