Lancia Kappa 24v into Hawk

[Sando]

Hiya
Had it's first trial fit yesterday with some pleasing results. (see Gallery) I was prepared that things would be different to the Alfa V6 upgrade, but basically it is still the (98)24v Alfa lump and apart from a slight mod needed to one of the engine mountings all is well. :)
The later engines have also got the water outlets on the gearbox end and the cam belt wraps around the ex pulley on the rear head properly too. :) :)

So the additional good news
Firstly the Alternator. Being on the opposite side to the 164 I wasn't sure if this would fit or not as standard, but it does :) and I should also be just able to get the Anti Roll Bar back on too.
The Second point about this is that getting rid of the PS and Aircon pumps (bulkhead side) means that there is also plenty of room for the chassis diagonal to stay in place AND the tank not need modifying. The down side is that there is not an adjuster as this was on one of the pumps, but by just having a belt round the crank, W pump and Alt, everything is at the back away from the tank and diagonal. I may make an adjuster but then again Polly V belts come in all sizes and can be stretched over..

The only fly in the ointment (so far ;) ) is the dipstick.. :D (.. yeh go on I'm sure you'll think of something funny!)
Very Very Very Luckily for me is that the Box in the bulkhead for the Weber on the Volumex is slap bang in the right place to let me get at the dipstick. Otherwise a bulkhead mod would have been needed. (my bulkhead is flat but I would guess a sloping one would still need a bit of modding.

Gear linkage is the same but the top spigot on the chassis that needs to be moved will have to go a little to one side to miss the cam cover. Not a big problem and the linkage will still work ok.

So now the tanks are out and the cutting and welding can begin ! :) :)
Roberto

[Sando]

Bulkhead side engine mount mod for 24v without original Alt / air con / ps-pump mount casting.

[Sando]

Nearly in permanently :D
bit of blumbing and wiring still to do.

[Sando]

Throttle body Chris.

[Sando]

and another angle

[Sando]

And the twin butterflies 35mm and 50mm How does that equate to the single Alfa Butterfly size?
More flow or less flow?
Roberto :)

[Sando]

Love it! :D :D :D

[rutthenut]

Looks good Rob. Strange TB setup. Rear-mounted alternator would be a boon. How do you do 'blumbing'? Both in and out water pipes over the gearbox side - that would also be really good. Engine steady bar presumably different, but easy enough to fix.

Keep us up to date on further progress too.

By the way, what was the bhp from this engine with the Motec ECU?

[guy mayers]

That looks a lot nicer that the Alfa..... The dipstick looks to be in the same place as the 12v Alfa and I have no trouble getting that out with a recessed flat bulkhead. The top of the dipstick is solid but the steel part is flexible and bends easily enough.
I'm looking forward to seeing the finished installation! Keep the piccies coming!
Guy

[rutthenut]

Guy - just looking through the photo gallery and the dipstick position is clearer in that. I reckon that an Alfa dipstick could be fitted instead. My 12v engine had a 'flat blade' dipstick, which flexed fairly well. I think my 24v has a coil-spring style dipstick with a flat end on it. Either dipstick tube would probably screw in to the base of the block. Just need to ensure the top end is OK by the manifolds.

And if you do change dipsticks, make sure you verify that the markings are correct. I had a replacement dipstick in my 12v engine and that needed a different set of markings to be correct...

[guy mayers]

And the twin butterflies 35mm and 50mm How does that equate to the single Alfa Butterfly size?
More flow or less flow?
Roberto :)

Hi Rob, how do they open? In unison or in stages when the throttle is stomped on?

[mudhut]

Awesome. I really like the look of this.

Is the engine going to be a problem for parts? Not only because of the scarcity of dealers who know the engine but also each time I go into a Fiat dealer, they tell me they cannot look up a part without a chassis number - whatever the car. Are Alfa dealers any better?

[rutthenut]

And the twin butterflies 35mm and 50mm How does that equate to the single Alfa Butterfly size?

My quick maths works that out as about 962sq.mm and 1963sq.mm areas, so 2801sq.mm area on wide-open-throttle. That equates to a single throttle aperture of about 60mm diameter (if my maths is right - is it?).

But I don't know what size the throttle is on my 24v engine, nor on the old 12v... Reading the spec of the Green BR05 top-hat adaptor, that shows a rectangular intake of 50mm x 65mm size, which equates to 3250sq.mm

But the Alfa units have a big airflow meter flap valve in the way, so the Lancia version could well flow more air.

[chris.richard]

Here's what my near namesake Chris Richards of the Thema register told me about the engine when I was discussing it earlier this year.

The main difference between these two engines was their torque and bhp figures the Alfa being more on the bhp side and the Lancia being a more refined engine for executive saloon high performance focused concentratedon abalance of bhp and torque.

This is the reason for the difference between the two. The Lancia version coupled with the ECU mapping and the passage of air through the plenum chamber prodeuces a longer torque curve.

As far as I know that is the only difference and indeed as I have a Lancia V6 plenum chamber and cam covers albeit for a 12V rather than a 24V I shall be using them as toque rather than bhp is more useful for a road car.

I believe that the 24V followed this principle and the shape of the plenum produced the necessary airflow to provide the torque that Lancia wanted for their prestige executive model.

Hope this helps to explain the difference bertween the Alfa and Lancia versions of what is basically the same engine.


I'm still intrigued by the possiblity of using the Lancia logo'd plenum with the Alfa AFM/throttle body. Purely for the aesthetics of not having Alfa badging. Ooh, vanity.. :o

[strat6v]

Front mount is just what the doctor ordered! :)

[CorseChris]

Peter,

I use a copy of the Fiat/Alfa/Lancia parts CD and just give them part numbers. Not had a problem doing that as yet. Maybe not the cheapest, but I find Mangoletsi very helpful and tend to use them.


Awesome. I really like the look of this.

Is the engine going to be a problem for parts? Not only because of the scarcity of dealers who know the engine but also each time I go into a Fiat dealer, they tell me they cannot look up a part without a chassis number - whatever the car. Are Alfa dealers any better?

[Chris J]

You're making your car into something really special now Rob.

I can't quite put my finger on why the Lancia sourced engine makes a difference, but it does.

[Sando]

Looks good Rob. Strange TB setup. Rear-mounted alternator would be a boon. How do you do 'blumbing'? Both in and out water pipes over the gearbox side - that would also be really good. Engine steady bar presumably different, but easy enough to fix.

Keep us up to date on further progress too.

By the way, what was the bhp from this engine with the Motec ECU?

:D Blumbing is wot a non Corgi registered car builder does with Samco and rubber pipes! :p ....yep rear Alt is spot on and Water outlets same as 156 and GTV - over the Gearbox end.- very easy, almost the same as the Vx just bigger. Engine steady bar to be made up yet, but not a problem.

Trevor said it should be 230 -235BHP now with the bigger runners. They mapped it at around 215 before they were fitted. If the plenum and throttle arrangement give more torque than the Alfa then that will be very welcome!! :D
R :cool:

[Sando]

Hi Rob, how do they open? In unison or in stages when the throttle is stomped on?

Small butterfly opens first and then at about 2/3 open the Bigger one then comes in to play.
R :cool:

[Sando]

Awesome. I really like the look of this.

Is the engine going to be a problem for parts? Not only because of the scarcity of dealers who know the engine but also each time I go into a Fiat dealer, they tell me they cannot look up a part without a chassis number - whatever the car. Are Alfa dealers any better?

Hi Peter Apart from the Plenum and Cam cover it's just a late 24v Alfa. As Chris says the ePER disks have all the part numbers on. All I've done is ring up and order the part number I've needed. (GTV seems closest on layout / senders etc.)
Rob

[Sando]

My quick maths works that out as about 962sq.mm and 1963sq.mm areas, so 2801sq.mm area on wide-open-throttle. That equates to a single throttle aperture of about 60mm diameter (if my maths is right - is it?).

But I don't know what size the throttle is on my 24v engine, nor on the old 12v... Reading the spec of the Green BR05 top-hat adaptor, that shows a rectangular intake of 50mm x 65mm size, which equates to 3250sq.mm

But the Alfa units have a big airflow meter flap valve in the way, so the Lancia version could well flow more air.

I've got a feeling it might be 60mm butterfly on the Alfa which would be understandable as the power is very similiar. Anyone able to check? Bernardo? Johnny H?

[strat6v]

Gimme chance to have me tea, then i'll have a look. Should have your pipe tomorow.

[David May]

My Q4 24V has a 70mm throttle body...

[chris.richard]

:D Blumbing is wot a non Corgi registered car builder does

Does that mean you only do Dinkys? :p

[chris.richard]

My AFM intake hole is 60 x 85 mm

[strat6v]

B is a long way from p rob, you can't blame it on a typo.Anyway, of for a ahit.

John. :D :D

[Martin K]

My quick maths works that out as about 962sq.mm and 1963sq.mm areas, so 2801sq.mm area on wide-open-throttle. That equates to a single throttle aperture of about 60mm diameter (if my maths is right - is it?).

But I don't know what size the throttle is on my 24v engine, nor on the old 12v... Reading the spec of the Green BR05 top-hat adaptor, that shows a rectangular intake of 50mm x 65mm size, which equates to 3250sq.mm

But the Alfa units have a big airflow meter flap valve in the way, so the Lancia version could well flow more air.

My calculations show that with the effective 60mm throttle area this engine will begin to suffer flow difficulties over 5700 rpm. Theoretically, it is unlikely that the larger (45mm) runners will improve power on this engine because the restriction at the throttle body is of more significance.

The 70mm body on the QV is capable of flowing air up to 7700 rpm before running into flow restriction problems. At this engine speed the 45mm runners are right on the limit too, with the 40mm runners getting restrictive at 6100 rpm

[Sando]

Thanks Martin. It'll be interesting to see what we get out of it when it goes on the rollers again and how it drives / revs. Maybe a bigger TB next winter then :)
It'll do for now....
cheers
Rob

[Sando]

Does that mean you only do Dinkys? :p

Airfix ;) :p

[Sando]

B is a long way from p rob, you can't blame it on a typo.Anyway, of for a ahit.

John. :D :D

:D Probably meant to say Bodging....careful you don't hit yourself Johnboy :D