Engine/motor mounts and driveshaft Questions

[stratosphere]

I have ordered my Hawk with motor mounts suitable for the 3.2 GTA engine as I was told those were different from the normal 24 V engine?
For me it sounds strange if alfa would have changed the motor mount template from the 156 2.5 24v to the 3.2GTA engine?
Or is it rather that 164 24v differs from the later 24v of the GT/GTV/GTA and 166?

As I now have a megadeal (less than 1500£) for a brand new "normal" 3.0 24v (166) I was wondering;
Is the above statement true, and/or how much do motor mounts differ and is it easy to convert them?
If anyone have pics of the two types it would be much appreciated.

Also I don't really understand which parts to use for driveshafts?
As the alfa gearbox comes with shafts why cant I use these?
Or do you use the Betas because they are the only ones fitting in the driven plate, and you use some kind of intermediate part between the Beta shaft and the alfa box?
Is the Beta really up to the power of the alfa and are there spare parts for those old driveshafts? Or do you mix different parts such as "inner CV is alfa and outer is Beta"???
What about lenghts? Are Left and Right the same lenght and you use the Beta only for length reasons?
I have three! Left driveshafts from Betas and as many other cars dont make any difference between Left and Right is this also true with the Betas?

Also I was told that I should buy the splined section suiting a Delta Integrale as those have longer splined section (from Omicrom) any comments on that?
Are there other aftermarket high output (possible twin turbo concept)driveshafts available?
Pics and explanations are most welcome

Waiting for delivery of kit, collecting parts Luigi

[rutthenut]

I've switched from 164 12v V6 to a 164 24v V6 and that did use the same engine mounts, but needed a different engine steady bar (Chris Richard - did yours fit?).

The 156 and 166 engines may well have different mountings compared to the older 164, but I really cannot be sure. I do know that Gerry has a GTA engine, so mounts that fit that should be correct (even then, don't know if 147 and 156 GTA would differ).

I would suspect the 166 may well work with the mounts you have ordered. If it's just the steady bar that is wrong, it is easier to change that. The engine is certainly at a good price - does it have ECU and ancillaries included?

The Alfa driveshafts do not match up with the hubs and hub carriers, so Beta (or similar) shafts are used instead. The kit includes adapters that convert between the different PCD diameters of the Alfa and Lancia inner CV joints, and also converts the distance so that the equal length shafts are positioned correctly (according to the Hawk engine mounting position).

I haven't heard of any real problems with the Beta shaft in the Stratos kits, although one of the racers did get through a number of shafts at some time. That didn't seem to be a problem for any other cars, but hitting kerbs hard whilst under power may have contributed to the failure. Also, the shaft may have been running at a higher angle on the lowered race car.

The Beta shafts are not handed - so long as you don't have an early example. The Alfa/Beta solution uses an intermediate shaft running along the side of the block, so that the inner CV joint is in place for equal-length driveshafts.

With the Hawk (or other) adapters, you therefore use standard Beta CV joints (inner and outer) and shafts, for which parts do still seem to be available (CVs on exchange).

The different length of the splined section on the driveshaft is unlikely to affect strength, but it is important to make sure you get the right combination of driveshaft and hub types. There are discussions and photos on this forum about those - search for Delta and you should find the info you need.

I believe that John Whalley (of www.whalley-integrale.uk.com) has used other Lancia driveshafts, but that they needed to be machined to fit the hubs on his car.

If you want custom driveshafts, you could no doubt have those made - or modify the outer end of the Alfa shafts if you really wanted - but why bother?

This has been discussed a number of times before, so I do recommend searching through the forum for older discussions on this topic...

All the best,

[mogul_x]

Also I don't really understand which parts to use for driveshafts? As the alfa gearbox comes with shafts why cant I use these? Or do you use the Betas because they are the only ones fitting in the driven plate, and you use some kind of intermediate part between the Beta shaft and the alfa box?

The Alfa driveshafts are the wrong length, I think. The use of the Beta driveshaft may be vestigal, since the car was originally designed to use a Beta donor. There is a pair of adapter plates to go between the output flange on the Alfa transaxle and the inner CV joints. The right hand one is thicker, to allow the engine to be shifted slightly closer to the centerline of the car.

Is the Beta really up to the power of the alfa and are there spare parts for those old driveshafts? Or do you mix different parts such as "inner CV is alfa and outer is Beta"??? What about lenghts? Are Left and Right the same lenght?

There have not been widespread problems with the Beta shafts coping with the stock Alfa's power. Spare parts seem to be readily available - Inner CV joints and boots are pretty common, and are shared among a few models. Both halfshafts are the same length.

Also I was told that I should buy the splined section suiting a Delta Integrale as those have longer splined section (from Omicrom) any comments on that?

This is more a function of which bolt pattern you want on the wheels. 4-lug wheels can use the Beta outer CV joint and hub. If you want 5-lug wheels, the Delta Integrale hub is the way to go, but the spline length is different than the Beta CV joint. You can either machine the splines away to fit the CV joint, or swap the Beta joint for the Delta joint. It's a direct swap. Just knock the old CV joint of the outer end of the Beta halfshaft, and snap the Delta CV joint in its place.

[chris.richard]

I've switched from 164 12v V6 to a 164 24v V6 and that did use the same engine mounts, but needed a different engine steady bar (Chris Richard - did yours fit?).

I swapped Twink to 24v, so had to change teh steady bar - I can't comment on 12 to 24 v conversions.

I used Integrale outer CV joints. A straight swap as Scott says.

[David May]

I went 12V to 24V (Corse) and kept the steady bar.

[Chris J]

If you want 5-lug wheels, the Delta Integrale hub is the way to go, but the spline length is different than the Beta CV joint. You can either machine the splines away to fit the CV joint, or swap the Beta joint for the Delta joint. It's a direct swap. Just knock the old CV joint of the outer end of the Beta halfshaft, and snap the Delta CV joint in its place.

Scott

Are you saying that it is possible to use the Delta 5 stud hub, but retain the Beta shaft and Beta CV?

I want to convert my car to 5x98 stud, but for some reason (?) I'd got it into my head that I couldn't use a Delta hub and retain the Beta shafts. I HAVE to retain the shafts because they are a Beta to Honda hybrid.

[strat6v]

As far as i know the delta/thema cv's are the same and are a direct swop onto the beta shaft. As for the drive flanges, i have at thr present time thema four stud fitted but am looking to change them for the integrale five stud. The spline inside the drive flange is about twice the length of the beta one.

[rutthenut]

Regarding the splined length that varies between types - does this mean that there is a larger area engaged between the shaft and the CV joint, or is that the same but with a larger range for driveshaft plunge?

[SUSIT]

[QUOTE=stratosphere]
As I now have a megadeal (less than 1500£) for a brand new "normal" 3.0 24v (166) I was wondering;


Hello there, you may have thought of this before but just in case i have two concerns going down the brand new route on a new kit
1 you may have to pay some form of car tax if you build new and want to register as a new vehicle, others on the forum may have more information on this
2 You will need to fit CAT to the exhaust system, not impossible but more difficult and costly

As I say you have more than likely thought this all through before so ignore me if I am covering old ground :)

[Mark Cowling]

Hi all, John as far as I understand it the spline comes right to the back of the Intergrale hub & not the Beta hub, ( early Beta ones) as one Beta I stripped had the full length splines, the splines on the C/V that fit into the hub are also full length on the Intergrale & not on early Beta , that is why people change the early Beta C/V when they go 5 stud hubs, Chris the long splined C/V joints I changed mine to fitted my drive shafts which I think are the same as yours,(quite difficult to explain) Bernard may be able to cofirm this as I think he had the spline length problem, Regards Mark.

[strat6v]

The plunge would be taken care of on the inner cv.

Please look in my gallery before bed time as all my bits are loose so i can take a pic. :p

[mogul_x]

Are you saying that it is possible to use the Delta 5 stud hub, but retain the Beta shaft and Beta CV?

Yes. If you want to fit a Delta hub to the Beta outer CV joint, you can take the hub to a machine shop, and machine the splines back from the inboard edge. The splines on the Delta hub run the full width, but the Beta CV joint is not splined all the way down to the root of the stub axle. If you try putting the two together, the hub will bottom out on the CV joint splines before the axle is seated against the bearing.

You can probably measure the Beta hub to see how much of the splines you'll need to remove. I'm almost certain that the splines are the same profile, just different lengths.

If you're fitting the 5-lug option to a Hawk with the old style upright (with the locking ring from the Beta instead of a circlip to retain the bearing) you will need to be careful trying to fit a Delta outer CV joint. Some of them will interfere with the locking ring. I think you need to find CV joints for a non-ABS car, but I'm not certain.

[mogul_x]

Regarding the splined length that varies between types - does this mean that there is a larger area engaged between the shaft and the CV joint, or is that the same but with a larger range for driveshaft plunge?

John,

The splines we're talking about are the ones between the outer CV joint and the hub. As far as I can tell, the splines on the inside the outer CV joint that engage the end of the halfshaft are the same from the Beta to the Delta.

[Sando]

I have ordered my Hawk with motor mounts suitable for the 3.2 GTA engine as I was told those were different from the normal 24 V engine?
For me it sounds strange if alfa would have changed the motor mount template from the 156 2.5 24v to the 3.2GTA engine?
Or is it rather that 164 24v differs from the later 24v of the GT/GTV/GTA and 166?



Hi Luigi
I've not seen the GTA engine block so can't comment on that, but The other later 24v engines all seem to have the same mounting points as the earlier ones. My Kappa 3L engine looks exactly the same as the 2.5 156 and 166 3L engine and the 12v V6 conversion Kit from Gerry has fitted quite easily.

The only difference I've found was the casting that attaches the Alternator on the 164 or the PS and Air Con pumps on the later engines. (Where the Alt may be on the other side? it is on my engine?)
I've just taken the PS and AC pumps and the casting off, then extended the existing Hawk mounting to the studs that held that casting on. I think this is the only area that's different. See pics in gallery or the Kappa 24v thread. This also makes loads of space in that area and no need to mod tanks or chassis for a conversion.

The other mounts are fine and fit onto the V6 chassis mounts fine too (Although I did need to move the holes slightly to get equal driveshaft end float with the driveshaft adapters. In this respect it was better to NOT to have the mount 'cups' already welded in, so I could move the engine about to the position I wanted and then re make the holes before finally welding the cups in place.

The 6 speed GTA gearbox is also cable controlled I believe, so I suppose there is a difference there too in the mountings for the gear linkage. (and maybe the mounting off the Gearbox too????)

cheers
Rob :cool:

[chris.richard]

Photo of CV splines.

gallery page (http://www.stratossupersite.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=265&sort=1&cat=500&page=4)

[chris.richard]

If you're fitting the 5-lug option to a Hawk with the old style upright (with the locking ring from the Beta instead of a circlip to retain the bearing) you will need to be careful trying to fit a Delta outer CV joint. Some of them will interfere with the locking ring. I think you need to find CV joints for a non-ABS car, but I'm not certain.

I have these old style uprights, and used Delta non-ABS CVs, but still had problems with a flange seizing - the one arrowed in this pic. I machined it off and the wheels now go round, which is for the best, I feel :p
gallery pic (http://www.stratossupersite.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=787&sort=1&cat=500&page=1)

[Chris J]

Chris the long splined C/V joints I changed mine to fitted my drive shafts which I think are the same as yours,(quite difficult to explain) Bernard may be able to cofirm this as I think he had the spline length problem, Regards Mark.

Mark

The driveshafts on mine ARE the same as yours because you ended up with my ex rally car's spare pair. Martin K. had a batch of three sets made up. The other pair are on a dark blue Honda powered car fitted with Technomagnesio Gp 4 coffin spoke wheels that belonged to a chap called Nick Moat. I wonder where that car is now?

Thanks everyone for all the input here regarding hubs and driveshafts. I think (for once) that it all makes sense to me.

Next question is:
What's the cheapest way of getting hold of a pair of Delta hubs/drive flanges. I'm assuming they're the front ones from an Evo?

[strat6v]

I've been hunting on ebay for ages-none. Looks like the local fiat dealer. Although i haven't checked, i'm assuming the centre of the alfa drive flange is too big to fit the fiat bearing. Hmmm ,gonna check. Can't be that simple.

[Chris J]

John

You're right, it can't be that simple, 'else you'd have heard about it by now?

I suppose I'd better price the drive flanges from Walkers, Barry Waterhouse or John Walley? You'd think that someone would have thought of breaking Evos? Some of them must be worth less than the sum of there parts by now?

Is it the front flanges/hubs that are needed? The rears (4x4 remember) are no use?

[strat6v]

I'm not sure myself Chris, i would have thought they'd use the same ones. I didn't want to buy rears and then find they were different. JP may be able to shed some light.

[shaun]

Chris, have you tried the evoforum? If your are really stuck there is a 8v 2L Thema not far from me. I was meant to go and get the whole drive train out of it but still haven't. In the same yard there is a 24V 164 with a well and truely cooked engine, the front calipers and clutch cylinders have all ready gone.

There was someone breaking a 8v Integrale near Bolton or Bradford and there might be another comming up soon, again on the Evoforum. Don't forget your pinch of salt!

http://forums.delphiforums.com/evoforum/start

I'll have a sniff around, Delta, non abs outer cv's, correct.

[shaun]

Outer cv's AND flanges.

[strat6v]

8 valve-four stud
evo - five stud

[chris.richard]

From my John Whalley invoice (August 02 price)

part no 82440166 CV joint £84.28 each ex VAT
part no 5890988 Hub bearing delta Evo £35.28 each ex VAT

[chris.richard]

In the same yard there is a 24V 164 with a well and truely cooked engine, the front calipers and clutch cylinders have all ready gone.


Useful source of gearbox/loom/ignition parts plus engine mount/transfer shaft if someone wants to convert an auto motor to manual spec..... ;)

[stratosphere]

Thanks alot guys. Your answers has really made me understand.
Your help is invaluable!!!!!

Some small comments though:
What is the steady bar?

And to some of you:
Rutthenut: Price does not have ECU and ancillaries included!
(Will probably go DTA as me and friends has the most xperience on them)

SUSIT: I don't need to worry about your VAT, MOT, CAT, SVA etc as I am in Sweden with different rules
(New engines are OK).
I have other issues though as one can not build kit cars here!!!!
Only exclusively homemade cars are allowed. (Kit car manufacturers are considered as any manufacturer and therefore need to follow standard EC regulations.
Totally selfmade cars has exempts and follows Swedish rules pre 1975 basicly)


Thanks again to all of you Luigi

[chris.richard]

What is the steady bar?


The bit that attaches the top of the engine to the bulkhead to stop it rocking on the mountings

[Chris J]

[QUOTE=shaun]There was someone breaking a 8v Integrale near Bolton or Bradford and there might be another comming up soon, again on the Evoforum. Don't forget your pinch of salt!QUOTE]

Shaun

Thanks for the Evoforum tip.
As John H.'s reminder says; Only the Evos have the 5 stud set up, all the narrow arch Integrales are 4 stud.

If front and rear drive flanges are the same on an Evo (as John is guessing), all the better?

[Chris J]

Apologies for mentioning Barry Waterhouse without knowing that he'd died!

Sorry.

I have bought a couple of Lancia bits from him in the past, he was a good specialist and enthusiast.

[roger001]

If you intend using a DTA ecu I have a map for the 12v engine using the E48 ECU and will be getting this remapped early next year for a 24v engine if all goes to plan.
so if you need a map to start off with I can let you have a copy.

[stratosphere]

ROGER001:
Thanks for the offer

I would love to have a map from you from your 12 V engine.
Me and some friends races an old alfa 75 in a wreck series and for some crazy reason we have an E48 on this car.
Problem is that this engine is so worn that we cant use lamda on it as it draws oil past the pistons and therefore upsets the closed back system.

I would really like to test a map from a fresh car.

Thanks in advance, Luigi