Some questions about the Corse I?

[ChrisB]

Having lurked on here for a few weeks, (great site and forum by the way), thought I would finally take the plunge and ask a few questions.

Before going any further I should be honest and say that I am not actually at the stage where I am ready to start a build (financially or facilities wise), but am seriously thinking about undertaking one in maybe a year or two....

Just trying to get my head round what skills / budget / facilities are needed to build something like the NapierSport Corse I kit, and also what sort of running costs in terms of insurance etc are involved. Some of the info I need has been answered in other posts, so I'll try to avoid any duplication :) . For info I would plan to use the Alfa 3.0 V6 164 powerplant.

1. Skills to complete a build?
I have basic welding skills along with experience of rebuilding an 8v VW 1800cc engine, and have learn a fair bit restoring my current Mk1 Golf GTi (my "practical" car as I refer to it!).
I don't plan on doing the painting bodywork myself at this stage (never worked with fibreglass for a start), but pretty much everything else I would plan to do myself.
Am I likely to find the Corse I within my abilities?

2. Budget?
From the NapierSport site it seems the "complete" kit for the Corse I comes in at about 10K GBP + VAT. I also understand that this is really just a minimal shell of a car and that I need to budget for lighting, wheels, interior, electrics etc on top of this.
Whats a realistic figure for the Napiersport parts I should be looking at to complete the car (donor 164 and Scorpio parts aside)? I would be looking at building the Stradale road going version of the car btw.
Also how much should I budget for a useable 164 donor and rebuilding the engine and gearbox for example (parts costs mainly).

3. About the Corse kit itself?
Is the tub bonded to the chassis as with the Hawk kits? I would prefer this NOT to be the case for ease of rustproofing and the like, but couldn't suss this out from the site.
Is the Corse a noticeably less accurate replica than the Hawk HF3000? I am not after an exact replica down to every last detail, but want something that looks reasonably authentic and gives a drive comparable to the original in terms of appearance, handling and power.
Is there any storage space in the car at all once the spare is on board. The literature mentions a "boot", but doesn't really give details. It would be nice if the car was usable as more than just a track day special.

4. Insurance and SVA
What insurance group does the completed car fall into with a standard Alfa 3.0 V6. Are insurance premiums calculated differently for kit cars, so do you for example insure on replacement part value and assume your own labour (fine by me)?

5. Space and facilities
Sadly at the moment I am stuck with a narrow single garage. I plan to extend it lengthways, but realistically a double garage is not going to be an option for me. Am I setting myself up for a lot of heartache attempting something like this in a single garage? I have a manual 4 poster ramp in the garage at the moment which has proved invaluable for work on the Golf, and its got a fairly flexible configuration so hoping it will be of some use during a build like this.

6. Timescales?
I know this is a bit of a "how long is a piece of string" type question, and that many members have spent years on their projects, but whats a realistic total in terms of build hours for the kit (i.e. time spent on the kit assuming everything is to hand). I will be putting the bodywork out to a specialist as I think that is beyond my skills / facilities, but would plan to do most of the Alfa engine stripdown and rebuild myself.

Apologies for such a long first post, but I had forgotten how much I loved watching these cars compete as a kid in the 70's, and my interest was re-kindled when I recently started making a radio controlled Stratos kit :).

Oh, one other thing - from a financial perspective do you save much money by buying a completed car (I know they don't come up often) compared to building your own? Also if say you spent 25K GBP on building your own V6 engined Corse, how do their values fare a few years down the line if looked after and built to a good standard in the first place? Seems that compared to spending a similar amount on a more mundane car they actually hold their value reasonably well due to their rarity?

Any advice or info appreciated, even if it is only "don't do it!!!" :D

Thanks for reading,

Chris

[Swamprat33]

Hi Chris, Welcome to the forum.
Probably the best thing is to give me a ring on monday night after 6:30 on 01525 242240 and i will be more than happy to answer most or all of you queries then.

Cheers
Tim

[ChrisB]

Thanks Tim - really appreciate that. Will aim to ring you tomorrow evening around 7pm.

Cheers,

Chris

[SUSIT]

Welcome Chris,
You are in the right place to get all the answers you need. It takes time but its worthwhile to search the forum.
Alfa 164 are fairly easy to source mine cost £100 to buy and about double that to trailer home from Yorkshire. A more realistic option is to buy a runner for anything between £500 and £1500 use it for a while to get the feel for the engine. It may not require any more than a full service and belt + clutch change (clutch only because its out the car anyway)
Cant say I have heard of any problems with the gearbox.
I would say buying a completed car would be the cheapest option but it has its drawbacks.Most folk reckon on £25000 to build a kit and usually more.
Good completed cars seem to go for £15000 - £20000.
Boot- Yes it has a boot and I would think it can hold a fair amount. 6 cars completed to Monte run this year over 7 or 8 days with enough gear to last including tools and spares. So touring is possible. Dave May drives his Corse from Italy to Sweden at times with 4 spare winter wheels and tyres, he does use a roof rack though.
Garage space is a problem but some people have built there cars in the open. Not the best option but it depends how desparate you are. There are a number of people who will built the kit for you but I dont know what they will charge.
Hope this info is of some help
Regards
Stephen

[ChrisB]

Thanks Stephen.

I have to confess I was hoping that building a kit would work out slightly cheaper than buying a completed one, and that the finished car would at least be worth the parts and paint costs!! However I have bought and sold enough cars to know that you gotta do it for the love of it, although I tend to usually favour classics as depreciation can be negligible....

I have no objection to buying a completed car, although the perfectionist in me would prefer to know exactly whats been done on the car and to what standard, hence the preference for something I have built myself. There is also the satisfaction of knowing that whatever goes wrong with the car as I have built it, I should be able to fix it.

Does anyone have any comments on the Hawk versus the Corse I? The only slight query I have over the Hawk would be the fact that the main body tub is bonded to the chassis - is this also the case with the Corse? This would be more important if I was buying a secondhand car as I would want to be able to remove the main tub if necessary to inspect / repair / rustproof the main chassis at some point.

The Corse I seems to use more readily available donor parts - or is that not really the case? £25K seems a lot when you imagine stumping it up all at once, but I guess the reality is that that money actually gets spent over a period of years during the build process.

I am really looking to use a Stratos as a fast, fun distinctive "classic" that can be used for trips away and maybe the odd trackday. Thanks for the info on the boot space. I am used to touring in the likes of a Mk1 MX-5 so small space restrictions should not be a problem hopefully ;).

Thanks again for the responses so far. A friendly forum like this in my experience is always a good sign when it comes to restoring / building cars - hopefully means there will be lots of help / encouragement during the motivation low points of the build of which I am sure there will be many!!!!

Chris

[CorseChris]

Hi Chris,

The Corse shell is purely that - a shell. You fit it yourself at whichever point of the build suits your taste really. My own build (Corse S) reached a point where I had a totally driveable chassis with no bodywork at all on it. It's not like, say, a TVR or Marcos etc where you can remove the tub almost complete. More like a Westfield.

However, once fitted, you probably wouldn't want to remove the body!. There are lots of panels, fixing points, foam etc that make the shell rattle & squeek free, although it is still unstressed.

It's also possible to remove & re-fit a Hawk shell AFAIK, just possibly a bit more work. Same basic idea at the end of the day - shell wrapped over chassis.

As for donor parts, well, the 'I' uses more modern items for some of the suspension & steering so there are a few increasingly rare bits you won't have to track down. You'd still need to find things like door handles and maybe X 1/9 panel catches if you want to use those.

I built my car working out of a single garage. Bit of a PITA to be honest but if you have room to extend lengthways that will be a big help. I was obliged to do 90% of the work outside the garage so bought an awning to help with that. I have a reasonable amount of car & kit experience and would rate building the Corse S as 5 spanners! Mechanically, it's simple enough. The real graft comes in with bodywork and fittings I reckon. Main thing you really need is dedication and a dose of stuborn on top of the skills you already list.

My car cost over £20k but this was spread over 6 years so about the same annual cost as a fortnight in Florida :) Paint cost me much more than I expected. YMMV!

...and I still have to fettle & fit the V6 motor that is sitting in the garage. I bought a 164 donor for £800 and ran it for a couple of years before it needed money spending for the MOT so scrapped it at that point.

I'll repeat Tim's offer and PM you my number if you'd like to chat about building.

[ChrisB]

I guess that was what appealed about the Corse I initially - the supposedly "improved" rear suspension setup and the fact it is based on more modern donor parts.

However having read a a bit more about the spares and kits it seems the Hawk kits are a more exact replica of the original Stratos. There are advantages to this I guess, as the thread for things like glass side window fabrication show. I am guessing that the Hawk supplied replica Coffin spokes may not fit the Scorpio sourced hubs used on the Corse I also?

The Corse kits whilst excellent replicas seem to differ in small areas like this - hmmm, now I'm undecided. It appears from the pricelists that the costs of kits from both manufacturers are pretty similar.

Chris - you describe the skills involved as "5 spanner", (assuming you mean Haynes style rating here), which kinda makes me a bit wary. Don't get me wrong I enjoy a challenge and am a firm believer that taking your time to get things right means you can achieve most things, just maybe not as quickly as a pro. Whilst I have resto experience on a few classics, the bodywork side of things is an area that concerns me. Do the kits require much in the way of fibreglassing / filling / modifying to get a decent result?

For those of you that have bought a kit recently, or have had to decide between a Corse and a Hawk kit, I'd be interested to know what you chose and why.

So many questions ;) ..... I just like to research things properly before committing to a project so appreciate your patience folks!

Chris

[catswhiskers]

Hi Chris,

Well, I'll add my two pence worth then.
Like you, I spent several years looking, planning and costing. I found that there is very little in the 'real' cost of either kit if you build to a similar spec. However, I personally decided on a Corse due to several factors.
I am not a purist and in my opinion, the Corse looked more straightforward to build.
More modern suspension layout and choice of donor parts.
'standard packages' of options such as instrument package, brake line package, heating/demisting package, radiator and cooling package, etc.
Many of which I opted for to save me grovelling in scrap yards and spending countless hours searching etc.
Having met John and Lionel at the Donington show last lear, I placed my order and the Kit arrived a week before Christmas. In the interim, I bought an Alfa 164 V6 off ebay, drove it home from Cambridge and spent a couple of weekends stripping it.
Whilst the Corse is designed around the Scorpio running gear, I have re-designed mine to run on the Alfa hubs and brakes. Not a particularly big task in itself and well worth while seeing as I had the bits from the 164 anyway. Be warned though, the Hawk coffin spokes DONT FIT the Corse chassis. I had my own wheels made (see 'wheels have arrived' thread)
During my time planning the project, I did have the space and foresight to build a triple garage and central heated workshop which has been a godsend.
I can work in any weather, I dont have to set up and pack away after each session and this has, no doubt been one of the main reasons why I have progreesed so well. I started my build during last Christmas holidays and would say that, if I can get the bloody engine re-started (see seperate thread) I should be ready for the SVA test in the next 4-6 weeks making a build time of 7-8 months. I have done all my own bodywork fitting (with much help from John Davidson of Napiersport) Preparation and painting has been shared between my son and me. In all honesty, the bodywork took a lot of time but was not difficult. You just need a lot of patience.
Considering I had never built a kit before, some said I was brave taking on a Stratos project but to be honest, I have found everything very straightforward, (not simple) and Lionel and John have always been on hand to answer questions, advise and give help. My mechanical knowledge was from preparing and repairing rally cars and have found these skills to be more than sufficient to complete a project like this.
My overall build costs will be almost £22,000 including the donor (£150) paint job and wheels and tyres. Thats for a group 4 model.
If you are looking for a car that will handle well, be fun to build and drive and will pay homage to the Stratos, then the Corse is for you.
If you are looking for a 'true' accurate replica with original suspension etc, then go for the Hawk. If you are a purist, you should also go for left hand drive.
If you like, I can send you some pictures of the build to put your mind at rest.

Good luck, go for it. Life is not a rehersal. :)

Mick

[ChrisB]

Hi Mick,

Thanks for the input - much appreciated :) . As you say the "package" approach for the Corse has a definite appeal for a first time builder like myself. I wouldn't be that fussed about taking things as far as going for LHD in the search for authenticity, however having something extremely close to the original design does appeal, and I have to be honest details like the wheels would probably be important to me. I'll check out your thread on the alloys you had made as well. The replica coffin spoke alloys on the Hawk would be a consideration for me though....

If I am honest my car will be primarily for road use and is unlikely to be used in competition. I think from this point of view I doubt if I would notice the difference between the more traditional Hawk suspension setup and the more up to date Corse I design - of course I'd be interested in hearing from those that have driven both though.

The pictures of your build would be good, if they are different to the ones already posted on the forum - I'll PM you.

Thanks,

Chris

[SUSIT]

Check out the price and avilability of the coffin spoke wheels before you decide between the two options. My understanding is/was that they were only going to be produced in batches large enough to make it viable for the manufactor. The Stratos club managed to persude enough people to confirm an order for the original batch. Not many may be left over, you will need to contact Hawk cars to find out. It may be some time before enough orders are forthcoming to get another batch made.
I have just purchased 12 competition alloys for less than the price of 4 coffin spokes!
I would doubt on the open road if you would use the limits of the cars capabilities to be able to tell the differences in suspension design and anyway its been a Hawk in Jerry Bailleys more than capable hands as the car to beat at the annual stratos gathering, mind you Dave Watson did come a close second in his Corse S this year.

[ChrisB]

Hi Stephen,

Mick (catswhiskers) has pointed out that he got his version of the coffin spoke alloys made up for less than the Hawk ones. Although they are not replicas as such they look pretty good to me, so thats not necessarily a reason for me to choose the Hawk over the Corse I now.

I guess its nice to be in the position to choose between two such high quality kits :) . I think the only thing I have decided on for sure is I definitely want to go for Alfa V6 power - the rest is still up in the air.

Cheers,

Chris