Sprint equipment

[catswhiskers]

Hi guys,
Can anyone let me know what the current spec. is for Helmets, Overalls, Gloves, Boots etc. for Sprint and hillclimbing.
I know when I used to do a lot of rallying, the BS numbers were constantly changing each year so you never knew what the scrutineers were checking against. Obviously I dont want to shell out on a set of kit only to find that it doesn't comply or that it will be obsolete quickly.

Thanks in anticipation.

Mick

[Swamprat33]

Hi Mick. I will bring my 2005 MSA Blue book with me to Donnington, so you can have a trawl through that.
Basically, you need an approved Nomex or Proban suit and a helmet that meets at least BS6658-A. Helmets with a Nomex lining usually have BS6658-A/FR rating.

Most stuff available states that it is MSA or FIA aproved anyway.

Cheers
Tim

[catswhiskers]

Thanks Tim,

MSA Yearbook. mmm Happy Days :rolleyes:

Mick

[catswhiskers]

So, next daft question. Where is the distinction between FIA approved and MSA approved. :confused: After all, we are only talking sprints here, not Grand Prix racing?
Must be my age, I'm confused. (that doesnt take much these days)

Mick

[SUSIT]

International events run to FIA rules below that MSA

[catswhiskers]

Right, so why do I need a helmet with FIA approval when I can buy one with MSA approval for substantially less. Something with regard to BS6658-A or BS6658-85A/FR.
I realise that FR is flame retardent but both are listed as MSA approved with the latter one FIA approved ?????

Why is life never simple. :rolleyes:

Mick

[SUSIT]

That's a new one on me Mick my helmet is not flame retardent but got a legal MSA sticker so cant answer.

[catswhiskers]

Aha, the plot thickens. :) No doubt someone will be able to shed light on that one.

Mick

[roger001]

FIA events require a flame retardant helmet lining, whilst MSA events no not. ( however a FR hemet will also be MSA approved it is simply a higher standard)

[catswhiskers]

Thanks Roger, thats cleared that one up then. So it looks like I need equipment with MSA approval but not necessarily FIA approval.
Simple ;)

Mick

[roger001]

correct (unless you are planning to race at FIA events such as Spa) I had to replace both my helmet and overalls!

[Swamprat33]

I got an OMP 3 layer Nomex (FIA) aproved suit from ebay.
only been worn 3 times. Looked new, and only paid £100 for it.
Got boots and gloves that were FIA aproved, but the helmet was a basic BS6658-85A type, as it was all i could afford/justify at the time.
I am not planning to enter international events, so this is fine for now.

Tim

[catswhiskers]

Tim,

I'm also trying to find a 'nearly new' suit etc. I've seen a 2 layer Nomex one that has the following label:
FIA NORME 1986,
1986 Standard,
01.004 Race 86.
Could you check in the blue book if that will satisfy the MSA current regulations for me. :confused:

Thanks
Mick

[Sando]

Be careful with that Mick as there are some FIA suits now out of date too.
Also on the FIA subject, I think there are changes coming around Belts and them having an age limit too. Not sure if that is just for Rallying though.

Roberto :cool:

[Swamprat33]

Hi again. My understanding after talking to several bods in the know is the following.

MSA or FIA aproved gear is fine for UK club level Sprinting and Hillclimbing.
The FIA aproval is normally only required for National and International events.
FIA Belts do have an age limit, but can be sent back to maker and retested and stamped if in good condition. I have a set of 7 year old TRS belts that I plan to do this with, as they are out of date, but never been installed in a car.
However, these out of date FIA belts can still be used in club events as long as they are not damaged. I was told this by the head of TRS earlier this year.

I believe the same to be true for race suits.

The important fact is that no equipment should be used if it is badly worn or damaged. After all, these items are there to protect you.

Cheers

Tim

[rutthenut]

At Abingdon, the Scrute told me that my helmet will need replacing next year.

I thought that age-related rules were dropped for crash helmets; have they been brought back in again?

(I know, read my own Blue Book...)

[Sando]

Hi John
Non that I know of, depends what approval you a re using though, is it going on a Snell approval or the BS one? I think the Snell one may have changed. The colour of the MSA sticker changed from last year to this year as well though, perhaps they do it on that? Take the sticker off clean it up a bit and get a new one put on by the local scrute?..... ;)

Robbie. :cool:

[catswhiskers]

That sounds like what we used to have to do in the 70's and early 80's. I would point out that I was very young then :D :D :D
It was standard practice then but I'm beginning to wonder what I've started here. I only want to go out and have some harmless fun :rolleyes:
I do take on board the fact that it's our safety at stake but fail to see how things suddenly go 'out of date' especially if they're not worn or damaged.
Oh well, as the saying goes, 'rules are made for the obedience of fools and the guidence of wise men' :confused:

Mick

[SUSIT]

That sounds like what we used to have to do in the 70's and early 80's. I would point out that I was very young then :D :D :D
It was standard practice then but I'm beginning to wonder what I've started here. I only want to go out and have some harmless fun :rolleyes:
I do take on board the fact that it's our safety at stake but fail to see how things suddenly go 'out of date' especially if they're not worn or damaged.
Oh well, as the saying goes, 'rules are made for the obedience of fools and the guidence of wise men' :confused:

Mick

Mick, To be honest my feelings about those in control at the MSA are not suitable to be placed on an open forum I hope all those who compete in or are intending to compete in their Stratos voice concern to the MSA about the latest proposed rule changes re cars eligable for rallying. Before we know it we will all need HANs devices and such like at huge expense. If we put things in perspective there are very few serious injuries or deaths in motorsport. fishing has the highest number of deaths per thousand participants in this country and as we all know the great north run sadly had 4 deaths this year and averages two per year!!
So while I agree we should all make safety our number one priority lets live in the real world.
and no I am not drunk (not yet anyway)

[rutthenut]

At Abingdon, the Scrute told me that my helmet will need replacing next year.

I thought that age-related rules were dropped for crash helmets; have they been brought back in again?

Just looked at the 2005 Blue Book - which indicates that there are no expiry dates, but some of the accepted standards will be withdrawn at the end of the year.

Section Q 10.3.1 Standards

(a) for International and all MSA events:
FIA 8860-2004 (until 21.12.2005)
SNELL SA2000 (until 21.12.2005)
SFI Foundation 31.1 (a), 31.2 (b)
BS 6658 Type A/FR

(b) for all MSA events:
SNELL SA95 (until 21.12.2005)
BS 6658 -85 Type A (Type 'B' is not acceptable)

(c) for International and MSA National Kart race events:
SNELL K8 only


So I guess my crash helmet has one of the standards that will be withdrawn at the end of 2005 :(

[rutthenut]

Standards for overalls, from the Blue Book.

Racing:
B.S. 6249 part 1 Index A or B (but not C)*
BSEN533*
Pr EN533:1995, Index 3*
FIA Standard Overalls

* Not acceptable w.e.f 1.1.2005 (so what use are these standards then?)

Karting:
As defined in N.11 - not reproduced here

All other events:
B.S. 6249 part 1 Index A or B (but not C)
BSEN533
pr EN533:1995 Index 3
FIA Standard Overalls

For FIA Standard Overalls the label will be stitched into the fabric of the garment or on a sewn-in label. For International use overalls must comply with:
FIA 8856-2000
FIA 1986 standard**

** Not acceptable w.e.f 1.1.2005


Well, my Sparco 'Fashion' overalls appear to be FIA Approved, so that's something (best check what standard applies though). OK for Sprints (and UK Rallies) but could still be an issue for Racing, or going Overseas.

[catswhiskers]

Well, at risk of labouring a point, I've been looking at 'nearly new' nomex suits for a few weeks and have to say I'm still confused. As most seem to be made in Italy, they dont carry a BS number. However, all seem to carry an embroidered code, such as one suit I've seen with 05.219.CSA.1.96 this code seems to be fairly typical although I have noticed variations in the number sequence. All carry the CSA marking. Anyone conversant with what these mean? More importantly, are they FIA/MSA approved to current standards? :confused:

Mick

[SUSIT]

Ok Mick, lets cut to the chase get on the phone to AWS and get a made to measure 3 layer suit for less than the price of one wheel & perhaps tyre. :D
At 5"41/4 its the only way i could get a suit to fit. :D :D

[catswhiskers]

Good idea I know but I dont think I'd get that one past 'Santas little helper' :rolleyes: Know what I mean :D

Mick

[rutthenut]

Section Q 10.3.1 Standards

(a) for International and all MSA events:
FIA 8860-2004 (until 21.12.2005)
SNELL SA2000 (until 21.12.2005)
SFI Foundation 31.1 (a), 31.2 (b)
BS 6658 Type A/FR

(b) for all MSA events:
SNELL SA95 (until 21.12.2005)
BS 6658 -85 Type A (Type 'B' is not acceptable)


Just checked, and my Bell crash helmet has stickers inside for Snell SA95 and also SFI spec 31.2 - from my reading of the blue book, the SFI spec should still apply, even though the Snell spec will not be valid from the end of the year. Any thoughts on that interpretation?

I think I'll need to check up on this formally before I use the lid again next year. Don't want an expensive argument with a scrute!

[chris.richard]

Just checked, and my Bell crash helmet has stickers inside for Snell SA95 and also SFI spec 31.2 - from my reading of the blue book, the SFI spec should still apply, even though the Snell spec will not be valid from the end of the year. Any thoughts on that interpretation?


That's how I'd interpret the bit you quote, but best to confirm with a scroot!

[Sando]

Hi John
I think I'd send in an email or post a question on the MSA web site about that one for clarification. At least if you get a positive reply you could show it to a Scrute if they say different.

Be prepared for the worst though and get a new Lid on the Christmas list quick, just in case.... ;)

R

[rutthenut]

Be prepared for the worst though and get a new Lid on the Christmas list quick, just in case...

Well, no need to get a new lid that soon, don't know if/when I'll be competing next - don't need one until the first event is on the horizon...

Also agree on contacting MSA - will see what they come up with, if anything.