Best Laid Plans!!!!!!

[catswhiskers]

Well the way things have been progressing, I had planned this weekend to drive the car out of the garage under its own power and spend some time in the fresh air fitting door seals and other such tasks. Well, even though the engine has run several times, it now refuses to start. :mad: Bugger.
I'm no auto electrician but, with the help of a couple of members on here, I have carried out some basic checks to no avail. The bloody thing refuses to fire.
HELP anyone. What I really need is a visiting auto electrician familiar with Bosch motronic systems I suppose but while I search for one, heres the story to date.
Engine last ran about 4 weeks ago with no problems. Since then, I have finished installing the dash and instruments and the lighting. All these systems work OK (although I cant say on the tacho yet obviously).
I have 12v going to the coil +ve terminal with ignition ON. I also still have 12 v when cranking engine so that seems OK. I have continuity from the coil -ve terminal to terminal 1 on the ECU plug so no breaks there.
Despite this, I have no spark at the plugs so tracing back, I removed the HT lead fron the dizzy end of the coil lead. Again, no spark when cranking.
Right I hear you say, change the coil, been there, done that. No difference with 2 other coils.
So, change the ECU, been there, done that. No difference.
Yes, I have fuel pumping, but then again, that wouldn't influence the spark. I have cleaned the crank sensor, no difference.
You can tell that I'm running short on ideas now cant you. Have I missed something, no matter how obvious or simple?
Is it likely that the additional wiring I have installed would have any influence??. Just to try and eliminate that, I have now unplugged the dash and intrument binnacle because that wasn't connected when I last ran the engine. However, this didn't make any difference either. :confused:
All sugeestions are welcome, no matter how silly they may seem.

Mick

[Sando]

Hi Mick
A bit obvious but have you got a spare crank sensor you can try?
Rob

[catswhiskers]

Fraid not Rob, although I understood that these units are usually very reliable. Might be able to get one from my local Italian breaker man.

Mick.

[SUSIT]

Do you know for certin that your spare ecu is working?

[catswhiskers]

All I know is that it was working OK when removed from a running car.

Mick.

[guy mayers]

Do you know anyone with a car you could chuck the ECU into? That will quickly eliminate one possibility.
If you are thinking about a continuity check on the crank sensor be very careful as I think they operate on millivolts and you could burn it out. Try checking for continuity from the ECU multiplug to the sensor plug and then try changing the sensor.
What state is the battery in? I find that a slightly discharged one can fail to start the car despite turning it over.
Guy

[SUSIT]

Mick I have a spare engine lying about. Its a 12 valve but I could lend you a crank sensor if its easy got at
Stephen

[Swamprat33]

Mick, I have a spare ecu you can try if needed.
Hope you get it sorted soon
Tim

[catswhiskers]

Thanks for your replies to date everyone.
Guy,
Good point about trying the ECU in another car to eliminate it. The only one near me with a 3 litre is Bernard. If you read this, Phil, how would you feel about me popping over just to try things.?
Tha battery is brand new and has only started the engine a couple of times.
Stephen,
A spare crank sensor would be useful at this stage, again just to eliminate from my list. Its easy to get at and sits to the right of the crank pulley held in place (I think) by two cap head screws.
Tim,
Thanks for the offer of a spare ECU. Having already tried a spare, I find it hard to believe that it would be that but who knows. Stranger things have happened. I may take you up on that but I'll let you know.

Keep the ideas coming. Thanks.
Mick

[Stratos]

Mick,

I used to have a strange situation on my Allora when I was running the standard ECU.

It would turn over, run the fuel pumps, everything but START.

Tested everything - just like you, but even including changing ECUs because I had 2 spare.

I got the car working in a weird way.

With the ignition switched on, and the car turned over once, I would disconnect the ECU and then reconnect it again.

It would then fire up.

Never traced the cause of the problem, and it was intermittent.

Don't know if that will help you, but might be worth a try.

[catswhiskers]

Well Dave,
As they say, truth can be stranger than fiction. There is no reason why I shouldnt try it. Did you leave the ignition on when unplugging the ECU or not? :confused:

Mick

[CorseChris]

Mick,

Can you remove the tacho feed from the coil -ve easily? What I'm getting at is to isloate the engine electronics from the car as much as possible. All it really needs to run is the main 12v & ignition switched feeds to the ECU loom, after that, it's all self-contained.

I'm thinking it's possibly the tacho wiring??. Another possibility might be the multiway ECU connector - the teminals can push back inside sometimes. Take the cover off it and check.

[Stratos]

Well Dave,
As they say, truth can be stranger than fiction. There is no reason why I shouldnt try it. Did you leave the ignition on when unplugging the ECU or not? :confused:

Mick

Yes, it only worked if you left the ignition switched on.

[Bernard]

Mick
no problem just give me a call.
see PM
Cheers
Bernard

[catswhiskers]

Dave, thanks for that.

Bernard, Thanks, I'll give you a call later.

Chris, Yes I thought about the tacho wiring but having unplugged the instrument binnacle completely, I assumed ( :eek: ) that would isolate it. I can remove the terminal from the coil easily enough anyhow so will put on the 'to do' list.

Thanks.
Mick.

[catswhiskers]

Well Bernard very kindly let me check both ECU's on his car and both work fine so that eliminates them from my enquiries.
Next !!!!!!! :confused:

[Swamprat33]

I don't suppose you accidentally let some smoke escape from your wires? :p

[catswhiskers]

Not that I'm aware of Tim :D My hair has started to fall out though. :eek:

[CorseChris]

Hi Mick,

Did you try removing the tacho feed wire from the coil? Also, I'd double-check the 2-pole plug on the crank trigger. Pull back the rubber boot on both plug & socket and make sure the terminals are fully home. You can safely do a resistance check on the CPS using a DVM but don't do a battery & bulb type continuity test on it.

Double-check (swap) all the relays/fuses associated with the ECU wiring. Don't assume that because a relay pulls in, it is working, just swap it. Same for fuses (ask me some time!).

You've eliminated the ECU, so it can't really be much else other than the engine loom. Also check engine earths around the plenum. Anything (at all) that you have unplugged/replugged since it last ran? Check these too.....and did you check the ECU loom multiway connector for pushed back pins??

[catswhiskers]

Hi Chris,
This afternoons agenda is to call and pick up new Motronic relays & spare fuses. Disconnect tacho wire from coil, check engine plugs for tightness and smear contacts with conductive grease, then try again. I have checked existing fuses and all seems OK. I think I'll also get a new coil HT lead too just to cover that one.
Watch this space. :)

[CorseChris]

Keep us posted Mick. The only things that can cause the lack of sparks on the 12V would be dead ECU (covered), no power (still possible), CPS (still possible) or a 'simple' wiring fault (bad ECU earth, bad power feed to ECU, bad CPS feed to ECU). Bad temp sender woudn't do it, bad AFM wouldn't, bad TPS wouldn't, bad IAC wouldn't.

You'll kick yourself (or somehting) when you find it........ :)

[catswhiskers]

:mad: Well the towel is well and truly thrown in. :mad:

New motronic relay, new coil HT lead, all engine plugs checked and terminals smeared with conductive grease, all ECU terminals checked for fit and position.
Still nothing.
Engine cranks willingly, still got power into coil. Bugger.
Given up now. I am convinced it is a wiring conflict somewhere but I will never find it so I've called on a local Bosch diagnostic engineer to come over Friday. I dont care what it is now, I just want it fixed.
Watch this space.

Mick :(

[CorseChris]

Doh.

One quick way to prove the coil & it's 12v feed would be to splash the coil -ve to ground (this is all the ECU does anyway). You should get a spark. By the way, don't hold the contact when you do this, use insulated grips or the like!

Pity I'm not a bit closer or I'd come have a look.

Did you replace the fuses??

[catswhiskers]

Yes Chris,
Relaced every fuse, even the ones that work the lights.
On the coil, I removed the plug from the ECU and connected the meter between the coil -ve and the corresponding terminal in the plug. Got continuity. Then connected the terminal to ground and got 12v at the plug end so 12v is getting to the ECU OK. :confused:
At least I can carry on with door fitting and trimming and leave the wiring to the experts now. Cant believe how long it takes to finish the 'little' jobs. It's definitely coming out of the garage this weekend. Even if I have to push it out. :rolleyes:

[CorseChris]

Err, I might be misunderstanding this Mick....

Unplug ECU. Test continuity from coil -ve to pin 1 of the ECU & OK.

Leave ECU unplugged, ignition on, short coil -ve to ground and still get +12v at pin 1???? If so, this is wrong....but I suspect I'm mis-reading what you've said to be honest.


It's starting to sound like a bad earth maybe..... Do you have the wiring diagram for the ECU?? It really is pretty simple in terms of getting it connected up and running (as you know, since it has already run), so there can't be a lot wrong now. Also, did you shorten the engine loom like some folk have?? Could be a problem in the join if so,

[catswhiskers]

Chris,
I'm not sure if I explained myself very weel either. I have 12v going in to the coil +ve terminal with ignition on.
I switched ignition off, unplugged the ECU and checked continuity from coil -ve terminal to terminal 1 ( I think) in the ECU plug. That was OK.
With the ignition switched on, I then put the meter between pin 1 in the ECU plug and earth and showed 12v. I didn't do any measurements from the ECU itself. I was just trying to confirm that I had a 12v supply going in to it.

At least I think thats what I did. :D

[CorseChris]

Ah, OK, got that. Sounds OK. Did you try splashing the coil -ve to ground with ignition on to see if you get a spark OK?? I'm sure you will from what you describe.

Pin 1 of the ECU is the coil driver output. Seeing 12v on this pin with everything connected and switched on, but engine not running (or turning over) is normal but doesn't prove conclusively that the supply to the ECU is present. The coil +12 feed is taken direct from the green/black switched feed from the car. The 15A fused feed fed from the same point on the car then powers the fuel pump (via its relay), energises the main ECU relay which in turn powers the ECU pin 35, the injector common power, the evaporation solenoid (if you have one).


Permanent 12v on pin 12. Grounds on pins 5, 13,16 & 27 (again, a bit fuzzy).

If you get really stuck, I have the complete engine loom, ECU, sensors etc for my V6 that you could try. It only really needs 3 connections to the car. Permanent +12, switched +12 and ground.

Have you retained the standard wiring for the whole ECU/fuel pump/relays etc or was it modified in any way??

[catswhiskers]

thanks Chris,

I didn't try splashing the coil to earth. I don't generally like this that fizz and spark. You never know what damage you are doing (well I dont anyway)
The engine loom is as it came off the Alfa and has not been shortened or modified in any way I am aware of. John Davidson just took it away to fit the relevant engine plugs to suit the Corse loom.
Hopefully, all will become clear tomorrow when the engineer has been. He has all the Bosch diagnostic gear so he may well plug in and find error codes. We will see.

Mick

[CorseChris]

Mick,

As long as the ECU is unplugged, all you'd be doing is working the coil...but don't fret if you'd rather not, I'm sure the Bosch expert will get it gripped pretty quickly.

For future reference, it's very simple to make your own error code reader for the ECU in a 12V motor. It's just a press-to-make switch and a bulb. Details available on request......

Best of luck anyway, and keep us posted.

I'll stand by my comment though - you'll kick something when you find it :)

[catswhiskers]

[QUOTE


I'll stand by my comment though - you'll kick something when you find it :)[/QUOTE]


Yes and dont I know it. :D

Mick

[Bernard]

cat's
sorry we didnt sort it but the beer was good !
Bern
ps got all 5 gears ok !!!!

[catswhiskers]

No problem Bernard, it was nice to see you and Sando anyway and have a chat over a cold one. I thought the 'catswhiskers' curse had got you when you stuck in 5th on the drive. Must say I'm glad it cleared itself. I'm also impressed by the way it pulled of the drive in 5th. Just goes to show the torque of these motors.
Nice one. And good luck on Saturday. :D

Mick

[Bernard]

cat's
makes you wonder why we bother with the first 4 gears !!!
I think will use first second and third on saturday though the times should be better !
Cheers
Bernard

[SUSIT]

Mick,
how you getting on with the lack of spark, did you get the catch I sent and lastly do you want to borrow a crank sensor?
Regards
Stephen

[catswhiskers]

Me again.
Much happier now. Stephen, yes I got the catch thanks. Its radiused and fitted to the car. As you will see, the car made its first journey today. Out of the garage, up the drive and back. Pleased to say all systems seem OK.
So I hear you all asking, what was the problem?
Believe it or not, a faulty Motronic relay, even though I fitted a new one (which turned out to be faulty too) plus the relay block which it plugged into had two terminals which had 'pushed out' of the back and were no longer making contact. Simple enough but not something I would have thought of. So 10 minutes and £30 well spent and it burst into life. :D

Jobs left? well roof spoiler to fit, headlights to set, a few more edges to raduis off and (I think) that is about it. No doubt I'll find a few more things but think I'll get the SVA paperwork sent in. No point in waiting any longer. Faint heart........
:rolleyes: So marks out of 10??? :rolleyes:

Thanks everyone for help and encouragement so far.

Mick

[Chris J]

Mick

Well it's got to be 10 out of 10.

'Mind you, I'd give you 10 just for the speed of build. I know there's a lot of small(ish) things still to do but just how long HAS it taken from delivery of the kit to now?

I remember when we were all looking at it in your garage last winter and Chris Smith saying you were'nt even 50% of the way there. And he should know?

Well done!

[catswhiskers]

Thanks Chris,
The kit was actually delivered the week before Christmas and the build began in the Christmas holidays. That makes it about 7 months. (mind you I did have two weeks in Finland in March :D :D )
I doubt if the build will ever be complete but thats what makes these things so enjoyable isnt it. Always something to tinker with on a cold rainy evening.

Mick

[Swamprat33]

Looks bl**dy good Mick.

Not too sure about the yellow/black steerring wheel though - looks like you pinched it from one of the Saxo boys :p

When can we expect to see it wearing it's logo's?

Cheers

Tim

[Martin K]

Believe it or not, a faulty Motronic relay, even though I fitted a new one (which turned out to be faulty too) plus the relay block which it plugged into had two terminals which had 'pushed out' of the back and were no longer making contact.

So tell us more - which relay was it - what does this relay supply current to?

Martin

[catswhiskers]

Martin, it was the motronic relay. I believe it controls/is controlled by the ECU. Somewhere along the line it was clicking but not triggering the circuit to/from the ecu so no spark. I have a spare now and have checked it works.

Tim, I'm hoping to check the draft layout of the decals this week. If all is right with size etc. then I should have them by next weekend. :)
Not long now hopefully :D
Mick

[rutthenut]

As I recall, there are two relays in the 12v Motronic setup.

One of these is simply for the fuel pump supply.

The other is a 'special' relay that incorporates a diode within the circuitry.

From memory, they cost around £30 from an Alfa dealer. No doubt much cheaper elsewhere. When looking at the pair of relays in the Alfa installation, I think you'll find that this one has a diagonal red stripe on the top (looks like marker pen to me).

I don't know if a failed diode in this relay would cause a problem, but I can imagine it would allow current to flow where and when it shouldn't. Or else why have it?

Glad to see that this electrical gremlin was fixed.

I recall that Rowland had problems with the female connectors on a relay block, where they had pushed out as the relay was inserted. In his case, I have a feeling that the female connectors used were missing the 'tang' that locks them in place.

[catswhiskers]

You are correct John. The relay that failed was the one with the red stripe. The fuel pump relay was fine. I suspect that the fault would lie with the diode but dont really know. My local Bosch agent has these relays at £9 each. Thats a bit better than the Alfa dealers at £30. :D

Mick

[David May]

I put an chunky external diode in a modified fuse holder on my fuse box to reduce the number of different types.
I too made errors with relay and fuse holder connectors. There are several different 'Faston' females with tabs all over the place - use the wrong one and it inevitably pushes out when you're not watching!

[Media]

The car looks fantastic well done. I like the interior looks the part. I took the car to Llantrisant near Cardiff last Friday and failed the SVA test, the results of which I will post on this site.

Geraint

[catswhiskers]

Thanks for the kind words Geraint. Sorry to hear about your SVA test. :( To be honest, I'm quite resigned to the fact that if I fail the test, at least I come away with a constructive list of 'must do' jobs and the re-test fee is hardly a major expense anyhow.
Look forward to reading your experience soon.

Mick

[CorseChris]

That's looking damn fine Mick - nice one.

Fingers crossed for a speedy SVA appointment... (& pass).


FWIW, I reckon you can use a standard relay in both places with the ML4.1 Motronic. Other installations need the diode to stop the relay being 'back powered', but that's not possible in this case. Can't for the life of me see why they used it.......

[catswhiskers]

Funny you should say that Chris. The electrician said 'I dont know what the diode is for, it doesn't do anything.'
Still, to be on the safe side, I now have a spare one too. :)

SVA paperwork filled in, just double checking everything. :rolleyes:

[David May]

I too find the diode an overkill. It could however save damage to a badly designed ECU caused by the enormous flyback voltages generated when switching off the solenoids and valves. (Any decent ECU should be internally protected against spikes.)
But you can be sure that they didn't do it just to increase the cost of the car, so somebody must have damaged one once!

[CorseChris]

I thought of the spike suppression....but it won't do it wired as it is...and none of the feeds to the ECU itself are connected to the same point anyway...

..so I still can't see a reason for it. I must be missing something.....

[Sando]

Well done mick, looks great and glad your man got it sorted so quickly.

I was just looking at the pics and thinking about SVA again. A couple of constructive thoughts....Do you have your sidelights in the headlamps? (I'm sure you do, so ok.) also do your front fogs come on only with the lights on too? they would check that one. (not supposed to just be wired to a separate switch) I'm sure they do too, but just a thought before you take the plunge.
( ;) whats not there can't be tested remember)
Another gotcha is the wiring loom being fastened in the boot. I glued Velcro loops to the body to hold mine out of the way?

Cheers
rob

[catswhiskers]

Hi Rob,
Thanks for the pointers. The sidelights are in the headlamps. The spotlamps are wired through the headlamps but as yet, they dont come on at all. Still investigating that one. Boot wiring is all secured with bonded in clips and tie-wraps. Mind you, you know how it is, just when you think things are ready!!!!!! :( Had a mobile man out today to set up the engine and emisions etc. Seems I have an intermittent fault with cylinders 1&2. Dont seem to be producing any power. You can hear the engine dropping of intermittently when on fast idle, then it will clear again. Problem is, cant set emmisions because its chucking unburnt fuel out of exhaust. He was very thorough and good at his job though. Had all plugs out and checked compression. All cylinders gave 140-150lbs. Cleaned all plugs, tried again. Same symptoms. Set idle to 1800 and cut each plug in turn. Engine revs dropped 250rpm on 3,4,5 & 6 but only about 70rpm on 1 & 2. I'm planning to change all plugs and leads for piece of mind but just wondered whether its likely that oil may be getting into the cylinders down the valve stems. Do they have rubber seals? Taking into account that the engine stood for 6 months (in the garage) before being test run, is it likely that they could have perished? assuming there are seals in the first place that is. :( Bugger.

Mick

[CorseChris]

Mick,

Try swapping the injectors around too...they can gum up if left idle or worse, if there was any water in the tank on the donor car, this always accumulates in the fuel rail and can end up causing internal rusting of the rail which then tends to clog the filter baskets on the top of the injectors themselves....but plugs & leads is worth a go first. I recall you replaced pretty much everything else apart from plugs & leads when you were first trying to fire it up so should be OK there.

Valve stem seals aren't likely to have 'gone off' I don't think.

All the injectors are fired together from a single point, so it probably won't be an ECU issue..but you could double-check that the CPS is properly gapped and clean, and that the teeth of the trigger wheel are also clean in the gaps.

But need I say it?? Look for the simple stuff first!! ;)

[catswhiskers]

Thanks for that Chris. I must admit that the injectors would be worth a clean out. At least you can get to them easily. I think I may as well remove the whole fuel rail assembly and clean everything. Like you say, start with the simple things. I wouldn't have thought it likely that the head gasket would be the problem. Especially as I have consistent compression with all plugs removed. I also drove the Alfa back from Cambridge before I dismantled it and it ran absolutely fine.
Ah well, here we go again. :rolleyes:

Keep you posted.
Mick

[Sando]

Hi Mick
I agree with Chris, I'd get the injectors tested and cleaned if the plug leads are ok. Quite a few larger garages seem to be able to offer this service nowadays. What fuel are you using? is that 6 months old too? Try some fresh Optimax it may help un-gum them further if you get it going ok........may just be plug lead though?

Rob

[David May]

If its chucking unburnt fuel out the back then it must be getting in there in the first place. If injectors won't work at tickover, they'll never work at full flow. Are you sure those 2 plugs and leads are OK?

[CorseChris]

If its chucking unburnt fuel out the back then it must be getting in there in the first place. If injectors won't work at tickover, they'll never work at full flow. Are you sure those 2 plugs and leads are OK?

Agreed David...but if it's too lean to ingite properly, it'll end up giving high HC anyway won't it? The intermittent bit doesn't really lend itself to injectors I suppose....unless it's electrical.

Check the Amp plugs to the injectors too, the usual pushed back pin syndrome.....but I doubt 2 would be faulty to be honest. And I suppose you should check the wiring really. The injector +12 comes from the 'Motronic' relay and the ECU grounds the other terminal to fire them. All shown with a common feed but I don't know physically where this 'commoning' is done.

If you get desperate Mick, I had the injectors for my V6 cleaned/serviced a while back and they are sitting in a nice sealed bag waiting to fit.... so you could try those.


But plugs & leads has to be the place to start. Then double-check the cap & rotor arm I suppose.

Bloody cars......

[catswhiskers]

Hmm.
Plenty of information here. Regarding chucking unburnt fuel out, I dont know whether that would read high on CO2 and HC but both were high. I think the CO2 was around 9%. I think the injectors need to be looked at anyway so they will be coming off tonight. Chris, thanks for the offer of trying yours. What sort of places would do cleaning? Fuel injection specialists?
And what sort of costs would be involved compared to new units :eek:
Plugs and leads are ordered so should be here tomorrow.
Fingers crossed.

MICK

[chris.richard]

CO2 was around 9%.

Isn't that about right?
Nitrogen goes through unchanged, oxygen mostly all burned, CO2 & water vapour produced?
Stiochiometry must have something to do with it , but i can't remember how to spell it, let alone what it meant :(

[CorseChris]

Mick,

Enerald did mine for me. They usually charge £15 each for service. Compares favourably with the new price.....

The injectors are probably Bosch 'Orange' ones - part number 0280 150 702.
I also have a spare set of 'blues' from a 155 V6 but these flow less fuel.

[Martin K]

Hmm.
Plenty of information here. Regarding chucking unburnt fuel out, I dont know whether that would read high on CO2 and HC but both were high. I think the CO2 was around 9%. I think the injectors need to be looked at anyway so they will be coming off tonight. Chris, thanks for the offer of trying yours. What sort of places would do cleaning? Fuel injection specialists?
And what sort of costs would be involved compared to new units :eek:
Plugs and leads are ordered so should be here tomorrow.
Fingers crossed.

MICK

The only combination that would give high CO and high HC in one cylinder is a rich mixture - probably in the 12:1 to 13:1 range.

Nitrogen doesn't unfortunately go through the combustion process untouched. In lean burn you get oxides of Nitrogen produced - these max out at about 16:1 air/fuel ratio. By this point you have minimal CO and still falling - and also minmum HC but rising.

It's possible that you have a rich mixture somewhere, which could be explained by incomplete or no burning in cylinders 1 and 2. This seems to suggest an ignition problem.

But the increase in CO could of course be coming from one or more of the other 4 cylinders - an injector sticking open maybe? In this case the high HC could be caused by a very lean mix in cylinders 1 and 2 - pointing to injector flow trouble.

Doesn't get any easier, does it?

Sorry

Martin

[catswhiskers]

:rolleyes: I'll get me coat :rolleyes:

Mick

[Martin K]

Don't go!

I think all the symptoms point to injectors, don't they?

[catswhiskers]

I do hope so. I've just spoken to a company in Nottingham who specialise in Injector cleaning and they can do them tomorrow for me on a same day basis. £15 per injector. Luckily, I can get there in my dinner break so should have them back without delay.
Watch this space. :)
By the way, aren't plug lead sets expensive :eek: HOW MUCH :eek: Best quote I got was £90 per set.

Mick

[catswhiskers]

Well just to keep you all up to speed, it would appear that I am back on track again. Injectors completely reconditioned and tested. The guy doing the job did actually ring me to say there were two deffective ones in the set, what a coincidence. Re-assembled everything last night, and then turned the key :D :D .
Sounds a different engine now. Thanks for all your helpful comments and suggestions.
Now, wheres that list of 'little jobs' :rolleyes:

Onwards again.

Mick (alias Fabrizio) get it? :)

[chris.richard]

Didn't she codrive for Michelle Mouton?

[catswhiskers]

Didn't she codrive for Michelle Mouton?

:D :D :D Cheeky

Mick

[CorseChris]

I reckon that makes me 3 for 3 now Mick.....

Glad it's sorted.

By spooky coincidence..I finished fitting bike throttle bodies to the Westfield today and fired it up. Guess what, 2 stuck injectors! Thankfully, both came good after sitting with pressure on them for a few minutes plus a gentle tap in the right place as it was running (on 2 cylinders). I should really get them serviced, but it can wait until the car comes off the road for winter.