A-R 164 24V Q4 engines

[David May]

The weather cooled off a bit down here (if you call 29°C cool!) and I finally got the Corse I on the dyno. In contrast to the suspicious 24V torque curve listed by the Dutch tuners, my standard Q4 24V showed only a minor drop in torque over 6000 rpm and was pulling 253 hp (corrected flywheel) at 6900. I don't know how much the (missing) catalyser or the unsilenced air-filter contributes but it does confirm what the factory told me - that the Q4 was only rated at 170kW for insurance group purposes and actually produces well over that, to make up for the drag of the 4WD transmission. I doubt if that applies to other 24V variants but it points to a good route to go for cheap power (assuming one can find a cheap, wrecked AR164 Q4 that is!)

Dave May

[Stratos]

David,

That is a nice power figure from a relatively standard engine.

You mention 4WD transmission.Is your engine different to the 24v engine in the standard 2wd 164 3ltr 24v?

Are you able to post a copy of the power/torque graph here?

Which Dutch tuners are you talking about?

[chris.richard]

http://www.squadra-tuning.com/English/EN_chiptuning_for_the_alfa_164.htm
You'll find info on the various 24v variants. They vary in the intake pipes (or runners as they call them) . I've got a 210 bhp version from a 164 Super, but I'm going to change the intake pipes to convert it to the QV /Q4 spec. Might change the chip while I'm at it, but not sure.

[David May]

Dave,

My reference was the Squadra Tuning site, whose 24V torque curve shows a very marked drop above 6500rpm.

My engine came off an Italian market AR164 Q4 which had been wrapped around a tree. It used a complex ZF 4WD transmission (which I substituted with a normal AR transaxle) and has a specially mapped Bosch ECU which communicates with the 4WD controller module. (In fact, mine still flashes the ECU warning light to remind me that the 4WD is not responding, but luckily does not go into a 'limp-home' mode without it.)
According to AR, this variant pumps out a bit more power than the normal 24V to offset the 4WD drag (they say its in the ECU mapping) but I've never seen any figures. The significant difference is that the torque peaks at around 5700rpm and then drops off much slower, leaving the power still rising right up to the limiter - and on the road it feels exactly like that.

I'll post the full curves just as soon as I've got them in a presentable format.

Dave May

[chris.richard]

What exhaust system are you using David?
Where have you put the Lamda probe?

[Stratos]

Originally posted by David May
According to AR, this variant pumps out a bit more power than the normal 24V to offset the 4WD drag (they say its in the ECU mapping) but I've never seen any figures.
Dave May

So the only real differences between this and a standard 3ltr 24v is the ECU?

Cams are same as standard?

Head is same as standard?

Compression ratio same as standard?

Does it have the large inlet pipes?

[chris.richard]

According to Squadra tuning, the QV and Q4 versions are simply the 164 Super 24v with the bigger pipes. They both have the same Motronic M1.7 pack and the same ECU. They show the curves for the Super engine with the bigger pipes which gives the same curves as the QV.
The curves they publish are from single engines, which could account for differences with Davids curves - there are some good engines and some bad ones, no two are the same.

[Stratos]

So what we are effectively saying, is that fitting the larger inlet pipes, plus a revised chip, to a standard 24v engine will up it's power to 250bhp?

That's cheap performance isn't it.

[David May]

Here's a rough plot of the 24V dyno curve in 10kmh steps.
The red trace is corrected flywheel power: peak 186kW at 6900 (AR: 170kW at 6300)
The blue trace is the torque: peak 280nm at 5600 (AR: 280nm at 5000)
The green trace is the loss.
The figures were taken on a braked rolling road (not a simple inertia roller) at 29°C and 1009mB.

[David May]

This version (which was made for the US market) uses a Bosch Motronic M3.7.

I have 2 Lambda sensors, at the end of each collector, a single catalyser and a straight-through silencer.

It certainly has the bigger inlet pipes but the rest of the intake systems looks the same.

I have removed the EGR system but the rest is standard.

David May

[Stratos]

Torque: peak 280nm at 5600

How do we convert that to units I can understand, ie lb/ft?

[chris.richard]

nm X 0.738 = lb ft

watts X 0.0013 = hp

[Stratos]

So, 206lb/ft at 5600rpm, and over 160lb/ft all the way up from about 2500rpm.

Looks like you got a good engine there David.

(Thanks for the conversion factors, Chris)

[David May]

Yes, it may just be a lucky one but either way it suits the car just fine. I'll be spending may cash in the suspension department from now on.

David M

[chris.richard]

Is there likely to be a performance advantage in having the Motronic 3.7 as opposed to the 1.7? The Lancia Kappa uses the 3.7 - could be a source from salvage if there is any advantage in changing.

[David May]

Thinking about it again, these brake figures may be largely accounted for by the installation.
The (temporary) lack of a catalyzer and the 2 ¼" straight-through exhaust system may be worth as much as 8hp at the top end. The lack of power-steering and a/c pumps plus a small alternator on a thin belt (running at ½ normal speed) probably save another 4hp. The lack of EGR may help some more (although I'm not sure that it is activated at full throttle.) The 2 lambda sensors are connected and working (but then most mappings ignore them and go rich at sustained full throttle.)

On the down side, our 'one-grade-suits-all' lead-free fuel is mostly a miserable 95 octane (and the Shell garage was shut, so it won't have had much 'V-power' 98 octane left in the tank) and the engine will have been breathing in some pretty hot air from the top of the engine bay.

Having bought the engine from a breaker, I obviously cannot guarantee that the previous owners had not done some (externally invisible) modifications, although what little was left of the original 164 looked standard. It may also have been a demonstrator in its early life, although I doubt if the factory resorts to blueprinting or tuning these days.

Dave May

[David May]

I doubt very much if the M3.7 can do much for the absolute power (unless the M1.7 still uses a single-shot as opposed to a real sequencial injection.)
I think the main need for the M3.7 is to manage the 2 separate lambda sensors (presumably for the stricter USA pollution regulations), the anti-theft systems and the 4WD interfaces.
If it's just a question of mapping, I can't see any obvious gains. At the end of the day, the very best one could hope to gain with a remapping would be 10hp max, unless the makers deliberately detuned the original for tax, marketing or insurance purposes (as is becoming fashionable today.)

Dave M

[chris.richard]

Wossat?

Also, did you do any rebuilding before installing. As a minimum I'll replace the belts/tensioners etc. anything else advisable? I'd thought of putting some Slick50 in.

[David May]

Exhaust Gas Recirculation to you!! A cheap method of reducing NOx emission by leaking exhaust gas back into the cylinders via a little valve. Does nothing positive for the power though..

Of course I did the timing belt and tensioner before installing, but as the donor car had done under 25,000kms I even left the plugs in (change at 100,000kms!)

I totally reject the use of additives of any sort, on the basis that if they were any use to anybody, they would already be there in the oil and approved by the makers (which most are NOT!)
I've got bottles of additives all over the workshop from various obscure sponsorship deals but refuse to put them anywhere near my precious motors!

I was running my summer grade of rather thick Castrol RS10-60 (I use a synthetic 5-40 in winter) but have never ever had a failure that could be attributed to lubrication problems, and have yet to see proof that any additive gives a lasting reduction in resistance.

Dave M

[chris.richard]

The big advantage of the M3.7 system is the use of the
hot wire air flow meter. But you will have to change
the complete cable harness as well when you want to
use this ECU. You can't just change the ECU and
airflow meter. There is another Squadrachip for the Q4
versions which will give about the same comparing to
the 24v QV.

Another difference is one of the camshafts and it's
sensor. Because the Q4 is using onother type of
camshaft sensor the 4th camshaft is a little
different. When you don't exchange this one to a Q4
type camshaft the ECU will constantly have an error
about this sensor.

[rutthenut]

Exhaust Gas Recirculation to you!! A cheap method of reducing NOx emission by leaking exhaust gas back into the cylinders via a little valve. Does nothing positive for the power though...

I'd heard of EGR before, since I seem to recall something was on my old Jeep CJ7 for this purpose.

Anyway, is that what is labelled as 'Evaporation Solenoid Valve' on the Motronic 1.7 wiring diagrams I've kindly been sent? I guess I'll find out anyway when messing with the engine, but the terminology didn't flag anything to me until I saw your mention of EGR in here - is that what it is?

[strat6v]

Morning john,

Were the wiring diagrams what you needed? I'm struggling to burn copies of the disc at present, once it's sorted i'll pop one in the post.

John.

[rutthenut]

Thanks for those John, they do help a lot - I had similar diagrams from the 12v (but very poor copies) and they were useful when I had to remake sections of the engine loom. But I won't be doing that again.

One point, the diagrams were both listed for the Automatic model. I only expect one or two connectors to differ, if at all, but does the disc include similar diagrams for the manual setup?

Disc would be much appreciated if you can arrange it.
(I'll owe you a drink or three for that, I guess)

[rutthenut]

Regarding the Motronic M1.7 system fitted to the 24v, the Alfa Digest has some useful diagrams and descriptions too.
http://www.digest.net/alfa/FAQ/164/pb94/pb94-5.htm

[chris.richard]

I'd heard of EGR before, since I seem to recall something was on my old Jeep CJ7 for this purpose.

Anyway, is that what is labelled as 'Evaporation Solenoid Valve' on the Motronic 1.7 wiring diagrams I've kindly been sent? I guess I'll find out anyway when messing with the engine, but the terminology didn't flag anything to me until I saw your mention of EGR in here - is that what it is?

The evaporation solenoid valve I think feeds fumes from the fuel tank into the engine rather than unburnt fuel venting to the atmosphere. Might just be an American Emissions thing. Don't know if european models had them. Cardisc are an american setup.

[rutthenut]

Yep, looking at the Alfa Digest info, the evaporation solenoid is for fuel vapours.

Also spotted that the ECU has inputs and outputs for the aircon/heating system, to both increase idle to allow for load when turned on, and to instruct the heating system to reduce load when required too. Neat, but I don't even have a heater, let alone an electronic control system to manage it!

[rutthenut]

Plenty of other questions about the 24v installation, I'm sure.
Seems fair enough to tack them onto this Q4 thread at this time.

Next question - who has installed the 24-valve engine into their car (and what chassis and engine spec was used)?

The alternator on the 24v engine seems larger and appears to be mounted higher up in front of the engine. Will that fit into the Hawk/Transformer chassis in that position, or is a new mounting bracket required? Also, it has a grooved belt, not a V-belt as on the 12v. Can belts of that type be obtained in shorter lengths, as will be needed when power steering / air con pumps is removed from the engine?

Any other 'gotchas' to consider in upgrading from 12v to 24v engine?

The car I am taking the engine from does not have the 'Red Key' Alfa immobiliser, which I know is a pain to deal with.

What about the Lambda sensor(s) - I presume I would need to keep that in the system, so need to have that fitted into the exhaust system (manifold, downpipe, or where?). Is it possible to put in a dummy device that generates the expected signal otherwise?

[chris.richard]

Next question - who has installed the 24-valve engine into their car (and what chassis and engine spec was used)?

HF2000, I've put in engine from an automatic (DON'T DO IT!) but upgraded to the big runners, and Squadra chip. Lost all the ancillaries. ECU from a manual.

The alternator on the 24v engine seems larger and appears to be mounted higher up in front of the engine. Will that fit into the Hawk/Transformer chassis in that position, or is a new mounting bracket required?
I moved it to the front, fabricating a bracket partly from the original. Tight fit, but it goes. In the original place it would impede the bodywork.

Also, it has a grooved belt, not a V-belt as on the 12v. Can belts of that type be obtained in shorter lengths, as will be needed when power steering / air con pumps is removed from the engine?

No problems. available in everylength you can think of from a factors

Any other 'gotchas' to consider in upgrading from 12v to 24v engine?

?less room for header tank because of bigger heads

The car I am taking the engine from does not have the 'Red Key' Alfa immobiliser, which I know is a pain to deal with.

Good choice

What about the Lambda sensor(s) - I presume I would need to keep that in the system, so need to have that fitted into the exhaust system (manifold, downpipe, or where?).

I put one in the pipe from the rear bank. Might go into limp home mode without it.

Is it possible to put in a dummy device that generates the expected signal otherwise?

No idea

[rutthenut]

Picture here from Squadra Tuning web site is apparently of the Q4 engine. Shows the ancillaries too.

Chris - I take it you moved the alternator to the back of the engine, not the front as in your comment? Or did you move it lower at the front? Or to the 'side' somehow?
And how was the 'fabrication'? Cut and drill, or some welding involved?

Do you have an anti-roll bar in your car, and if so - does it clear the engine? Mine is off at the moment to make space, and will probably stay off for a while anyway.

[rutthenut]

Another site that has useful information for Alfa engines is alfapartscatalog.com

Two sections for the 164, with diagrams and part numbers

1994-95
http://alfapartscatalog.com/diagrms/9495/intakemanifolds2.html

1991-93
http://alfapartscatalog.com/diagrms/9193/manifolds.html

Plenty more for comparison if you want to see details of either model of car.

[rutthenut]

Are mods required for the rev counter to work from the 24v system?

My tacho had been modified to read for a six cylinder, not a four-pot, but that was on normal coil-driven signals. Is the output from the Motronic M1.7 engine management able to drive the (Fiat/Veglia) tacho, or does it need new internals of some sort?

Guess I might try connecting up a spare tacho into the 164 to find out...

[CorseChris]

John,

You'll need to do some minor mods to allow it to read the tach signal from the 24v ECU (rather than the coil -ve terminal as per 12V)

If you are OK with doing some minor mods to the PCB yourself, I'll send you the info. If not, send me the Tacho and I'll do it for you.

Cheers

Chris

[roger001]

Use a mappable ECU, one option is to use a basic OMEX/DTA this can cope with six cylinders if a ditributor is used. Keith Waite who races an Alfa 75 grafted a 12v ditributor to one of his 24v heads and therfore can run with a sensibly priced ECU and single coil with out having the £1000 plus cost of the ECU to cope with the distributorless ignition.

[rutthenut]

If you are OK with doing some minor mods to the PCB yourself, I'll send you the info. If not, send me the Tacho and I'll do it for you.

PCB mods? Not really my sort of thing, so I may take up your offer.
That is if I get the tacho out of the car. The spare(s) I have are all four-pot units, which is pretty useful for noise tests but not for accurate results!

Mind you, using a four-cylinder tacho on the six-cylinder engine does make you keep the revs down a bit, as the visual signal of 9000rpm is a strong clue to change gear, even though 6000rpm is more than fine for the Alfa V6. And that means the rev limit on the 24v would show as something like 10800rpm :eek:

[chris.richard]

Chris - I take it you moved the alternator to the back of the engine, not the front as in your comment? Or did you move it lower at the front? Or to the 'side' somehow?

sorry, lower at the front. http://www.stratossupersite.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=629&sort=1&cat=500&page=1

And how was the 'fabrication'? Cut and drill, or some welding involved?
Cut drill& a bit of weld. http://www.stratossupersite.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=381&sort=1&cat=500&page=3 http://www.stratossupersite.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=380&sort=1&size=medium&cat=500&page=3

Do you have an anti-roll bar in your car, and if so - does it clear the engine?

Yes & yes. Don't know if I need the ARB, but I've a minimum weight to get to, so every little helps.

[CorseChris]

John,
Send me a 4 pot unit & I'll convert/calibrate it for you.

Roger,
The Emerald M3DK ECU will do distributor or wasted spark dizzy-less ignition and fuelling for a V6 out of the box for about £650. Use a MAP sensor and lose the flappy AFM for some free power....well, you'd have to buy the sensor..but cheap power anyway.

The current version is here http://www.emeraldm3d.com/em_m3dk.html This is what I have on the Westfield at the moment. Did have an early version on the Marcos but the newer one is a lot more capable - even comes with logging software...

[rutthenut]

Great! Will send on a tacho once I get back home (Friday night on present plans).

Re. wasted spark ignition - is that usable on a six-cylinder engine, or might if fire off when fuel-air mixture is going into the engine?

[CorseChris]

John,

OK. I'll PM you my work address to send it to always someone in to take a parcel....well, I say always, looks like this place is doomed in the current round of BBC cuts. Anyone got a job for me?

Wasted spark is fine on the V6 - my 155 V6 has a 6 pole coil. I don't know how the cylinders are paired off the top of my head but I can always go look at the leads!

[Martin K]

Is there anything 'special' about the 164 Cloverleaf 12 valve engine?

[roger001]

see prev threads cams/compression ratio/ECU/AFM are all different.

[chris.richard]

Here's a pic of the intimate relationship between the 24v waterpump and the diagonal brace after it has been moved (Hawk) If the brace was made removeable, then changing waterpump and cambelt would be possible with the engine in.
Jerry Bailey must have his engine further left in the chassis to avoid moving this brace. The Hawk setup has an adapter on the driveshafts on both sides. The left side one is about15mm thick and the right side one 25 or so. If you moved the engine over 15mm, you could manage with just a thicker RHS one. The engine mounts on the chassis would have to be a bit different though. There must be a reason why Gerry Hawkridge didn't do that in the first place.

[rutthenut]

The Hawk adaptors cater for the different PCD sizes of the Alfa and Lancia CV joints. So there is a need to have a reasonable width on the lhs (unless different driveshafts were used).

The engine is also fitted forward a bit in the HF chassis, which has a minor benefit to weight distribution. This results in the driveshafts running at a bit of an angle too. It may be that Jerry's is fitted further back as well as possibly with a different left-to-right positioning.

[guy mayers]

Here's a pic of the intimate relationship between the 24v waterpump and the diagonal brace after it has been moved (Hawk) If the brace was made removeable, then changing waterpump and cambelt would be possible with the engine in.


With the 12v it is possible to change the cambelt and waterpump in situ. The first thing I had done on my installation was a belt change by an Alfa agent and it was a reasonable price as they could get at everything. The water pump packed up on the driveway after the first Italy trip I did and I managed to replace it without disturbing the cam belt or removing the engine. If anyone else tries this I would recommend replacing the pump seruring bolts with socket cap types! You'll find out why when you remove the pump!
Guy

[Arthur]

ECU swaps for power - I doubt it

Or not an awful lot, anyhow.
Reason being the mapping. The engine breathes what air it can. The map then fuels the car to suit airflow, and also specifies the ignition timing, and stuff like rev limiters.
Since the airflow is unchanged, you can only find more power by :-
Changing the ignition timing
Tweaking the mixture.
Extending the rev range.
This is viable for small increases cos the manufacturers set the ignition timing to be emissions friendly, and more so the later the model.
The mixture gives better power when a bit richer (about 11:1) rather than the economic setting the manufacturer has installed (probably 14:1 or higher depending on the engine combustion tolerance. So you can find power here, but at cost in economy.
Extending rev range - depends on the engine and the "lack of" reliability level you care to live with.
This is what things like Superchips do - they will advise extra power available with their chip. So if you don't get more air in, you won't find a lot of power, but you may find some.
The trick, as ever, is to get more air in, then set the fuelling accordingly.

All the best

[David May]

Totally agee Arthur; most 'chippers' post wild claims which are simply impossible. There are however a few ECUs which deliberately limit the power output for commercial reasons (to make you buy a more expensive variant!) but I'm not aware of A-R using this trick. If you do manage to get more air in (better filter, drive very deep underground...) the air-flow monitoring will normally do the correct fuelling for you.

[Martin K]

ECU swaps for power - I doubt it

Or not an awful lot, anyhow.
Reason being the mapping. The engine breathes what air it can. The map then fuels the car to suit airflow, and also specifies the ignition timing, and stuff like rev limiters.
Since the airflow is unchanged, you can only find more power by :-
Changing the ignition timing
Tweaking the mixture.
Extending the rev range.
This is viable for small increases cos the manufacturers set the ignition timing to be emissions friendly, and more so the later the model.
The mixture gives better power when a bit richer (about 11:1) rather than the economic setting the manufacturer has installed (probably 14:1 or higher depending on the engine combustion tolerance. So you can find power here, but at cost in economy.
Extending rev range - depends on the engine and the "lack of" reliability level you care to live with.
This is what things like Superchips do - they will advise extra power available with their chip. So if you don't get more air in, you won't find a lot of power, but you may find some.
The trick, as ever, is to get more air in, then set the fuelling accordingly.

All the best

Both Squadra and Superchips offer about a 5% increase in torque at 5000 rpm rising to 9% increase at 6500-7000 rpm. Not to be sneezed at. This is achieved, I understand, by optimizing the ignition timing and the fuel.

It must be remembered that this engine in standard tune, without any modifications, has emmission controls which comply with the very low levels demanded in California. In lean burn the mixture may well be 18:1 or weaker and unlikely to get richer than 14.7:1, when around 12.5:1 is what engine tuners usually aim for without a cat. If you look at what Porsche do, they produce generally 3 engines for each car. One is California spec, the next is USA spec and the final one is 'rest of the world'. The differences in power output are quite remarkable. In the early 90's (when the Alfa 24 valve was first around I believe) a USA spec Carrera engine produced 228 lbft of torque and 250 bhp. The rest of the world spec produced 243 lb/ft and 272 bhp. Entirely the same engine - same cam, same exhaust and cat, same CR - just different mapping and the same 9% increase in power that the aftermarket Alfa chippers claim. Seems quite feasible to me.

Also, Alfa produce a special ECU for the European Alfa GTV Cup racing series giving more torque, bhp and RPM than the standard engine (I'm still waiting to receive the spec - but I'll let you know when I do). These cars ran with no other mods, so why would Alfa produce a 'special' ECU if the standard mapping was optimised spot on?

another benefit would come from disabling the EGR, as this allows 'poisoned' air into the cylinders. EGR is controlled by the chip. With the better torque available at higher rpm there is obviously a benefit in increasing the rev range somewhat - Adie at AH says the engine is good, even with standard hydraulic cam followers, for 8000 rpm. Yes, wear will increase, yes, the loads are greater. And no, you won't get good power at 8000 rpm without other modifications to increase the amount of air the engine can get in at such high rpm - cam timing being critical. However the top end power could usefully be extended towards 8000 rpm even with standard cams by a good exhaust manifold which improves scavenging of exhaust gasses and the amount of fuel/air mixture taken into the cylinder at high rpm.

As you say, you won't get power from ECU modifications without losing economy - but that is an absolute fact of almost any power increase - you generally have to burn more fuel to get more power. You would certainly use more fuel and lose economy if you were able to increase the amount of air getting tnto the cylinders, for example, as you would have to add more fuel to keep the air/fuel ratio correct.

Martin

[chris.richard]

;) economy.


What's that then?

[shaun]

How can one calculate the 'best' length exhaust manifolds and/or exhaust pipes. Is it just a function of the inlet track length theory?

[David May]

By my reconings, a quoted 5% torque increase (which is probably nearer 3%) IS something to be sneezed at, especially if it costs £300+! You can gain or lose that much between a cold, wet day and a hot one! In my experience, you don't feel any changes under 15%.

[SUSIT]

How can one calculate the 'best' length exhaust manifolds and/or exhaust pipes. Is it just a function of the inlet track length theory?

I can give you the calculations used to produce the system fitted to the engine I bought from Dave Carson. All this stuff is begining to confuse the hell out of me. My Engine is rated (12Valve) at 256bhp at 7200 with 208 lb ft of torque around 5000 Grp A cams some mild head work, tuned exhaust with wolf 3D engine management but not sure about what AFM is fitted, Can anyone quote diameters for the versions available. : :confused:

[Martin K]

In my experience, you don't feel any changes under 15%.

.......... but the stopwatch never lies!

Also, Cosworth have just found another 8-10% power for their F1 engine this year and they are delighted! Bet that cost a bit more than 300 quid though..................

[Martin K]

By my reconings, a quoted 5% torque increase (which is probably nearer 3%) IS something to be sneezed at, especially if it costs £300+!

The Squadra graphs and figures show over 9%. If they are lying, then they are lying - but that is against all kinds of trading laws, so I doubt they are. As for the price, I guess it's a personal choice. I suppose it does work out at 15 quid per horsepower gained, which seems like a lot, but how much power can you add in some other way for £300??

[Martin K]

How can one calculate the 'best' length exhaust manifolds and/or exhaust pipes. Is it just a function of the inlet track length theory?

I could give you the theory - but Arthur will rip me to shreds!

It depends where in the rev range you want to get the benefit. You may want to add to your existing peak torque at the same revs, which will give you a similar feeling engine but with more power in the same power band, or you may want the exhaust to add power further up the rev band in order to extend your torque band so that it goes on to produce more power beyond the current peak bhp engine speed. You would need to raise the rev limiter to gain advantage from the latter option. I don't believe you could usefully improve the torque from the 24 valve engine below 4500 rpm by adding a manifold tuned to a lower engine speed than the existing peak torque speed, quoted generally as 5000 I believe.

[David May]

Sorry Martin, but the stopwatch is one of the biggest liars in the world, second only to rolling roads. I've worked on rolling road systems and have seen some of the tricks that they use to back up their claims! It may not be lying, but it's not the whole truth either! How many 'oil-additive' claims have you seen that 'proved' a 10% power gain? I agree with you that true torque always comes at a price, but at least you get some real metal in your hands to justify it.

[chris.richard]

The Squadra graphs and figures show over 9%. If they are lying, then they are lying - but that is against all kinds of trading laws, so I doubt they are.

Their graph is of one engine, not an average of several. (I asked them) They are only going to publish the graph from the best result they've managed to produce, so it may not be representative of their average achievement.

[Martin K]

Sorry Martin, but the stopwatch is one of the biggest liars in the world, second only to rolling roads. I've worked on rolling road systems and have seen some of the tricks that they use to back up their claims! It may not be lying, but it's not the whole truth either! How many 'oil-additive' claims have you seen that 'proved' a 10% power gain? I agree with you that true torque always comes at a price, but at least you get some real metal in your hands to justify it.

If you have driven competitively you will know that the stopwatch is the only thing that will tell if your modifications have been worthwhile. A 5% advantage is worth something.
What is the 'real metal' you seek - and can get - for £300? If it is air that gives us the power we need - why do you want metal?

[Martin K]

Their graph is of one engine, not an average of several. (I asked them) They are only going to publish the graph from the best result they've managed to produce, so it may not be representative of their average achievement.

It may not - but what are the production variations on the standard Alfa engine? They (Alfa) have to quote a figure that is achievable on ALL engines - so some will be better. I am pretty sure that the deviation will be minimal given modern production techniques.

[chris.richard]

Somebody on the forum, I can't remember who builds V6 engines in one of the big producers works in the UK. Do they know what the spread of power is in a production run of motors is? I'll suggest +/- 3% as a guesstimate to start.

[SUSIT]

Somebody on the forum, I can't remember who builds V6 engines in one of the big producers works in the UK. Do they know what the spread of power is in a production run of motors is? I'll suggest +/- 3% as a guesstimate to start.


Chris,
surely 3% varation will be about the amount of difference you would get on a hot or cold day, In our case each instilation is unique to each car we may have much larger diffrences, Its all getting very academic for a Stratos replica. We use different gear ratios, some run larger altanators, a few have air conditioning pumps and lastly very few compete with there cars, which is a great shame. Interesting topic all the same. A clinic day at a rolling road with a number of cars followed by some performance testing at a track would be interesting

Stephen

[Martin K]

I have a good mate with a correctly calibrated Bosch rolling road who is also a Superchip dealer. I will get him to temporarily upgrade my ECU and do before and after power runs. Then I will post the results here, then we will know what the %age gain (if any) there is from a chip upgrade. As the absolute power is not relevent, just the increase, the choice of rolling road and the condition of my engine will not be of relevence.

OK?

[Martin K]

Chris,
Its all getting very academic for a Stratos replica.

This thread started about the 24 valve AR engine and it's ECU though.......................

[chris.richard]

Chris,
surely 3% varation will be about the amount of difference you would get on a hot or cold day, In our case each instilation is unique to each car we may have much larger diffrences, Its all getting very academic for a Stratos replica. We use different gear ratios, some run larger altanators, a few have air conditioning pumps and lastly very few compete with there cars, which is a great shame. Interesting topic all the same. A clinic day at a rolling road with a number of cars followed by some performance testing at a track would be interesting

Stephen

Steven, i meant 3% as the variation on a batch of engines coming off a production line. I agree there'll be a huge difference between our cars.

[rutthenut]

Cut drill& a bit of weld. http://www.stratossupersite.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=381&sort=1&cat=500&page=3 http://www.stratossupersite.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=380&sort=1&size=medium&cat=500&page=3

Chris - time for some more silly questions.

With your modified alternator bracket, is there any adjustment available to swing the alternator in/out and tighten up the drive belt?

What did you do about the oil cooler? Normal mounting is ahead of the engine, which isn't great in the Strat. Have you relocated it to the rear (different pipework, obviously), or used an oil/water intercooler in the system?

Side question - what is the size of the oil pipe banjos on the oil filter housing take-off? I'd like to order different pipes and don't know the sizes needed...

Regarding the engine management loom, there is one wire (yellow/black) coming from the connector and going to an 'electronic anti-theft system', according to the wiring diagram I've got. That is a dotted line on the diagram, but I will need to know if it is required, and if so, should it go to earth or to 12v feed? I don't have the Red Key Alfa immobiliser system on the car, but also haven't worked out where this wire goes to in the dash loom. Any clues?

[chris.richard]

OK John, here goes.

Yes the alternator mount is adjustable I can't remember if the adjusting strut came from the Twink or the 164.

[chris.richard]

Oil cooler.
Mounted top right of the engine. Somebody suggested there might be problems with high oil cooler positions, but they didn't say why, so I took that as BS.

I've tried to duct some air from the side intake to the cooler, but I don't know if that'll work.

[chris.richard]

Yellow black wire from pin 81 of ECU via connector G285 to electronic anti theft system (G241) pin 1. I've left it unconnected and it all works.

Dotted lines mean they are wires to optional parts not fitted on all models.

[chris.richard]

Oil cooler piping.

Threads on engine are M18 X 1.5. I used The following from Think Automotive for the engine end:

1/2BSP female 90 (HEFP93-8 £5.25) 2 off

1/2BSP to M18 adapter (MMS5-8-85 £1.53) 2 off

The Alfa oil cooler threads are M22 X 1.5. I used the following from the same source:

M22 female hose ends 90° 2 off (07074-13-8 £6.55)

[rutthenut]

Thanks, that's really useful.

What about the Lambda sensor?

Have you mounted that into the exhaust somewhere, or can it be left off from the system at all?

[rutthenut]

I can't remember if the adjusting strut came from the Twink or the 164.

Well, the 24v has a fixed mounting for the alternator (and I hadn't spotted that adjuster on your other photos). So it probably came off the Twink.

But the 12v uses a smaller bracket (and a smaller alternator) which has a similar adjusting strut on it, which can bolt on to the 24v block.

Unfortunately, the pulleys are different (12v: V belt, 24v: grooved belt) and the mounting points are quite different too. So I've re-used the 12v alternator (a much lighter affair) and put the grooved pulley onto it. That does not line up correctly with the other pulleys though, so I will take a bit off the back of the alternator lugs to get the correct alignment.

Other oddity is that the 12v alternator pulley uses a key to hold it on the shaft, whereas the 24v pulley does not. I guess it would be possible to machine the 23v pulley to add a keyway, and perhaps take some material off the back to get the correct alignment, but I don't have facilities to do that...

[rutthenut]

Other silly question:

I presume that the oil pressure switch on the 24v also works in a way that would require a relay for normal operation of the warning lamp?

In which case I'll swap the sender for the high pressure one from my 12v (if it fits).

[strat6v]

My lambda probe is going in the link pipe from the rear bank of cylinders.
On the donor, the pipes are double walled(insulated), I'm assuming this is to keep the gas temp as high as possible for the cat.

[rutthenut]

Yet another wiring question:

The evaporation control valve (I belive) on the 164 is controlled by a small solenoid valve of some sort, in the inner wing area at the front of the car. Obviously, I won't be using that part of the system on mine.

Question is, will the engine management function happily if this solenoid is not present - i.e. not connected - or will it be needed to complete a circuit?

[David May]

The ECU monitors the presence of the evaporation valve but I don't know if it sets the warning light on for all markets. If the light does stay on, you could trick it with a light load (relay or small bulb.)

[chris.richard]

Thanks, that's really useful.

What about the Lambda sensor?

Have you mounted that into the exhaust somewhere, or can it be left off from the system at all?

I mounted it into the pipe from the rear bank

[chris.richard]

it would be possible to machine the 23v pulley

Got a problem in the head area with that engine John? :D

[chris.richard]

Other silly question:

I presume that the oil pressure switch on the 24v also works in a way that would require a relay for normal operation of the warning lamp?

In which case I'll swap the sender for the high pressure one from my 12v (if it fits).

I put a conventional high pressure switch in instead.

[chris.richard]

Yet another wiring question:

The evaporation control valve (I belive) on the 164 is controlled by a small solenoid valve of some sort, in the inner wing area at the front of the car. Obviously, I won't be using that part of the system on mine.

Question is, will the engine management function happily if this solenoid is not present - i.e. not connected - or will it be needed to complete a circuit?
I've just left it off on mine, but the final tinkering isn't finished yet. I haven't investigated fault codes from the ECU, I thought I'd get it plugged into an analyser when it's mobile.

[rutthenut]

Got a problem in the head area with that engine John? :D

A head problem, maybe? :)

Or perhaps just finger trouble, which doesn't bode well for my ongoing [declining] career!!!

[rutthenut]

The ECU monitors the presence of the evaporation valve but I don't know if it sets the warning light on for all markets. If the light does stay on, you could trick it with a light load (relay or small bulb.)

Well, perhaps I'll start off with plugging in the solenoid valve. Then - maybe - see if it makes any difference when it is disconnected. I don't have an ecu warning light to worry about, anyway!

[chris.richard]

I don't have an ecu warning light to worry about, anyway!

I've wired one in beside the ECU - thought it might be useful for getting the flash codes out, but I haven't used it yet.

[strat6v]

I,m assuming the solenoid opens just to let the engine suck out any fuel vapours from the tank? If this is the case could you just connect the solenoid to the loom but not have it piped up to anything?

[rutthenut]

I,m assuming the solenoid opens just to let the engine suck out any fuel vapours from the tank? If this is the case could you just connect the solenoid to the loom but not have it piped up to anything?

That's just what I'm planning to do. The solenoid valve is fairly small, and I did keep it off the car, so will start off by plugging it in to keep the system happy.

[rutthenut]

I put a conventional high pressure switch in instead.

And there was I, hoping to use the almost-new switch from my old 12v engine, and they have totally different threads :(

Chris, you seem to have most other details, so do you know what thread is used on the 24v engine? Or better still, a part number to order a suitable switch?

[rutthenut]

Yes the alternator mount is adjustable I can't remember if the adjusting strut came from the Twink or the 164.

Have you fitted a smooth belt to the alternator/water pump, or a grooved one? In the photo, it appears to be flat.

Been down to my local motor factors to try and get a grooved drive belt of the size I want (longer than 96cm and shorter than 110cm) but they don't have belts by size, only for specific applications. And a 24v HF3000 isn't on their list :-(

Will have to try some other motor factors, but Easter weekend isn't a good time to try and get parts from anywhere.

Same with hoses and bends - they don't have anything other than straight hose or specific car fittings. So now I'm putting together an expensive shopping list for a load of Samco silicone hose (straights, reducers, elbows, hose joiners) to connect up all the pipes and components.

Back to the garage now...

[Martin K]

John you have a private message.

Martin

[Stratos]

Been down to my local motor factors to try and get a grooved drive belt of the size I want (longer than 96cm and shorter than 110cm) but they don't have belts by size, only for specific applications. And a 24v HF3000 isn't on their list :-(



John,

When I had the Volumex engine in my Allora I needed a new belt and didn't know what to get.

My local factors let me just look through one of their cataloges, and I just scanned through the pages until I found one of approximately the right length, and with the right shape grooves.

Took a bit of time, but I finally found something.

I'm sure with a bit of gentle persuation your local factors would let you browse their book. If not, let me know and I'll go down to mine and try and get it for you.

[chris.richard]

John, my belt is the flat, ribbed kind. They come with a variety of numbers of ribs (5,7,9..) as well as lengths. I think I got mine as Dave suggests, looking at a catalogue, which listed under length, not just application. Halfords have them hanging out on racks, and if you take a tape measure.... ;)

The Samco flexi hose makes things easier, if more expensive! :( Be prepared for a long wait if ordering anything other than blue. Merlin were the cheapest for Samco.

My low oil pressure switch seems to be Demon Thieves number MOCEWS/1C according to my invoice (2003). I don't see that number in the current catalogue though. Haven't got a note of the thread here, I might have in the garage.

[David May]

I did the same thing at my local factor with no problems. I went for the narrowest 5-rib belt since the small alternator and water pump abosrb very little power and sat it in the middle of the pulleys where it has stayed for 40,000kms.

[rutthenut]

My low oil pressure switch seems to be Demon Thieves number MOCEWS/1C according to my invoice (2003). I don't see that number in the current catalogue though. Haven't got a note of the thread here, I might have in the garage.

Think Automotive list a number of these switches. One of those has part number EWS/1C, so I guess that is the same Mocal part as from DT?

http://www.thinkauto.com/acatalog/Price_List_Pressure_switches_13.html
EWS/1C low pressure switch 20 psi £12.98 (Excluding: VAT at 17.5%)

Doesn't indicate the thread size there either, but it could be worth a try.

Especially as I'll order the other oil cooler fittings from them. You never know, they might be able to confirm the details for me.

[chris.richard]

Think Automotive list a number of these switches. One of those has part number EWS/1C, so I guess that is the same Mocal part as from DT?



Looks like a reasonable assumption. :)

[rutthenut]

The Samco flexi hose makes things easier, if more expensive! :( Be prepared for a long wait if ordering anything other than blue. Merlin were the cheapest for Samco.

Not the cheapest according to the 2005 catalogues I have here!

SHL32 (32mm straight hose, 1m length) Merlin: 23.59, Rally Design: 18.87
SFL32 (32mm superflex hose, 1m length) Merlin: 31.78, Rally Design: 25.42
SHL38 (38mm straight hose, 1m length) Merlin: 28.62, Rally Design: 22.90
SFL38 (38mm superflex hose, 1m length) Merlin: 35.89, Rally Design: 28.71

VAT to be added to both sets of prices...

That's quite a difference. Of course, that doesn't mean they all have the required items in stock though.

Merlin Motorsport at www.merlinmotorsport.co.uk Tel: 01249 782101
Rally Design at www.rallydesign.co.uk Tel: 01795 531871

[chris.richard]

Oh well, I did say "were"!

Glad I don't have to buy more.

How's the foot doing?

[rutthenut]

How's the foot doing?

'Kin painful!

Seems more bruised and more swollen each day, which I'm less than happy about :(

[CorseChris]

This should probably go in the suppliers section....but Highbury Hose make silicone hose to the same spec as Samco...for an awful lot less.....of course, I didn't find this out until way after buying lots of Samco.


http://www.highburyhose.co.uk/Untitled/Silicone_Hosex.html

[Martin K]

I had some fun at the rolling road yesterday with my 1993 24 valve Cloverleaf, which has proudly accomplished 114000 odd miles.

First of all we did a run with no alterations to get a benchmark figure. The temperature was 23 degrees and we got 239.4 bhp at the flywheel, 204 bhp at the wheels in fourth gear (transmision losses were greater in the lower gears and we didn't try fifth).

I was at Sanspeed in Bexleyheath - the owner and his family are long standing friends of mine as we have been members of the same car club for over 25 years and share an interest in rallying. The rolling road is Bosch and regularly calibrated. I know different rolling roads can give different figures but I have always used this one, so it is my personal benchmark rolling road and the figures it delivers have always met with approval from the various engine builders I have used over the years.

Sanspeed are also Superchip dealers, so Graham Sansom downloaded their map for the QV, coded a chip, and we tried another run. The results were disappointing in that the power curve was identical to the standard map! So a call was made to Superchips to ask for an explanation (13 extra bhp had been expected). We tried another map, same result. Then a third map - this gave about 5 bhp extra at the wheels throughout the rev range from 3000 to 7200 rpm where the limiter cut in. Not impressed, we asked Superchips to try again and they changed the map further in the direction of the previous map. On the power run this delivered exactly the same 5 bhp we achieved with the previous map.

We then went back to the previous map and lifted the rev limiter to see what happened. The power continued to build as we went past 7200 rpm to our new red line of 7500 rpm - not one I intend to use on a regular basis, but I do consider myself a driver skilled enough to change gear at any engine speed I choose upto 7200!

Conclusions:

1) The QV PROBABLY has a different map from the standard 24 valve engine, as well as the known different inlet runners, to achieve it's output, as the Superchip map we first tried is known to add power to the 24 valve non-QV engine but failed to give any advantage on my engine.

2) The map as standard for the QV has considerable advance in the ignition. Superchips normally find power by adding ignition advance, but in this case map 1 and 2 that we tried, with ever increasing advance, failed to add any power. In the third and fourth maps we tried the ignition was RETARDED from the Superchip map which is known to add power to non-QV engines.

3) The ignition controller on the standard QV ECU relies heavily on the knock sensors to correct the map by limitting the true level of advance in real time. The effect of this seems to be that the correct advance required is never achieved because the knock sensor circuit is continually retarding the ignition under hard acceleration, and the feedback it provides retards the ignition to such a degree (pardon the pun!) that full power cannot be achieved.

4) By retarding the ignition sufficiently via the map to avoid running into the knock sensor retardation under full power (1.5 degrees in this case) allows a much more useful advance curve to be achieved, as it avoids the over-correction provided by the retardation signals from the knock sensor circuit.

You will see that, if the effect of the knock sensor circuitry is to retard the ignition by 5 degrees, and then let it slowly advance towards the map figure until detonation is detected once again, the ignition is going to spend more time retarded by upto 5 degrees than if the maximum advance is retarded by ony 1.5 degrees and the ignition advance never gets knocked back by the antiknock circuitry. Of course, even with the new map, the knock sensor circuit will still keep the engine safe should knocking occur due to poor fuel or whatever.

5) I'm going to fill my tank with 99 RON from Tesco and try the original Superchip map again, of course after a benchmark run using the standard Alfa chip. Watch this space and I will let you know the results!

Martin

[rutthenut]

5) I'm going to fill my tank with 99 RON from Tesco and try the original Superchip map again, of course after a benchmark run using the standard Alfa chip. Watch this space and I will let you know the results!

Martin - any updates on 24v engine figures?

[rutthenut]

Looks like a reasonable assumption. :)

But - as might have been expected - it was a false assumption!

The switch I got from Mocal had a different thread again.
Using the standard switch for now, but need to wire in a relay to get the correct 'sense' for the warning light.

If I ever work out what the correct part is, I'll try to post it here..

[Martin K]

Martin - any updates on 24v engine figures?

I forgot to update this!

With Tesco 99 RON and the Superchip I now get just over 249 bhp flywheel, 214 at the wheels in 4th. On 95 RON it drops down to the previous 239 bhp.

Although I regularly shop at Tesco's I don't always put in the 99 RON fuel. But when I feel like driving hard I do! The chip and the 99 RON fuel together give better acceleration and the engine feels crisper than with the 95 RON.