New kid with lots of questions

[Alex Wood]

Hi Guys,

I've just joined the site because I've been infected by the Stratos Virus. :p
I've got it into my head that I want to build my own Stratos GP4. Always thought they were fantastic ever since I had a remote control one as a kid and started following rallying during the Group B era of Quattro's, T16's & 037's and Delta S4's. (I'm too young to remember a works Stratos.)

I'm going to ask a question that has probably polarised opinion here for the past few years. Hawk or Corse? On paper the kits look pretty well matched but has either got the edge on quality/rigidity/handling/ease of assembly/availability & cost of donor parts/after sales support/etc.

I think that I've decided on an Alfa V6 power plant. i.e. buy a runner with an MOT and get a feel for it. (but could change my mind, has anyone tried a Maserati Biturbo V6 yet.???)

Is this build too big an undertaking for someone's 1st Kit car and with only limited practical experience? (I can tell one end of a spanner fro the other, worked in my old fella's garage as a summer job earning beer tokens for uni. & he's due to retire next year so should be able to rope him into helping out on the trickier stuff.)

What's the estimated build time (from experience)?

How much should I budget for? I've got an initial figure of £20k in my head for starters but I'm sure I've missed a bucket load of stuff from my list.

An last but not least. Anyone got any ideas on how to tell the bread-knife. :confused:

Cheers for now

Alex

[strat6v]

Hi Alex and welcome.

I hope you'll find us a friendly bunch.

I will try and summarise as best i can. Hawk produce a reasonably close replica, very accomplished and good quality. Napiesport produce another very accomplished machine, not quite as close a replica but still very good quality.
It is more a case of personal choice. I bought a Transformer, now Hawk, reason being at the time(1989) that it was really the only choice. Both Hawk and Napiersport are proffesional outfits so you can rest assured that your pennies would be safe.

An alfa v6 would be the best choice, it sounds right, goes great(24 valve even better) There are a few with Lancia beta engines, honda v6, lancia thema turbo/8.32 ferrari v8 and pucker ferrari v8's. Personal choice and wallet size would be the main factors. I don't know of anybody fitting a maser bi turbo but if thats what you fancy you'd need to go for a real late ghibli, if i remember rightly the earlier ones are a bit flat. There is rumour of a common block v8 bike engined car being built but i think the motors are 15k plus and would need rebuilding before you got to the channel tunnel.

As far as group 4 kits go, Hawk produce replicas of the campagnolo coffin spoke wheels but also if you check out catswhiskers gallery, micks car has some that are very similar in 17 inch sizes.

Now, the wife. Best thing is not to tell her. spend your money then take your punishment!! Quite a few here are divorced, or in my case getting divorced. The chaps that are still with partners obviously have something more, bigger and better than me.

To conclude, have a look at members cars in your area then make up your mind. Whichever way you go, you'll have a machine that turns heads far more than a porsche, lotus, bmw etc could ever do.

Happy spending!!

(discuss it with the wife!)

John.

[chris.richard]

I'm going to ask a question that has probably polarised opinion here for the past few years. Hawk or Corse? On paper the kits look pretty well matched but has either got the edge on quality/rigidity/handling/ease of assembly/availability & cost of donor parts/after sales support/etc.

Corse proponents say that it has better handling due to it's more recent design. I've not seen a back to back comparison, and both are used successfully in competition. I think they're equal on all other accounts other than internal accuracy as a replica, where the Hawk is the nearest to the Lancia. Napiersport have been extremely attentive in their post sales customer care since the takeover, but to be honest i doubt if they can keep that up for all customers.

I think that I've decided on an Alfa V6 power plant. i.e. buy a runner with an MOT and get a feel for it. (but could change my mind, has anyone tried a Maserati Biturbo V6 yet.???).

Not yet, we're waiting for a new boy to do that! The 24v Alfa seems to be gaining popularity over the older 12v.

Is this build too big an undertaking for someone's 1st Kit car and with only limited practical experience? (I can tell one end of a spanner fro the other, worked in my old fella's garage as a summer job earning beer tokens for uni. & he's due to retire next year so should be able to rope him into helping out on the trickier stuff.).

You'll need plenty of help, I would think, but with in-house professional advice, that would probably do. Building a kit car from scratch is different from replacing components on mass market cars though. Both Stratos kits leave a vast amount to the ingenuity/imagination of the builder. They also need a fair bit of fabrication done.

What's the estimated build time (from experience)?

Obviously it depends on how much time you put in, but think in terms of 2-3 years. It has been done in 9 months. Is a car ever finally finished? :cool:


How much should I budget for? I've got an initial figure of £20k in my head for starters but I'm sure I've missed a bucket load of stuff from my list..).

It could be done for that using a lot of scrapyard sourced components. if you want to include a decent paint job etc etc, I'd think £25k is more realistic. And when did a project ever come in on budget? :rolleyes:

An last but not least. Anyone got any ideas on how to tell the bread-knife. :confused:

From a safe distance. And hide all receipts in different places - I can't bring myself to see all the figures together! :eek:

As for lots of questions, well, we're rarely stuck for an answer here ;)

[armourerdoug]

Hi Alex, welcome onboard!
I got my part finished Transformer home today, mine has a Beta twincam volumex (supercharged). the alfas sound amazing ,but are much heavier than the original Dino lump so I would expect slightly more twitchy at the back (am I correct u V6 boys?)
good luck with your project, all the guys here are brilliant with help,advice and parts! top place to be a part of.
I also joined the Stratos enthusiasts club and would suggest you do, tons of great info and a cd rom of past magazine articles.

Doug

[mogul_x]

Alex,

From everything I've seen and heard, the fiberglass quality on the Hawk is still somewhat better than the Corse. The gelcoat and layup on my Hawk were very good. A recently imported Corse kit was less well received by its owner. Aside from that, I think they're about equal in terms of quality and difficulty of assembly.

The Corse I model might have an edge with regards to spares availability. The suspension uprights on that car are from a fairly recent Ford of Europe model, whereas the Hawk uses 30 year old Fiat stub axles in the front suspension. I don't know of either car suffering a failure of these components outside of a heavy collision, but the supply of donor stub axles for the Hawk is presently limited.

I would strongly recommend that you arrange a visit to both manufacturers prior to purchase if you are considering a new kit. Take a look at the unstarted kits in person, talk to the principals, and make your decision based on firsthand impressions.

Good luck, and welcome aboard!

[chris.richard]

but the supply of donor stub axles for the Hawk is presently limited.

I think that has been sorted by sourcing FSO parts from Poland.

[Sando]

From a safe distance. And hide all receipts in different places - ;)


Very wise advice ;) otherwise I'd be divorced now too. :eek: shhhh! ;)

[catswhiskers]

Hi Alex,

Welcome to the forum and what lies ahead. If you check on the suppliers section of the forum about two months ago, this question was asked. Mine and others comments are there to help you form your own opinion and thats all it will come down to. What you want, what you have to spend and what you intend to do with it when completed.
Good luck in your quest.

Mick. :)

[strat fan]

Hi Alex welcome to the forum
As is often stated the Hawk remains loyal to the original Lancia & replicates it wherever it is viable to do so, both in the interior & exterior. The chassis is even a replication as far as is possible (a steel monocoque centre tub would be a little too expensive to replicate). Also authentic wheels are also available.
Both cars were moulded off originals so are authentic in their exterior.
I haven't worked on a Hawk body but I am familiar with the Corse & whilst it isn't the best body in the industry it is not as bad as people say, Catswhiskers has just built his Corse in 8months with no complaints, Both CorseChris & Swamprat have examples of the car with exemplary fitting body work so it can't be all that bad.
The Corse I uses all new components, the only donor items are the engine, gearbox, steering column & handbrake lever.
The chassis of the Corse differs greatly in its design, rather than replicating the original it uses the clean sheet of paper approach & is constructed from more conventional off the shelf materials combined with some intelligent usage of folded sheet steel to form a very rigid semi monocoque structure. The chassis is designed to be both light & torsionally rigid whilst optimising the space available, the interior is spacious & the fuel cell is inboard of the pontoons & roll cage structure hence giving it more impact protection. The suspension design also differs from the original Lancia/Hawk, rather than retaining the original configuration of front double wishbones & rear struts the Corse I uses a double wishbone configuration all round. This means that characteristics of the front & rear suspension are designed to always work in conjunction with each other. Hence the roll centres & camber change of each axle are consistant with each other throughout their range of travel. The uprights used are bespoke cast aluminium units machined to adapt off the shelf Ford bearings, flanges & brakes. These are all new & available over the counter.
This is not to say that either car is deficient in any way (The chassis of both cars are inherently stiff due to the nature of the short wheelbase & integral rollcages, both come with RAC compliant roll cages.) its just a matter of choice whether you want to go the authentic accurate replica route or you want a modern interpretation of a classic car.
As Mogul X says don't buy until you've been to see both manufacturers & have been for a ride in both examples of the marque. Also it is good advise to to talk to owners/builders for their impartial views/experiences with either manufacturer.

[rutthenut]

Good balanced comments so far. Also consider that as owners, we are mosltly biased but do still try to give fair comment. Strongest point made is to visit both companies, see some of their customer's cars too, then make your own choice.

By the way, the Biturbo might be interesting, but you would put up cost and complexity a lot by choosing a different engine to all others. You would also need to mate it to a fwd transaxle. The Alfa V6 engine and gearbox fits just fine.
(also not sure that the weight difference over the four-pot has been found to make the car 'more twitchy' as questioned earlier, although the higher weight of the engine can perhaps be felt behind your shoulder in some cornering circumstances. The twitchy handling is more down do wheelbase and weight distribution than the actual weight of the engine concerned - IMHO).

All the best,

[chris.richard]

WRT heavier than ferrari engine & rear end twitchiness - tyre technology has improved considerably in the last 30 years, so will help rear adhesion.

I personally feel that 345 modern tyres are too sticky for the cars to drive perfectly. Oooh... that'll put the cat in t't loft! :eek:

[Alex Wood]

Cheers lads, you've all answered alot of for me. I'll have to do a bit more homework before I get stuck into it fully. Is there any Strat owners in the NE of Scotland, I've noticed Chris R is in the borders but that's the closest so far.

[strat6v]

Stephen struthers(susit)

There was one owner by the name of David Moss who lived in Balmedie. Not had contact for a few years though. Try looking in the phone book if your local, he may be listed.

[Swamprat33]

Also Stuart Foster from Coldstream is building a Corse.

[SUSIT]

Welcome Alex, I am In Inverness my car is an Allora a very early Corse S if you like but has a number of diffrences to the Corse. At the moment its in bits undergoing a rebuild so that I can get a MSA logbook for rallying. Would be pleased to help. You can send me a pm and I will email my contact details
Stephen

[chris.richard]

Gary Keenan in Edinburgh has a Corse