16 Valve head for Twin Cam

[SUSIT]

This may be of interest to those running twin cams or wanting to build a 037 replica
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Guy-Croft-16V-Fiat-Lancia-Twin-Cam-TwinCam-Head_W0QQitemZ4591177553QQcategoryZ31352QQrdZ1QQcm dZViewItem

[mudhut]

I'd really like this but it will go for some very serious money. :(

Don't think it is a straight swap but don't have the GC book to check. Last GC head (8v)that came up I did bid for but didn't win even at £1k.

[strat6v]

You can get a 166 3.0 engine and 6 speed box, lowish miles plus all ancillaries for that! :eek:

[shaun]

I think the proper 16v heads are about 3000pounds new. You can fit the later 16v head with a bit of work, the inlet/exhaust ports are on opposite sides though.

For 1000pounds you could probably get a 12 v6, all the bits to fit it and a tank full of petrol to try it out.

[Chris J]

I think the 16v would be a nice conversion.

Enough power to rival any V6 and still have the handling advantage?
The power to weight ratio would actually be better.

It's easier to fit a head than an engine/gearbox/gearlinkage etc.

[Chris J]

'Wrong noise, I know, but you can't have everything?

[rutthenut]

Enough power to rival any V6 and still have the handling advantage?
The power to weight ratio would actually be better.

Not sure any of the I4-to-V6 guys have commented on any handling disadvantage, although I do feel there is a lot of weight quite high up in the engine bay with the V6 (never thrashed a four-pot to know otherwise).

Power-to-weight, yes. But look into the torque figures too.

(Speaking with a clearly biased opinion)

[Chris J]

Power-to-weight, yes. But look into the torque figures too.(Speaking with a clearly biased opinion)

I know there's always the attraction of the big capacity, and a V6 because the original had a V6, but the four cylinder cars DO have a lot going for them. The fact that so many people want to upgrade or build a V6 from the word go might make you think otherwise? Anyone with a four cylinder car shouldn't feel that they are a poor relative?

It's still not much car for a 2 litre to push along, and if you get 200bhp from a non turbo 16v, I think it would make a nice car? A 'Lancia' engine too.

[SUSIT]

I know there's always the attraction of the big capacity, and a V6 because the original had a V6, but the four cylinder cars DO have a lot going for them. The fact that so many people want to upgrade or build a V6 from the word go might make you think otherwise? Anyone with a four cylinder car shouldn't feel that they are a poor relative?

It's still not much car for a 2 litre to push along, and if you get 200bhp from a non turbo 16v, I think it would make a nice car? A 'Lancia' engine too.
In lots of ways I agree chris, I had fantastic fun at Abingdon with 110 bhp. Its all relative. You do what suits you best and enjoy the results :)

[guy mayers]

I'd really like this but it will go for some very serious money. :(

Don't think it is a straight swap but don't have the GC book to check. Last GC head (8v)that came up I did bid for but didn't win even at £1k.


Definately not a straight swap! You'll have to do the pistons as well or it'll all end in tears! (and 16 bent valves)
Guy

[rutthenut]

I'm not trying to say that the four-cylinder owners are poor relatives at all.

They have certainly been proven to go as quick as the rest if the driver wants to, in all but a few circumstances.

Just that the 200bhp VX engines still don't quite compare in terms of outright performance to the 200bhp V6.

The V6 certainly gives a lot of 'easier' grunt, whereas a four-pot car would need a bit more effort and commitment from the driver to make maximum progress. But being honest, that is rarely what is needed - enjoying the grip and handling with plenty of speed at hand (from either engine type) is what the car is about.

And after all, the original car had 2.4 litres, which is closer to 2000cc than it is to 2959. Albeit that I prefer the bigger capacity engine - perhaps I want that to help redress the power-to-weight issues of a heavier-than-average driver? ;)

[mudhut]

OK so the head went for a little bit over GBP800 - quite a lot less than I thought it would make. But no point buying it without all the other bits to make best use of it like cams, pistons and all the custom work needed to convert from an 8v set up - can't see any change from another GBP2k or more if I wanted to adapt my car.

Thinking about the twin cam engine, I've rather grown to like it as I've got to know it more intimately! Put my car back on the road towards end of last month with replacement engine but have to say that the car really needs a lot more grunt and more power than the 120-ish bhp standard engine (except Dellorto 45s and exhaust system) - it's no lightweight car. At least it is a small and light engine that I can work on and play with even if some tuning bits are pricey.

Suppose all this means long term I'll go Alfa but right now I'm enjoying the car as it is (once I get it MoT/taxed).

It might not make the right noise as a real one but mine certainly makes a hell of a noise - had a complaint from the council raised by a neighbour as a result of me running it for about an hour at a time mostly on idle on three successive days while I was filling the cooling system, flushing and synchronising the carbs :mad:

[shaun]

I am having complaints too. The glass in the house windows vibrates, annoying several people - I've only just got it running about right another few days of adjustments to go. Better go and get some putty as well, you never know.

I'm surprised that head sold for so little. I am still looking for a na 16 2L to play with, just to add to the 60 other projects.

Long live the 4 pot.

[Martin K]

John Day got just over 220 bhp at 8000 rpm from the 8 valve twincam engine in his Beta Coupe race car, and it was very tractable (though not really suitable as a road engine) as it had plenty of torque too. Obviously, but not as much as a V6 3 litre though.

To get the power out of the 16 valve head it would have to use high revs too, so the bottom end could become very expensive.

I think with 250 bhp readily available from a V6 24 valve Alfa I think they are hard to beat in terms of bucks for bhp.

Martin

[PANOS]

Light engine, big power (+torque)... anything between 200-500BHP, take your choice...
LANCIA 2L 4CYL 16V TURBO... Why is it only me that thinks that this is the best engine for the STRATOS...??? Do you all know something I don't...??? Come on then, let me in on it, before I spend a fortune on my conversion to turbo...!!!

CIAO PANOS

[Chris J]

I'm not trying to say that the four-cylinder owners are poor relatives at all.

I know you wouldn't say that John.

I'm just trying to sway anybody who might, and isn't as broad minded as you.

[CorseChris]

Light engine, big power (+torque)... anything between 200-500BHP, take your choice...
LANCIA 2L 4CYL 16V TURBO... Why is it only me that thinks that this is the best engine for the STRATOS...??? Do you all know something I don't...??? Come on then, let me in on it, before I spend a fortune on my conversion to turbo...!!!

CIAO PANOS

Go for it Panos - FWIW, I don't see anything wrong with a turbo motor at all, as long as you are happy you have all the usual heat and lag issues resolved (which it seems you have), then as you say, relatively light, massive torque, as much power as you want.

I can see the attraction of the V6 in terms of cheap power & torque as standard, the noise of course, and I suppose the 'originality' ticket as well up to a point...but then Lancia never put an Alfa engine in the original so it's tenuous. A turbo won't be as driveable as an aspirated engine and there are many many cases of similar (or even identical) cars where the turbo loses out on track to a nat asp making less power, but for the use you have in mind, I suspect you'll be onto a winner.

All this said, I'm about to remove a TC to fit a V6 in my Corse. But my TC is a 120bhp standard engine so isn't the best of the breed. I did pick up that 8V turbo the other week, with I'm not quite sure what in mind...but the Thema VIS is feeling a bit sluggish with only 155bhp :)

With a bit of hindsight, I might well have been looking at fitting an Audi 1.8 turbo engine in the car now. An easy 300bhp with no internal mods at all, just bigger (or more) injectors and some more boost.


...but the Alfa V6 is just so easy for cheap power up to a point. And for the turbo camp, low compression pistons, turbos and away you go with 350bhp and 350 ftlb at 12psi on an otherwise standard 12V engine.

Pays your money and takes your choice! ...but I don't think there is a right and wrong anywhere in this.

[STR470S]

Don’t worry Panos, you are not alone – I too have gone down the 4-pot turbo route!!

Mine is slightly different, in that, it has the 16 valve Thema/integrale head mounted on the Beta block, but the principle is the same. I have gone for a large chargecooler sitting on top of the gearbox, which gives fairly short runs for the turbo/plenum pipes, with a big pre-rad up the front.

I’m in the process of wiring up the ECU and fuel systems at the moment. Target is to get it running for the spring next year, so that it can make Abingdon – I’m sure I said that last year too!!

Assume you mean Mike at JMC Power – you should be in good hands – he certainly knows how to build a powerful engine.

I’ll keep you posted.

Cheers,
Chris

[rutthenut]

Reason I'm not so keen is because of heat dissipation problems, turbo lag and potential unreliability...

Using anti-lag electronics increases heat problems a lot.
Too much boost (or too poor cooling, incorrect mapping, poor fuel, etc) will make the engine a 'grenade'.

But whilst is running properly the power and torque would be an absolute hoot to drive!

[CHP]

I just wondered if someone tried a bored out version of the Alfa V6 in a stratos yet? Maybe something similar like the Autodelta 3.7 or even a compressor version? Or is the original Alfa V6 itself powerful enough?

[PANOS]

To CorseChris and STR470S, thanks for the comforting words...
The engines will be build for reliability and everyday driving and will not be fitted and run unless everything is perfect and all problems are solved...
Chris, this is a good sign that you know/know of Mike/JMC Power...How, where...???
I am qurious...???
I am doing the same things you are re. chargecooler etc.... What ECU are you using, because I have still to decide what to use... Motec 800/400 on down...

CIAO PANOS

[shaun]

Didn't realise these engines were so cheap:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Lancia-Delta-Integrale-16v-engine-for-rebuild-Fiat_W0QQitemZ4593216114QQcategoryZ100914QQrdZ1QQc mdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Lancia-Thema-2-Lt-Turbo16v_W0QQitemZ4591956510QQcategoryZ18186QQrdZ1 QQcmdZViewItem

[PANOS]

How do you think I got three of them Shaun...???
If I was in London now I would get those too...!!!
Unless somebody can get them for me for a small fee...??? Until I get there...??? Any takers...???

CIAO PANOS

[STR470S]

Panos,

I got in touch with Mike regarding uprated driveshafts that he was using on his Ritmo drag car. Not cheap, but he hasn't broken any yet. I think I will wait to see to see how much the standard ones will take.

ECU is Autronic from Australia like the Motec, a bit cheaper but has all the features I'm going to need - plus there is a local company that can map it. I would of thought it would be best to use whatever ECU Mike uses, as he has proven results + he can map yours to suit your car.

Let me know if there are any more details you require.

Cheers, Chris

[BETANUT]

Twink conversations always of interest to me..... It was Guy Croft who got the n/a John Day "Beta" engine into the 200BHP range originally, subsequently fettled by Barry Waterhouse a few years later and subsequently by John himself (he's still around, TNI I think). Strikes me that the Alfa V6 is a more "pure" engine to fit simply because of the wonderful V6 sound, but for ultimate power its probably still cheaper going the turbo 4 pot route, almost certainly a Delta/Thema based 16 valve job if you want to stick with a Fiat/Lancia engine.
I met a fella recently at a Ford (yes, I hang my head in shame - I was just visiting) track day at Crail, got talking Lancia (long story) he was telling me about someone running a Strat in northern England with a works spec Integrale engine (circa 300hp) with nitrous added....... anyone know who that belongs to?????

[SUSIT]

Glad to see your still inthe land of the living Hamish.

[BETANUT]

My man :D
Yes indeedy, still around and still breathing (just :rolleyes: ) - you changed your email address?

[SUSIT]

My man :D
Yes indeedy, still around and still breathing (just :rolleyes: ) - you changed your email address?

Only about 2 years ago will pm it to you :D

[rutthenut]

Or is the original Alfa V6 itself powerful enough?

Is it ever?

:)

[BETANUT]

Didn't realise these engines were so cheap:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Lancia-Delta-Integrale-16v-engine-for-rebuild-Fiat_W0QQitemZ4593216114QQcategoryZ100914QQrdZ1QQc mdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Lancia-Thema-2-Lt-Turbo16v_W0QQitemZ4591956510QQcategoryZ18186QQrdZ1 QQcmdZViewItem

Ahhhhh, but they're buggeringly expensive when they go wrong :mad:

[Martin K]

subsequently fettled by Barry Waterhouse a few years later and subsequently by John himself (he's still around, TNI I think)

GC had got just about 195bhp from the engine. John Day was working for Barry Waterhouse when he rebuilt the engine. Barry pointed out the importance of correcting the cam timing that GC had used to avoid the oversized valves hitting each other and came up with some other ideas, but John did the rebuild himself (Barry was not noted for getting his hands dirty).

Chucking away the treble valve springs fitted to the head by GC, which were way over the top, reduced the torque to turn the cam shaft enormously and Johns rebuild of the bottom end reduced the torque needed to turn it from 17 ft/lb to 8.5 ft/lb - thats 13bhp at 8200 rpm by itself!

Chucking away a GC inlet manifold helped too. We later had a new head done which should have given 230bhp plus - the flowbench showed it would - but it wouldn't work with the cams that GC had fitted and John couldn't afford the new billet cams required or cam box machining that would be necessary to get the required lift, so the engine never made more than a little over 220bhp.

I know all this because I first met John in 1990 and was around for the last two years of the Beta's racing career as a sponsor, so I was heavily involved in the John's racing at the end of the 90's

Martin

[BETANUT]

Is it right enough that John recently sold the Beta on? Now that's an engine I'd have loved to have get my grubby mitts on in my Beta days.......

[guy mayers]

Now the bottom end!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/LANCIA-037-ABARTH-MAG-DRY-SUMP-CARTER-SEC-COPPA-OLIO_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ34202QQitemZ459323 9126QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

Guy

[chris.richard]

There was one of these on ebay a couple of weeks ago - either it didn't sell, or they're getting common!

[guy mayers]

Didn't reach the reserve.