Everybody OK?

[JohnB_SPY8808053]

Just wondering - its been a while since we went more than a day with no posts. Maybe I'm suffering from withdrawal. ;)

John B.

[catswhiskers]

Hi John,

Here's one completely out of the blue. We all agree that about 490 odd of these original Stratos thingy's were built. Does anyone know how many replicas have been sold, registered, how many are on the road in UK, USA, world etc.
Suppose its just idle curiosity but I wonder if this was possibly the first car to have more replicas than original models.
Pointless exercise? Interesting trivia?
That should start a healthy discussion.
Comments welcomed.
Regards,
Mick

[rutthenut]

Originally posted by catswhiskers
We all agree that about 490 odd of these original Stratos thingy's were built
...
Suppose its just idle curiosity but I wonder if this was possibly the first car to have more replicas than original models

I don't think I'd agree on the quote 490 odd of the originals, but the real number is not just shrouded in secrecy, it's almost certaintly not known! Especially if the figure is how many were sold, as opposed to how many bodyshells or complete cars were made (and all of those figures are bound to differ).

I'd also hazard a guess that there are more replica Cobra's out there than originals. Even more likely for GT40's I suppose?

Still, I think you're right to suggest that your comments could raise a few discussions...

[JohnB_SPY8808053]

The figure most commonly quoted for real cars is 492. As far as I know this originates from Nigel Trowe's book. I'm sure he researched the matter as well as anyone could have so I'll bet this is pretty close.

The Group 4 regulations initially required them to build at least 500 units but this number was later changed to 400. Now at first it seems like they would have stopped making cars as soon as possible to save money but If I'm remembering things correctly, all the (non-prototype) stratos chassis were made by Bertone in a single big production run before the homologation number was changed. It seems to me that the FIA would not have signed off on the car unless there was proof that at least 500 chassis had been ordered from Bertone by Lancia. They might not have assembled that many complete cars but I'd bet there are were at least 500 chassis made. One story I heard was that after the Stratos had been taken out of production by Fiat, Lancia had stored a large number of Stratos parts in a warehouse. The story claims that a number of complete cars were assembled from these parts and sold, causing or at least contributing to the questionable total number of cars built. This is just a story though, so we'll never know for sure - and it's probably best that way.

As to the number of replicas - I have no idea.

John B.


PS - I also remember reading somewhere that there were only 96 cars built with the early Group 4 bodywork (wide curved arches) but now I can't seem to find the source for that claim.

[Stratos]

The stories about cars being built from kits of parts long after production officially ceased is definitely true. I was speaking to a Stratos owner at the World Stratos Meeting at Rosenburg in 2000, and he told me that the car he had brought to Rosenburg was his second Stratos, and that it was much better than his first.

The second was a factory assembled car built during the real production run, and his first had been one built from parts in 1986 (at least I think that's the year he mentioned). His first car did have an actual chassis number though.

Martin Cliffe of Omicron keeps a list of chassis numbers, and he always thought that his Stratos was the last chassis built, but at Rosenburg he came across another Stratos with a chassis number after his.

[Stratos]

Originally posted by JohnB_SPY8808053
Just wondering - its been a while since we went more than a day with no posts. Maybe I'm suffering from withdrawal. ;)

John B.

It has been quiet the last few days, but there have been many people on the forum.

Last night there were 10 people on all at the same time, although 6 of them were guests.

On Wednesday night we had our highest number of people online at once - there were 14, although I don't no how many were guests. (Look on the bottom of the main forum screen)

We seem to be getting a lot of guests looking at the forum at present.

I haven't been on as much as usual recently, because I have been very busy workwise. AND, you probably won't hear much from me over the next couple of weeks, as I am off on holiday on next Wednesday.

[JohnB_SPY8808053]

If it's true that they were selling cars pieced together from spares (which I find believable), this might explain some of the conflicting reports regarding the quality of the Stratos bodywork. Sometimes you'll read that the original cars were quite well put together but other times you'll read that any car with snug panels is probably a replica.

John B.


PS - David, Have a great vacation!

[Stratos]

Originally posted by JohnB_SPY8808053

PS - David, Have a great vacation!

Thank you - I intend to.

I've found out that there's a rally on in Cyprus while I'm there, but I haven't told Georgina that yet!!! Hopefully, my friend, Leo, will be competing in his Integrale.

I also hope to try and meet up with Panos while I'm out there. He was hoping to have his Stratos out in Cyprus by July, but I don't know whether it's there or not yet. Bit of a hot place for a Stratos.

[mogul_x]

Originally posted by JohnB_SPY8808053
The figure most commonly quoted for real cars is 492.... ....but I'd bet there are were at least 500 chassis made.

I've seen in print somewhere that Bertone claimed to have built many more than that at one point. Back in the 70's, presumably during the time that the car was being homologated, Bertone had claimed to have completed 1000 cars, and had begun work on a second batch of 1000. I somehow doubt there was any truth to it, but it's kind of amusing anyway.

I've also heard numbers far lower than the 492 figure, so who knows for sure?

[catswhiskers]

Hi Rut,

I take your point about the possibility of more Cobra's but the fact that the Cobra had a much longer production life than the Stratos, and if I,m correct, is still in production, then I'm not sure this would be the case.
Anyhow, some of the Cobra replicas Ive seen are hardly worthy of the title 'replica'.
Sorry, I'm being catty now.
As for the GT40 I'd agree completely, I just forgot about that one. Put it down to old age.
Now, back to the original question, how many Stratos replicas have been built.?

Cheers Mick.

[BETANUT]

It might :confused: be easier to try and find out how many replica manufacturers there are/have been and work out a rough guesstimate from there.
I'm no Stratos guru but I can think of at least four different companies who've made replicas here in the UK.... but surely there's been something built in Italy and elsewhere?
Mind you, if an accurate record is hard to find for the real thing how about for all the replicas?!!!

[rutthenut]

Originally posted by BETANUT
I'm no Stratos guru but I can think of at least four different companies who've made replicas here in the UK.... but surely there's been something built in Italy and elsewhere?

The list of replica manufacturers may sound larger than it really is, since there have only ever been two designs on sale at any one time.

The 'Transformer HF2000' kit is now built and sold by the same person as the 'Hawk Cars HF2000/HF3000', albeit with some of the original founders no longer being involved.

The other design of kit was launched as the 'Alllora' (what model/product name did it use?) and the product/company subsequently became the 'Litton Corse' under new ownership. This later moved to Carson Automotive as the 'CAE Corse'. I think that ownership of this is changing or has changed (back to the previous owner?) but I don't know the company or product name to be used.

Each design of kit has had many updates over the years, with their intentions being for sales into different markets (HF as replica kits, Corse as competition-oriented cars). But that's a different area for discussion and has already been covered.

You're right in suggesting that finding correct numbers of kits sold (and also numbers completed) will be very difficult. The number of members in the Stratos Replica Club doesn't help much on this front either.

Gerry Hawkridge should know how many of the Transformer/Hawk kits were made, but doesn't let on with specific numbers. All I know is that it is in the hundreds. That could still be less than 500, but it is sure to be over 200 (maybe below 300 though, who's to know?).

I have no idea of numbers on the Allora/Litton/CAE kits, although it is certain to be less. I do not know so much about these cars.

I'm not aware of any other kit or replica manufacturers creating versions of the Stratos elsewhere in the world, but have heard that Gartrac or X-Trac may once have created a replica steel monocoque body unit. Even if they did, this would not have been a high-volume item for general resale.

I trust that the Triumph TR7 'Stratos bodykits' are to be ignored?

[BETANUT]

TR7 Stratos Kit!!
I knew there was a TR7 based F40 replica:rolleyes: but is nothing sacred!! I'm sure I saw a Stratos based on a VW Beetle kit (possibly a conversion of a Nova which I think was a Ferrari 246 replica) at a show near Winchester - in a previous life ;) - but I was drawn to a very nice Beta coupe....

[colin artus]

Gartrac made two tubs as far as I recall. They were really nice work too; the panels were much more accurately made than the Bertone originals and so did not require all the lead loading that was used to get the finished shape. I think they were asking about £14k for the tub in 1990. They made all the jigs so they might still be able to make them now.

Colin

[JohnB_SPY8808053]

According to Dennis McCann, there was also one replica chassis made by Lotus. Apparently it was a special one-off build. The car was never finished and the chassis might be available for purchase though I got the impression it was rather expensive.

I have also seen pictures of a Japanese kit, or at least pictures of several kits being assembled in Japan. The cars had honda V6 engines but the chassis might have been imported Corse kits.

There are also several photos of Group 5 car in Marlboro livery from Japan. I don't know if this one was made by Hennesy or not though.

Just a few thoughts while I had a minute.

John B.

[Stratos]

Originally posted by JohnB_SPY8808053
I have also seen pictures of a Japanese kit, or at least pictures of several kits being assembled in Japan. The cars had honda V6 engines but the chassis might have been imported Corse kits.


There were quite a few Corse kits sent to Japan, and at one time there was a company in Japan specialising in construction of Corse kits.


Originally posted by JohnB_SPY8808053
There are also several photos of Group 5 car in Marlboro livery from Japan. I don't know if this one was made by Hennesy or not though.


Hennessy have only produced the one Group 5 Replica. It is a one-off construction, and has not yet reached the production stage.

[rutthenut]

Originally posted by JohnB_SPY8808053
I have also seen pictures of a Japanese kit, or at least pictures of several kits being assembled in Japan. The cars had honda V6 engines but the chassis might have been imported Corse kits.

There are also several photos of Group 5 car in Marlboro livery from Japan. I don't know if this one was made by Hennesy or not though.

Both Hawk and CAE have sold cars into Japan. As fas as I know, CAE exports stopped some time ago (between one and three years back, possibly).

Gerry has a company operating as an agent in Japan that builds the Hawk kit using Japanese 'touring car' engines of some sort (about 300bhp I think, could be Nissan or Toyotas, in-line fours). The English-language version of their web site is at http://www.atakaeng.co.jp/hfr2000/en/home.htm

I've seen a few pictures of Group 5 cars that appear to be bodykits fitted to original Strat's but that may not be the case (don't know about the longer wheelbase issues either).

I hadn't heard of Lionel having any joy with sales of his Group 5 car yet, but initially he was aiming at the GT racer market rather than the kit/replica crowd.

[Stratos]

Originally posted by rutthenut
I hadn't heard of Lionel having any joy with sales of his Group 5 car yet, but initially he was aiming at the GT racer market rather than the kit/replica crowd.

They are hiring the Group 5 car out for various races via the Alfa Centauri company at present.

When I last spoke to Lionel, he was telling me that the rules for GT racing had been changed, and he was going to have to build several road-going versions to be able to qualify to race the existing car, so this didn't seem feasible.

[chris.richard]

Originally posted by JohnB_SPY8808053
PS - I also remember reading somewhere that there were only 96 cars built with the early Group 4 bodywork (wide curved arches) but now I can't seem to find the source for that claim.

Wasn't it Colin Artus in a post a couple of weeks ago?

[colin artus]

Not guilty m'lud.

Colin

[chris.richard]

Sorry John, I'm referring you back to yourself! I was getting mixed up with Colin's comments on the reason for the switch from round to square arches. (pros and cons of group four arches, 23rd August)

[guy mayers]

One rumour flying around about Stratos numbers related to the Homologation numbers. The story went along the lines of the FIA inspectors turning up in Turin and being driven to a field outside Turin to inspect 250 completed cars, the other 250 being seen in another field on the other side of Turin after a long lunch. Rumours of convoys of Stratos and transporters full of them are purely conjectural. Did anyone read the Supercar Classics article years ago about the warehouse collapse that destroyed a large number of unsold cars................... Speaking to Gerry at the Donnington Show at the weekend he told me that Transformer Cars and subsequently Hawk Cars had produced some 327 Stratos kits to date, production continues with serious enquiries at each show.
Guy

[David May]

That's a useful number.

Now, who knows about total Allora / CAE kit sales??

Dave M

[Stratos]

I know that 13 ALLORA were produced.

Don't know the figure for the CORSE.

[David May]

Is the Hennesy Group 5 car related to the Gp5 car that Hugh Carsons brother was sticking together around 1999, or is it a coincidence?

Dave M

[Stratos]

Different car.

The car you mention, David, was sold to a guy who is now working for Gardner Douglas, and I think it is still at a very early stage.