Correct GP4 Spec?

[stratosphere]

As I'm on the crazy route (Hi everyone :) ) or hunt for all the bits and pieces for a correct replica of the Square Alitalia GP4
(Based on a Hawk/alfa GTA setup),
I would very much appreciate your help on specifications.

Can you guys please help in the correct spec and please correct me if my list is wrong.
Also if possible is there differencies between the Alitalia GP4 (apart from the obvious livery) from other GP4s?
I'm aware of, that there are a number of specifications as road cars were rebuilt to GP4 spec later.
My main interest is in the factory? built cars.

I will not include parts in this list that are the same as the Stradale nor obvious parts as wheels etc unless needed for clarification.

So heres my list:

Xterior:
Rear view mirrors: Vitaloni Californian (Inner the same as Stradale (Fiat 124))
On some cars: omitted boot lock (later replaced with hood pins??)
Front auxillery drive lights omitted (air intake for brakes instead) and square repeaters replaced with round (white) from alfa giulia spider? Grill mesh spec?
Roof antenna
NO Hood pins (came later hence all famous pics of Stratos without rear and sometimes even front sections)
Front lights are the same as Stradale (7" Carello) but the four other were Carello megalux (costs MEGA bucks if you can find any).
Any 7" lights are OK unless you read make.


Interior:
Five (5) Instruments: ??? Same as Stradele except for speedometer and rev?
Speedometer: ??
Revcounter: ??
Switches: Seven(7) Pull-type with green led in center ?????
White ignition cut off switch:??
Two (2) standard toggle switches: Any brand will do
Three (3) rheostat buttons: ??
One (1) Rubber covered push button reset ??
One (1) square battery warning light
Dual Halda, One trip meter one Speed pilot:??
Fuse holder: ???
Relay holders: ??
Gear knob: ???
Steering wheel: ??
Seats:???
Fire extinguisher: ??
No roof lining
Different door inner door coverings (Smooth and glossy?)

Structural/other:
Rollbars inside were 40mm (*2,5mm)
Smaller battery: ???
Different expansion bootle (Plastic) for cooling : Lancia beta early ??
Square big air box
Spare wheel the same as one front wheel
Head lamp motors omitted and replaced with solid bar so lights allways up:??
Floor NOT lowered (also this came later)
Steering arm replaced with one that had provisions for shim adjusting of bumpsteer etc..
Alot of different dampers and springs ofcourse (not obvious for the eye, or were they coulor coded as on modern rally cars?)
Uniballs?
Brakes?
All windows except front in plastic? (PC or PA??)

Specification of correct parts and tips of similar parts are most welcome

Luigi

[Swamprat33]

Hi Luigi, sounds like you have your work cut out trying to build a car that exact. May be cheaper and easier to buy a real one ;)

Good luck.

Tim

[chris.richard]

Hi Luigi, sounds like you have your work cut out trying to build a car that exact. May be cheaper and easier to buy a real one ;)

Good luck.

Tim

Well, easier anyway!! ;)

[tryphon]

Depending on year specifications change. Best bet ask for the homologation papers.

The original Gr.4 instruments are mechanical, as opposed to the electrical ones fitted on Stradales, and specific to the Gr.4 Stratos. A set of 7 instuments will set you back around 5K euros.
There are 3 rheostats, 6 pull switches, 2 push buttons, 2 toggle switches, 2 square lights and the heat slider (same as Stradale).
The whole electrical beam is specific.
Steering same as Stradale.
Custom wooden gearknob.
Bordigari seats.
Same inner door cards with map holder and Avanti light on the passenger side.

Rollbars same as Stradale.
Dry battery.
Airbox depends on type/year.
You're right about the light motors.
Floor depends on car but usually not lowered.
Steering arms have extension for adjustable ratio.
Springs color coded Bilstein dampers.
Full uniball, all front suspension arms are different.
Early works Gr.4 used same rear suspension as Stradale, later different uprights and lower wishbone.
Depending on year ATE 2 pot single cast front calipers, Stradale rears or Lockheed 4 pots front rear bigger disks.

There's a lot more of course but I would be killed if I went into more details. Research, look into details and you will find.

[Sptwoman]

What "position" are the GP4 pull switches? 2 or 3 position or a mixture? Also, what does each one do?

[tryphon]

2 positions on-off.
Leftmost: Luci posizione
Below water temperature: Ventole
Below Benzina: Contatto
Then 4 switches on a vertical line, starting from the bottom:
Riscaldamento
Retro
Luci emergenza
Fari Supplementari

Then you have the 2 position lever switch: Pompe Benzina

That's it for the siwtches.

[Sptwoman]

Thanks Tryphon, so all the switches are 2 position. Now all I require is to brush up on my Italian!!

[Sptwoman]

Can someone confirm that the set up of my GP4 dash is “OK”? Also fill in the holes.....

1. Main lights switch. How are the side lights switched?
2. Rheostat for gauges.
3. Ventole – Impellers. Is this referring to the rad fans?
4. Contatto – contact. Is this when you hit something?
5. Is this a push button? For what?
6. Pompe Benzina – Fuel pumps. Provide power to the pumps(s)
7. Warning light for handbrake?
8. Riscaldamento – heating Demister
9. Retro – back. Back what?
10. Luci emergenza - Hazard lights
11. Fari Supplementari- supplementary lights.
12. Any ideas??
13 & 14. Map lights.

[pimms]

Can someone confirm that the set up of my GP4 dash is “OK”? Also fill in the holes.....

1. Main lights switch. How are the side lights switched?
2. Rheostat for gauges.
3. Ventole – Impellers. Is this referring to the rad fans?
4. Contatto – contact. Is this when you hit something?
5. Is this a push button? For what?
6. Pompe Benzina – Fuel pumps. Provide power to the pumps(s)
7. Warning light for handbrake?
8. Riscaldamento – heating Demister
9. Retro – back. Back what?
10. Luci emergenza - Hazard lights
11. Fari Supplementari- supplementary lights.
12. Any ideas??
13 & 14. Map lights.

I am also trying to figure out the italian with the help of a translation book but its dificult. Not all Gr 4 cars have the same lay out or amount of swiches looking at the differnt pictures available.
I could be wrong but this is my idea, please correct e if i'm wrong :o :

1 "Luci pozizione" : side lights? ( postion lights)? I am going to make this a three position switch with also main lights on it ( dip beam ?)
2 "reost. luci strumenti" : rheostat for instruments
3 "ventole" : maybe overrride for the fans?
4 "contatto": contact, as the Gr 4 has no ignition key ?
5 "avviamento" : starter push button
6 "" pompa benzina" : fuel pimps, with coice of "S" ( sinistra = left ) and "D" ( destra = right )
7 handbrake warning light
8 "vent. risc." or "riscaldamento" : fan for heater
9 "luci retro" : back up lights??
10 "fari prof." or "fari suppl." : prof maybe as profondo = deep = spot lamps? and suppl. maybe as supplemantari = extra = wide beam?
11 "fari emerg." : hazard lights
12 maybe "fari nebbia" : fog lights ?
13 & 14 "reost. crono-note" : rheostat for Halda and map light ?
also under heater slider the knob for brake balance; "post".---ant." , "post." as "postiriore" = behind and "ant." as "anteriore" = front

[chris.richard]

6 "" pompa benzina" : fuel pimps,

Surely not!! :D

[Chris J]

Surely not!! :D

Oh I don't know, Chris?

Sorry, this is another of those 'carp' moments...

[pimms]

Oh I don't know, Chris?

Sorry, this is another of those 'carp' moments...


Must be my name, pim ps :D :o ;)

[pimms]

12 maybe "fari nebbia" : fog lights ?


I've also seen pictures with the word "scorta" but have no idea what that means, anyone?

[Chris J]

I've also seen pictures with the word "scorta" but have no idea what that means, anyone?

The quicky translation is 'supply'.

[catswhiskers]

Oh I don't know, Chris?

Sorry, this is another of those 'carp' moments...


Brilliant Chris. Another superb interpretation. :D :D :D

Mick

[Sptwoman]

I'm impressed. I used this site (http://babelfish.altavista.com/) for translations.
I've set up an aux switch with a label "Carpa" for those certain moments you know will happen!!

[GaryFitz]

Well I can tell you that mine is close to this but not quite the same, in the interests of disclosure I will take a photo of the dash and post it, you guys can then do the positioning and switch analysis. All labels are in Italian of course and teh information provided by Tyhoon is obviously accurate. I assume the differences are that mine is an earlier car, and was then rebuilt by both Checkered Flag and then again in Italy....so what I cannot guarantee is that my layout is 100% original as it left the factory team, but it is definately where it evolved to over it's life.

[stratosphere]

Hi

There seem to be an excellent GP4 instrument layout scheme in (tiny) pictures above.
Can someone kind please send me a high resolution copy of that one?

Thanks Luigi

[Sptwoman]

Luigi, You have a PM.

[JohnB_SPY8808053]

It's good to know someone's putting that Visio drawing to good use. I don't think that the switches were marked correctly on it so thanks for posting the correct assignments. I'll correct them on the drawing as soon as I get a chance.

John B.

[JohnB_SPY8808053]

As for the G4 dash drawing...

You can download the Visio 2002 drawing here:
http://members.cox.net/squadracorse/JohnsG4StratosDash_01.vsd

Or a high-rez image of the same file here:
http://members.cox.net/squadracorse/JohnsG4StratosDash_01.gif

I haven't made any changes to the switch labels yet because I want to be sure they're right before I do.

John B.

[stratosphere]

Beautiful, many thanks

Luigi

[Sptwoman]

John, The drawing's been very useful and I'm now happy with all the switches as well. The only mods I've done are, removed the boost and fuel pressure gauges and replaced them with a cockpit pro large mechanical oil temp gauge to compliment the mechanical oil pressure and water temp. I've seen this on a pic that you provided earlier. Also, I've used a 3 way pull switch for my side / headlights.
Thanks again,
Allen

[Sptwoman]

The only thing that's still puzzling is where do all the warning lights fit. None of my gauges come with the usual generic ones. Hazards, indicators, oil, brake fluid level, ignition etc..... Any ideas?
The pic below shows some rather large ones!!!

[tryphon]

This picture is not 100% correct (chassis 1718).
There are "spylights" for indicators (green) and high beam (blue) on the left side before the Luci Posizione pull switch.
Another spylight is above the Ventole pull switch (red) for the alternator.
The handbrake warning light of the Stradale (square) is used as a low oil pressure light.

[Chris J]

I've got one of those green coloured click front to back winders (as seen in the above photo) if anyone wants to make me an offer I can't refuse?

I've still got a bias box, but I can't see me needing to adjust it half way down the road?!

[tryphon]

Correct spylights and F/R brake proportioning button.

[Sptwoman]

Nearly there...

[Sptwoman]

Just the VDO fuel gauge to sort. Gerry's supplied VDO sender reads 80ohms empty and zero when full.........difficult to find :(

[tryphon]

Your dash is not high enough. You should have located further away from the bulkhead, closer to the driver I guess to have more clearance. It's too cramped.

[Sptwoman]

Sorry Tryphon, I'm a little confused!! It'll be higher once it's fitted in the car....photo was taken on the floor you see!! It was taken in the conservatory, so possibly too far away from the bulkhead? Not sure on the reference to the cramped!!

[tryphon]

Look at the pictures of other dashboards. For instance your pull switches are too close together (no space to put labels between them) yet they cover the whole height, edge to edge.

[JohnB_SPY8808053]

I remember reading someplace that it was a copy of an original G4 dash but I've always thought the Hawk G4 dash was shorter. It also has the rounded lower edge so you lose some useable height there too. I don't think you can get the switch placement more exact without fabricating a new dash face yourself.

Just my .02,

John B.

[John]

The rounded bottom edge for the dash is to gain SVA compliance I presume?I think a 19mm radius is required.

[Sptwoman]

JohnB, I'm happy with your design. I've tweaked it slightly but I've used VDO gauges as well. I'd hope the modern gauges will also be a little more reliable! It may look a little cluttered but that's the way it is. Just like my garage!!

John, I think the radius at the bottom is to cover SVA. I'lll also need to temporary replace the pull switches as well!!

[John]

Difficult to tell from the photos, but you are allowed a zone of (I think) 150mm outside the steering wheel in which anything contactable by the ball is exempt. If your pull switches are inside that then you should be OK. That is unless the switches are not compliant for some other reason, other than projection......

[Sptwoman]

Yes there is an area extending from the steering wheel which is excluded. I think it is 150mm. I did think of fitting a 20" wheel to cover the area involved :rolleyes:

[JohnB_SPY8808053]

I was just thinking that you could probably buy the Hawk G4 dash kit and then remake the dash face piece out of aluminum. This would let you increase the height (allowing more space between the switches) and you could still round the lower edge for SVA compliance.

Another idea I had regarding the gauges would be to use a really good printer (like a HP Photosmart maybe) to print off Veglia gauge faces that would fit on the VDO gauges.

John B.

[pimms]

Just the VDO fuel gauge to sort. Gerry's supplied VDO sender reads 80ohms empty and zero when full.........difficult to find :(

Hi Allen,

I'm starting with my G4 dash soon, what type of gauges did you use, the ones next to youre tacho seem larger than the ones on the left of youre dash, what diameter are they.
What type of speedo do you use and how is it connected: mechanical or electric?

Thanks, regards,

[Sptwoman]

Hi Pim,

They are mostly VDO gauges. Mostly bought from the USA via ebay.com.
The tach is their 5" model. The oil/water pressure/temp gauges are the Cockpit Pro range with a 2 5/8" diameter and are only sold in the USA I believe. They're all mechanical type. The ammeter and fuel gauges are the usual 58mm electrical type.
I'm still unsure of the speedo. I think I'll be using an electrical type. I can use the existing gearbox electrical sender unit so I'm looking to re-house the 164 speedo into a smaller housing..
I'm still not happy with the depth of the dash :( Things do look a little crampted and the switch contacts at the back are close to each other. I'm thinking of what John wrote. I just may have the thing reworked in ali to the original depth.... If only I knew what the original depth was :confused: I've estimated it to be around 20cms, an additional 2.5cms............ any ideas??

[Swamprat33]

Guy or Tryphon would be your best bet for that info.

[guy mayers]

Guy or Tryphon would be your best bet for that info.

Tryphon would be your best bet for that info. :) :)

Guy

[tryphon]

I'll measure this week and let you know.

[Sptwoman]

Tryphon, Thanks for the original advice. I'll be making a mould to produce a MK2 facia so any detailed pics would be useful, especially the end profiles...

[pimms]

I'm still not happy with the depth of the dash :( Things do look a little crampted and the switch contacts at the back are close to each other. I'm thinking of what John wrote. I just may have the thing reworked in ali to the original depth.... If only I knew what the original depth was :confused: I've estimated it to be around 20cms, an additional 2.5cms............ any ideas??

I agree, layed out the switches and the stickers that go with it and there's not enough room. How about adding some glasfibre at the top?
Another Q: on the picture there is an edge,, on the stradale dash ther is not, do i remove the edge or does the window rest on this part :confused:

[guy mayers]

Pim, remove the return edge very carefully so that you are left with just the curved edge. Gerry puts this extension on to make the panel stiffer for transport and to ease the moulding process. The panel should then sit on top of the panel under the screen so that it almost looks like part of the tub. Glue it in place with sikaflex rather than screw it down.

Guy

[tryphon]

I'll measure this week and let you know.

Measurements of Group 4 dash are:
120cm length edge to edge
20cm height in the middle section

Hope this helps.

[Sptwoman]

Thanks Tryphon, That confirms my estimations and plans. Another mod to add to the list!!

[pimms]

Thanks Tryphon, That confirms my estimations and plans. Another mod to add to the list!!

I modified my Gr 4 dash by adding 1,5 cm in hight, must be enough to fit the decals between the pull switches ( 2.5 cm between them, decals are 2 cm high). By modifying the dash face i also had to modify the half moon part in which the top part slides! Some gauges stil have to be modified as are the chrome rings from the rheostats. The heater valve control still has "choke "on it, etc. But its nearly there.