Limited Slip Diffs

[guy mayers]

Has anyone got any experience with this manufacturer? Demon Tweeks list prices from £420 plus VAT but that allows their considerable margin. Price ought to be cheaper from the importer and teh 164 is listed.

http://www.kaazuk.com/products.php

Guy

[richard hall]

i spoke with co or sport who run the gp n mitshibishi team in the uk about 6mts ago,they had just advertised in motorsport news as the uk distributor and quoted me around £650 so maybe not a bad price,or if we could put a deal together 5-10 units they might give some discount.anyone interested ? Quafe also quoted around £1000 but would only make if 5+ were ordered

[GaryFitz]

I use them in my Datsun 240z rally car for select events and I have never had a problem. They are both lighter, stronger, and better balanced than the standard Nissmo units from that era. From my expereince I would recommend them. Cheers Gary

[chris.richard]

Demon Tweeks list prices from £420 plus VAT

Certainly cheaper than the £800+ for Gripper Diffs.

[strat6v]

consortium purchase?

[chris.richard]

consortium purchase?
Got this email back from them today:-

Hi Chris

Thanks for getting in touch.

The LSD unit for the Alfa 3 litre 164 is DBA2510 and is 1.5 way. The lead
time on these units is normally 10 days. I just need to check the latest
price for you, I should be able to get back to you tomorrow with a firm
quote.

Incidentally I notice that we have had 4 enquiries for this unit today. If
you are a member of a forum or club and would like to put in a group buy for
a number of units, we may able to offer you a small discount.

This Kaaz LSD has 12 large plates inside and is a very strong unit. They
come by default with full lock, although if you would prefer less lock, we
can adjust the units for you.

Please note, the LSD comes with 2 litres of Kaaz LSD oil, so you will need
to purchase more oil. We supply both Kaaz LSD oil and Miller Oils LSD oil.

Best regards

Karl

XS-Speed Ltd.

[Swamprat33]

Hmmm, sounds tasty. Would be interested if we can get them for £400-£500 each.

Tim

[strat6v]

me too. :)

[richard hall]

i would be ready for 1

[Swamprat33]

Errrr, what do they do again? ;) :D :p

[strat6v]

Make you look like a better driver Tim :D May help with that sideways problem your car has on keith b's avatar ;)

[chris.richard]

Latest email. Sounds like you should buy from Demon Theives if they honour that price. :cool:

The LSD will cost £697.87 + VAT + p&p (£12).



Unfortunately, I've checked and these are on back order, so from point of order they would take 5 weeks to get to you, so my apologies for that.



Best regards



Karl

XS-Speed Ltd.

[guy mayers]

Demon Theives prices are "from" so expect a higher price than Karl quoted... Better to get a consortium bulk order together and get a significant reduction? Anyone know how the speedo drive works inside the diff? Is a slippy diff likely to lose the drive to it?
Guy

[chris.richard]

No it shouldn't, at least my Gripper Diff didn't. The odometer gear mounted onto the diff casing as per the original.

[guy mayers]

I've asked Karl to quote prices for a consortium of 5 and of 10 to see what sort of a difference this makes to the order. Then I guess we'd have to see how many people actually wanted to put hands in pockets at this time of the year! Not sure I want to yet!
Guy

[Swamprat33]

I doubt if I could right now.
I have to collect my 'new' engine from Roger soon, then get a DTA ECU, elec water pump, and a load more stuff.

Dont think I'll be in a position to buy an LSD for a while, not at £800 or so anyway.

Tim

[SUSIT]

No it shouldn't, at least my Gripper Diff didn't. The odometer gear mounted onto the diff casing as per the original.


Thats Strange Chris, I had to loose my speedo drive for my diff, hence the Stack tacho + speedo :confused:

[chris.richard]

Is yours a Gripper Steve?

[rutthenut]

I got the same reply as Chris, in response to my request to the Kaaz UK contacts: xs-speed

Issue about speedo ring drive from the crown-wheel would be a major issue though. I wasn't sure if Gripper diffs worked with that or not (early comments indicated it might not, but maybe they re-engineered the outer part to leave the required clearance).

I assume that someone has sent a further enquiry about the speedo drive? Don't want to hit them with repeated copies of the same email...

Of course, being able to pay for the item is the next thing - Xmas is not a good time for additional expense. And then getting it fitted to the transmission.

Cheers all,

[rutthenut]

Besides Gripper diffs, which are a known item on the Strat kits (Dave W?), Quaife do list a fitment, but I don't know if they have ever supplied (they want minimum order numbers). I think AHM may have used Quaife before, so might have contacts there.

Other discussions have considered using the Fiat Coupe viscous unit - possibly not best suited for competition use, but I should think really good for road use on a Stratos replica (car does have good grip to start with, so lsd shouldn't have a lot to do unless on poor surfaces or hitting hairpins with lots of welly).

Different units have been sourced over time too, but price is often a major consideration. A consortium deal could certainly help in that respect, but would still need enough people able to stump up the required sums in good time.

[SUSIT]

Is yours a Gripper Steve?

As far as I can identify it is Chris, failing that its a one off on a very close design as a gripper.
I dont think Dave W had a speedo drive fitted, Dave? Not difficult to get round just added expense.

[STR470S]

Here's a pic of my Gripper diff - I've circled the cut-out where the plastic speedo gear fits. Maybe they added this on later batches.

[rutthenut]

Just done a quick forum search, these other topics discuss diffs too:

http://www.stratossupersite.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1423
http://www.stratossupersite.com/forum/showthread.php?t=320
http://www.stratossupersite.com/forum/showthread.php?t=920
http://www.stratossupersite.com/forum/showthread.php?t=742

[Martin K]

Just for information.

We originally tried to get a diff via Mike Buckler at Rusper/Gatwick Alfa as he said he could get them from Italy. When it didn't materialise in time, we had an LSD supplied by Avanti International Motorsport - 01458 446517.
It's for a Thema box but the diff is the same design (I am led to believe).

No cheaper than the cheaper ones mentioned here but less expensive than a Quaife unit. Maybe they would consider a discount on a bulk purchase however.

[guy mayers]

Answer on the discount front!

Hi Guy

Sorry for the name mix up when I emailed you!

The group buy can definitely be sorted out. We haven't got much margin on
these because I've already dropped the price to make them more comparable
with the Quaife (They're normally £750). However...

1 to 3 Kaaz 1.5 Way LSDs: £697.87 + VAT + p&p
4 to 7 Kaaz 1.5 Way LSDs: £657.87 + VAT + p&p
8+ Kaaz 1.5 Way LSDs: £627.87 + VAT + p&p

To get the discounts, we'll need cheque payment.

Best regards

Karl

[PANOS]

I want one too, if it can be fitted to the Thema 5-speed box (same as ALFA???) and the price is right...

CIAO PANOS

[rutthenut]

Individual P&P cost was quoted at £12 per unit, and if sent to fulfil a group purchase, I guess that would be the same (sent to individual addresses).

So total costs would be £834.10, £787.10 or £751.85 according to order volume.
That is if P&P added before VAT calculation, so could be *slightly* less than that.

Since this is the festive - aka expensive - season, I guess that any consortium deal would probably have to wait for the new year.

To try and find out if there is any/enough interest in this, I'll start a poll in the forum for people to express any interest. That at least gives an idea of feasibility.

[richard hall]

i no its a short time into the new year and lots to pay for,but looking back at the price of the kaaz lsd is there anyone ready to order?

[JohnB_SPY8808053]

Just wanted to toss in my two cents. The rally guys here in the states seem to think Kaaz makes a pretty good diff. I've had a friend I trust in these matters reccomend them over the Quaif units.

John B.

[KeithB]

Make you look like a better driver Tim :D May help with that sideways problem your car has on keith b's avatar ;)

ROFLMAO! :D

[carlsberg]

please keep me informed of any developments on the diff front.
I am interested in one as I intend to use my car for motorsport, and
the more power i can actually get down onto the road the better

chris

[Steve Strain]

Hi Guys

Does anyone know about this type of kit?

http://www.phantomgrip.com

It is supposed to convert a normal diff to LSD.

The site mentions Alfa FWD but not specifically 164.

Any advice? Is it worth persuing given the price? - could be easy enough for the novice to fit and an alternative to quaif and gripper

Thanks

Steve

[rutthenut]

Phantom Grip? Wouldn't trust it (IMHO). No scientific reason for that comment though, but the part doesn't seem too clever to me. Does it use 'snake oil' as a lubricant? Or is it really just a locker across the diff cage? And could you really fit that onto a 164 diff?

Seriously though, there have been many, many, many messages in this forum that discuss limited slip differentials for the Alfa 164 transaxle. At the end of the day, the Gripper unit has been tried and tested on many of the Stratos replicas. There are/were some costly alternatives from Italy - not sure of the supplier though. I don't think any in here have used the Quaife unit as the minimum order quantity hasn't been resolved. The same comment applies for the more recently-discussed Kaaz units. The Fiat visco-drive diff could possibly be retro-fitted, but I don't think any Strat kits have tried this (questions on space around diff, central driveshaft and exhaust manifolding)

It does seem as though using any unit that is so far untried in the Alfa transaxle is just lining up for new problems. Even if the slippy-diff component works just fine, it is getting it into the case, onto the crownwheel, and keeping the speedo drive that usually requires the extra effort and cost. Dave Watson paid the tooling/development cost for Gripper LSDs, and others have benefitted from availability of these parts that are known to work.

Why try something else? I really doubt it would work out much, if at all, cheaper.

[rutthenut]

Anyone currently considering purchase of an LSD for their Alfa-engined Stratos replica?

If one (or two) can be available quickly, I could be interested in joining others for a discount price...

[strat6v]

Q2 going in my six speeder so can't add to your list John, Sorry :o

[rutthenut]

Info about Gripper Diffs from the manufacturer's site, here:
http://www.racecar.co.uk/gripper/

Depending on lead time, I might be making an order real soon.
Possibility of a discount if ordering more than one.

Any takers?

[dicky]

i would be interested in purchasing a diff now and would like to change cwp ,is there a supplier?

richard

[jadefarms]

Yes I could be interested, if you can obtain a price.
:)
Struan

[rutthenut]

I hope to get a price - and lead time - for the diff units tomorrow (Weds).
Price generally listed at around £700 - £750 for the Gripper diff, but that probably needs VAT on top, plus delivery charges. If lucky, subtract a small volume discount!

Not sure where to recommend for alternative CWP sets for the gearbox.

Mine has a 2-litre diff ratio fitted in the (12v) 3-litre transaxle. Think that's the same ratio as in the 24v 3-litre unit.

My gearbox was rebuilt by Cloverleaf Transmissions, many years back, and they put in the alternative diff ratio at the time.

People who can [probably] help with gearbox/diff rebuilds include:

http://www.ahmotorsports.co.uk/index2.htm
http://www.k-and-lautos.co.uk/frames.htm
http://www.auto-integrale.co.uk/
http://www.rusperalfaromeo.co.uk/
http://www.monzasport.com/

And others...

[rutthenut]

Q2 going in my six speeder

Any more info on this viscous diff unit?

Found the following, which does say it isn't available (from Alfa) in the 3.2 V6.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/firstdrives/204134/alfa_romeo_gt_q2.html

[strat6v]

You are right John, It's not a standard fitment but loads of GTA pilots on the Alfaowner forum have had them installed. The diff isn't a viscous unit, but a torsen type, similar to the Quaife ATB (automatic torque biasing)

The standard open diffs in the GTA's fail alarmingly regular. the Q2 is the best fix. Seemingly 'Q2'. is an upgrade package

Have a look on the alfaowner forum. apologies now for the long thread. :)

think Adie sells them too. :)

£250 ish inc vat at the alfa dealer!! :cool:

[rutthenut]

the £250 is inc vat!

Now that sounds like a great deal.

And I [personally] think that Torsen-type diffs are probably better than viscous ones (although the latter may be better on lower-powered fwd road cars).

Alfa Owner article describing this unit (on 166/GT boxes, anyway), here (http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/tuning-and-upgrades/65400-retrofitting-a-q2-to-an-existing-alfa.html)

Important bit follows - makes a six-speeder more sensible for some, after all

The Q2 cannot be fitted onto Alfas with 5-speed gearboxes and that includes all TS/JTS models, as well a V6TB engined models with 5-speed gearboxes. This is because the "Fiat" transmission's ring gear is larger in dia. than the "Alfa" (V6/JTD) one, so they are not interchangeable.

An exception is the later V6TB engined models with 6-speed gearboxes, that have an "Alfa" transmission. Also in 5-speed models the 6-speed transmission can be retrofitted, along with the Q2 of course. It appears that the bellhousing pattern is the same in 5-speed and 6-speed models in V6TBs.


Off-topic a bit, but found info on 164 gearbox/diff ratios on bbforum:

164 3.0 12v,
1. 3,50
2. 2,18
3. 1,52
4. 1,16
5. 0,92
diff 3,11

164 3.0 24 V
1. 3,75
2. 2,18
3. 1,52
4. 1,16
5. 0,92
diff 3,41

[strat6v]

The Q2 doesn't fit the 164 box unfortunately :( only the later six speeders.

Thanks for the link John ;)

[Sando]

Don't forget the 6 speed is cable change, unless you want to make yourself a new linkage........eh JH :cool:

Bobsta

[rutthenut]

Don't forget the 6 speed is cable change, unless you want to make yourself a new linkage...

Well, I don't know if it will be a retrofit option, but I do know GH is putting together a demo car that has the GTA V6 in it, which has that setup.

Car should be present at the Donington show, as a rolling chassis of some sort, if you want to take a gander at it.

Other reason it might not be an 'upgrade' is that it has different engine/gearbox mounts. Oh, and the GTA has additional cats in the manifold/down-pipe area.
(reckon they'll get pretty toasty).

[Sando]

6 speed just needs a different Gearbox mount, but very easy one to make up to fit an existing V6 mount. It'll be interesting to see the Hawk linkage compared to what John H as done. :)

[rutthenut]

If anyone is interested in the Gripper Diff unit to fit their five-speed Alfa 164 transmission, Tom Seal has a few in stock right now.

Better still, he will do these at an offer price of £650 each for Strat guys, rather than the £700 list price (or the £750 from other suppliers). Don't know how many he has, or how long that offer will stand, but mine is on it's way :)

See http://www.racecar.co.uk/gripper/ for more details.

Edited to add, UK delivery is £10 and you have to add the dreaded VAT to the total price.

Edited again to note that if you need a speedo drive from the diff, you need to let him know this when placing your order.

[chris.richard]

That's a great price - I'm sure mine was over £800, direct from them.

[rutthenut]

That's a great price - I'm sure mine was over £800, direct from them.

Well, just added note about carriage and VAT, so total price is £775.50 by my maths. But still cheaper than it has been, or from suppliers rather than the manufacturers.

[rutthenut]

Note: If ordering a Gripper Diff for the 164 transmission, do remember to let them know if you want the diff to include a speedo drive. If so, the casing is modified to put in the required slots for the plastic gear. If you don't ask, you are likely to get a plain housing and no way to drive a speedo.

No need to ask how I found out :-o

But Tom is sorting this out for me asap. Just don't make assumptions.

[dicky]

have you fitted the gripper diff yet john? would like to no wot you think of it,did you change c w p ? is it a plate type diff?

richard

[rutthenut]

Not fitted yet, but will be in the transmission by Monday night.
Which leaves me Tuesday evening to refit the box into the car, with Wednesday booked for some bodywork repairs and Thursday MOT. Then take it to Zolder on Friday. Just gotta love this last-minute stuff :o

The unit has been fitted to a fair number of the Alfa-based Stratos replicas already, so those owners might comment. I did drive Dave Watson's car last year, which has this lsd fitted, and found it much more fun on tight bends (Abingdon course) with a more controllable rear end.

It is a plate-type diff, and does make the expected clonking noises during low speed maneuvres. The torsen-style diff isn't really available from Quaife (unless you want to order a batch of ten); the Q2 diff doesn't fit the 5-speed box; Kazaa plate-type diffs haven't yet been tried in the Alfa/Stratos setup, as far as I know; other diffs have been sourced from Italy (see earlier in this thread); not heard of anyone yet fitting the Fiat Coupe viscous diff to the Alfa/Strat combination either, but it isn't straightforward on the V6.

fyi: attached diagram is from http://www.racecar.co.uk/gripper/

[Chris J]

It is a plate-type diff, and does make the expected clonking noises during low speed maneuvres.

I seem to remember a French blue car making clonking noises on the Wales run!

[rutthenut]

Ia French blue car making clonking noises

But was he/it only doing 'low speed maneuvres'?

J.R.

[strat6v]

Low speed manouveres when the diff was clonking? sure was!!, can't remember it clonking on high speed ones though or the little airborne ones :eek:

That noise would drive you nuts in a road car. Once i'm up and running with a q2 i will let everybody know. don't hold your breath in anticipation though, that may be 2010 :D

[Chris J]

But was he/it only doing 'low speed maneuvres'?

J.R.

Yes John, but I did see him doing some high speed manuovres 'sans clonking' (but with a nice exhaust note) later on!

[rutthenut]

6 speed just needs a different Gearbox mount, but very easy one to make up to fit an existing V6 mount. It'll be interesting to see the Hawk linkage compared to what John H as done.

Well, you won't be able to see it on this photo, but I think the car is due to be at the Donington show (this weekend).

J.R.

[Chris J]

Are those the 335 section TB tyres on the back John?

'Can't see the outer wheel rim sticking out?

[rutthenut]

Are those the 335 section TB tyres on the back John?

Dunno Chris, I would expect so, but haven't seen the car myself...

[chris.richard]

Not fitted yet, but will be in the transmission by Monday night.


Hope you've got a selection of the shims ready then John. :eek:

[rutthenut]

Hope you've got a selection of the shims ready then John.

It's not me that's fitting it - getting that done at Auto Integrale...

[Sando]

Are those the 335 section TB tyres on the back John?

'Can't see the outer wheel rim sticking out?


Yes 29's :)
Had look at the car today, very very nice. LHD of course :cool:
Much more solidly mounted engine with different Gearbox mount, additional diff mount as can be seen on the photo and an additional brace on the bulkhead side mouting. Both of which I'm glad to see as these were areas I modified from the standard upgrade kit when I went over to the V6.

6 Speed gear linkage looked complex, but all very well engineered as you'd expect. It'll be a very special car when it's finished.

Bobster

[chris.richard]

I admit it, I'm missing something - who's car is it? Is it Gerry's latest - looks like a Hawk sticker on the offside rail.
No steady bar from the heads to the front frame?

[strat6v]

The engine steady on a gta is right in the back corner, look carefully and you can see it. Fixes onto the upper rear chassis corner :)

[rutthenut]

Is it Gerry's latest - looks like a Hawk sticker on the offside rail.

That's right - put together as a rolling chassis to begin with, good for shows. Dunno when it'll get turned into a full runner though. Bit drafty as it is!

[Chris J]

Yes 29's :)
Bobster

They don't look as much on the silly side of wide, as I expected. At least they'll stop the rims being kerbed as easy?

More stress and strain on the rear uprights etc. though?, and even more road noise?, and a bit more expensive?