Ferrari-engined Stratos

[Stratos]

Colin,

Thanks for uploading the pictures of your Ferrari-engined Stratos.

I've just been drooling all over them.

You've done a brilliant job there - everything looks neat and well thought out.

Because of having the gearbox behind the engine, rather than transverse like the Alfa engine, you are getting your weight even more mid-engined than with the Alfa, and the engine sits much lower than the Alfa, which again will help.

Brilliant - I want one too!!!!!!

[colin artus]

Actually the engine is sitting on top of the gearbox. Well, on top of and to the front, the sump sits alongside. Beacause the engine has such a short stroke the block itself is very short as well. If you look at the pictyre of the engine from the side view you can see the crankshaft is quite high up.

Colin

[JohnB_SPY8808053]

So now I've got to ask... Anybody know what a used 308 QV engine costs these days?

John B.

[mogul_x]

John,

Believe it or not, I saw one on E-bay a few months back. I think the reserve on it was around $7000, but I don't think it got bid up much higher than $4000. No idea if it sold, since it was well beyond my budget anyway. I think it was engine only - no tranny, ecu, intake, etc, and there may have been some other damage.

Jeff Davison might actually have bid on that engine. If so, he might recall more of the specifics. There may still be a link to it on the Yahoo site somewhere, buried in the old posts, but I'm sure the info has long since been removed from E-bay.

[JohnB_SPY8808053]

That's not as bad as I thought it would be.

The rally regulations here in the US require me to use an engine that was supplied by the cars original maunfacturer. This means I can use ANY engine that Lancia did... which would include the one from the Thema 8.32... which is more or less the same engine used in the 308 GTBi/GTSi QV & Mondial 8 QV.

Now why didn't I think of that sooner?

John B.


PS - I have a funny feeling this thread is going to get me into BIG trouble with the Missus.

[mogul_x]

John,

Did the Thema 8.32 have Lancia or Ferrari on its cam covers? Also, are they in fact the same engine? Importing a Thema engine has a host of potential complications, but importing a set of cam covers and swapping them over would be pretty easy, assuming they'd fit.

[JohnB_SPY8808053]

I'm not sure about the cam covers - the intake manifold was marked 'Lancia by Ferrari'. I have read that the engines were not identical - the Lancia version being tuned down a bit to 215 bhp. I think I could get by with the Ferrari block though as the Lancia version was derived from it. This should be no different than building a V6 from an Alfa 164Q instead of a Lancia Thema/Kappa/Thesis... or am I just rationalizing things?

John B.

[rutthenut]

I thought that there were a lot of differences between the 'proper' Ferrari V8 and the one installed in the Thema.

Possibly a different crankshaft throw in some way perhaps?

And I think I heard that it rotated in the opposite direction for it to be used in an fwd transverse installation. But that could be complete hogwash! It would certainly affect all the cam drives, oil pump and other ancillaries too.

I have a feeling that this installation uses a more normal Thema-type gearbox as well, rather than the centralised Ferrari setup. There are one or two kits that were being built with this power source, but I haven't heard of any being completed so far.

Anyone know the true details of the Thema 8.32 engines?

I guess I should dig out the AutoItalia magazine issue that tested a variety of Thema's, including the 8.32, or contact one of the Lancia (or Ferrari) experts. But then again, I'm not after one of these engines, so I'll leave the digging to someone who might be!

[Stratos]

John,

I think you're right about the Thema 8.32 using the Thema type gearbox - in fact I think it's the same as the Alfa gearbox too. I remember Lee Priestland telling me about it when I went up to look at his car.

He is installing the 8.32 engine in his Corse I, and could probably tell us all a lot more about it.

I took some pictures of his car, but I don't know where they are at the moment. If I locate them, I'll post them up.

[Stratos]

Originally posted by JohnB_SPY8808053
So now I've got to ask... Anybody know what a used 308 QV engine costs these days?

John B.

There's a UK Ferrari Spares company which offers engines at £12,000 each. Transmission, and ancillaries, are extra.

I have been told that it's sometimes possible to find an 8.32 engine and box for about £3,000. I know where there is a complete Thema 8.32 for sale for £6,000 - supposedly the whole car is in good condition.

[rutthenut]

Originally posted by Stratos

I know where there is a complete Thema 8.32 for sale for £6,000

There are a few of these dotted around the UK, at that price and above, with quite a few more apparently getting brought in from Switzerland, where they don't seem to cost much at all as a second-hand car. This can mean a good markup for individuals who import them, but that's always been an opportunity for car dealers who get specialist cars in good enough condition (same as for Integrales).

[JohnB_SPY8808053]

After digging around online, the only changes I have found mentioned are different cams and a higher compression ratio. Apparently this was done to smooth out the engine a bit since the Thema was supposed to be a luxury model. The transaxle is a different story - it looks to be similar to the other thema models with the offset diff.

It would be very interesting if the guts of the engine (heads, crank, block) were identical to the 308/Mondial. If they didn't mess around with the valves and such too much, you might be able to change the cams and have a nice high CR Ferrari V8 for very little cash. Personally, I'd still want the Ferrari transaxle - I'm sure it's stronger and it just looks right. It might not mount to the Thema V8 though.

I'm really not too worried about justifying the engine or transaxle to anybody. (I was planning to build an Alfa V6 anyway - not a Lancia.) I've already been exluded from the higher level of rally car classes by a rule that requires all cars to be of recent manufacture. In the lower classes, there is a clause that allows them to let any car run so long as they feel it meets the safety regulations. Even if I told them outright or they were smart enough to ask, I'll bet they'd let it run with the Ferrari parts.

See - I knew this was going to get me into trouble.


John B.


PS - Here are some links with pictures and info.

http://home.planet.nl/~cate0025/history.html

http://home.intekom.com/lancia/832.html

[JohnB_SPY8808053]

Just found out the Thema does not have the flat crankshaft that the other Ferrari V8's have. This probably means that the rest of it is different too - who knows though, the valve covers might still be interchangeable. ;)

John B.

[colin artus]

Forget about the 8.32, the installation is too difficult as the length of the assembly is really too long for the Strat engine bay. There are simply too many compromises involved. Geoff Turton has a partially built kit in his workshop with this engine and the owner must surely regret opting for this unit as it has cost him a pile of money and it is nowwhere near complete. True that these engines can be bought much more cheaply than in the past, but that is also true of the 308 engine.
A dry sump 308 carb engine ( early gtb) will still fetch good money,
perhaps £6/7k. The wet sump version (gt4) £ 4.5/5.5. that would be including the transmission. I wouldn't buy one of these engines except as a complete unit since the sump is part of the transmission casting.
The later injected engines were all wet sump up until the 328 if I remember correctly and they have slightly less power in 2v form than the earlier carb versions (not as much difference as the figures suggest as the as the oriinal 255 bhp was more like 230 in reality).
A complete 308 qv engine and trans would be £6/8k.
People often seem to have absurd expectations about the value of these engines but as they are no longer used in marque racing there isnt anything like the demand that there was 15 years ago.
When you think what is available now for the same sort of money
I wouldnt be tempted unless pretty sure that it was a good buy.
On the plus side the installation is quite straightforward and the engines themselves are very strong and also very amenable to tuning ( you have to junk that wretched K jetronic though!).



PS the main differnce between the 8.32 and the 308 QV engine is the crank. The 308 has a flat plane crank ( effectively two four cylinder engines on a common crank) and the 8.32 has an offset firing order like american V8's.

[JohnB_SPY8808053]

Thanks for the info Colin. I was hoping you'd give us a little first-hand information. I won't be upgrading my engine for a while yet but this seems like the best plan so far. Do you have any advice regarding engine tuning, etc. ?

John B.


PS - I noticed the circular cut-outs on your chassis - is it one of the very early ones? Mine was made by Spyder Engineering (#53) but I've never seen one like yours before. It reminds me of the first original cars before the chassis was being mass-produced.

[colin artus]

John,
My chassis is a Safety Devices one, so a bit later than yours. The Spyder Eng chassis is the lighter as the engine cradle members are made with 16g steel folded to form the box sections. The Safety Devices chassis used the lightest commercially available box which was 14g; its heavier than it needs to be but the change was cost driven.
Anyway, the main chassis members on my car (sills and engine cradle have been lightened with holes which have been sealed, where exposed, with thin stamped aluminium plates. It didnt save that much weight but it does look cool.

With regard to the 308 engine and tuning:
Its quite surprisng how much power the 308 produces when you consider that the cr is low (8.8:1) and the cam lift is very moderate (less than 9mm). It means that the heads flow well and have good port velocity.
Ferrari used to offer a sprint kit that gave some 40 bhp extra. It comprised of new cams and carb mods. It might be possible to find an engine with this already fitted.
The bottom end of the engine requires little work as the crank is a billet steel item and the rods are forgings; its good for 9000rpm with new rod bolts (ARP have made some sets in the past). On my engine the standard damper and the flywheel have both been replaced with lightweight items that were specially made ( about a third of the cost of sourcing off the shelf race items from Italy).
Arias forged pistons are fitted to raise the cr to 12:1 and they were very expensive when I bought them . However custom forged pistons are much cheaper now and a set of 8 from Ross, J&E, or Wiseco would probably be about $800.
The heads could be left alone but improvements can be obtained on the intake side by increasing valve diameter and some port work. The exhaust side is over large already and should be left alone (infact filling in the exhaust port floor to raise it can help if you are really going for it)
It is a good idea to replace the valves with stainless steel items if you have the opportunity. The exhaust valves are a known weakness as they are sodium filled and can corrode from the inside. The 246 engine is particularly prone to this problem.
Cams are expensive as you need four and they are billet steel items than do not lend themselves to regrinds. One way to avoid a big bill here is to have a standard set stellite welded and then reground but its a specialist job and in the UK,at least, hard to find someone who can do it. The cam profiles that have been used have tended to be a bit old fashioned and the ones I have are BRM Lotus tc in origin. I'm going to get a set done with a more modern computer designed profile (more lift and less duration).
The carbs are 40 dcnf and the sprint ones 42 dcnf.You can increase the size of the chokes in the standard carb and this will give you more flow at the expense of bottom end flexibility (less vacuum signal). I have fitted 44mm throttle bodies based on dcnf architecture. I got them from Omex although they are made in the States. Jenvey were talking about making some dcnf units but nothing available as yet.
I think that covers the basics.

Colin

[rutthenut]

Originally posted by JohnB_SPY8808053
PS - I noticed the circular cut-outs on your chassis - is it one of the very early ones

I don't know about Colin's chassis, although I see that it has plenty of other modifications for its use as a race car.

But I've got 'holes' in my race-car chassis too, as a weight-saving measure. Shame I haven't made any progress with that car though. Maybe for next year. :rolleyes:

[chris.richard]

How do you tell who built a chassis? Is it coded in the chassis number, or are there other ways to tell?

[colin artus]

Chassis numbers that start MM are the first and were made by Midas Metalcraft; numbers starting SPY were made by Spyder Engineering; and numbers starting SD were made by Safety Devices. That takes production up to about 1993. I dont know the sequence after that.

Colin

[JohnB_SPY8808053]

Thanks for the info, Colin!

I'm not sure about the numbers for the others but the Spyder chassis are marked as follows:

SPY + YY + MM + NNN

Where SPY is Spyder Engineering, YY is the year, MM is the month and NNN is the number.

My car is marked SPY8808053 - meaning it was the 53rd chassis built and was finished in the 08th month of (19)88.


John B.

[lpriestland]

Imagine my surprise, I've just returned from holiday to find a thread on Ferrari powered Strat's. A topic close to my heart.

I'm part way through building a Corse and have managed to slide in a Thema 8.32 unit that actually fitted quite easily after just a few nips and tucks.

Hugh already had a rear cradle available for a Ferrari unit that was used on 'his' 308 powered car that eventually ended up in Japan. So my chassis was based on this drawing and from what I gather it uses a lower framework around the engine than the Alfa and Lancia cradles but it otherwise identical to an i chassis. The only mod I made here was to slightly moved the inner braces at the rear of the cradle to allow more room around the rear facing headers which is more of an issue with my exhaust than the chassis.

The engine mounts are different (shucks, who'd have guessed that) and the fuel tank is a little narrower to accomodate the the wider 90 degree heads over the 60 degrees of the Alfa. The drive shafts are different from the Alfa units and after revising the dimensions it didn't vary the cost greatly.

Other than that an 8.32 slides in nicely and as the gearbox isn't underneath the engine as it does on a pukka 308 unit, the centre of gravity is quite low. Especially when you consider how 'flat' the Ferrari derived unit is from an Alfa with it's taller dimensions.

I've also junked the Bosch K-Jetronic mechanical fuel injection in favour of full engine management. This has also allowed me to remove the twin dizzies which in turn has allowed me to reatain a reasonable fuel tank at around 11 gallons. This 'phase' of the build isn't finished yet but I'll keep you posted my on progress once it's been dyno'd.

I sourced the 8.32 engine and gearbox from Eurospares over at Halstead approx. 30 mins east of Stanstead. They import Ferrari, Lambo and Maserati spares and anyone interested in Italian machinery would be well advised to take a trip and druel over their stock. The engine and box combo cost around £3k. The gearbox is limited slip and apart from the bellhousing is basically the same as an Alfa v6. So an internal reshuffle should be possible from Alfa spares. As for the engine, I believe that the crank, rods and cams are different from the original 308 unit in order to generate more torque and subsequently less power. As standard the 8.32 pumps out 215bhp but I'm not sure of the torque figure. The plenium is kinda cool as it says 'Lancia by Ferrari' which I think looks at home in a Stratos engine bay. It's a shame that phase two will likely be to junk it in place of throttle bodies but it'll still look good on the wall of the study!

I have a couple of 'distant' pic's of my Strat in the Photos section and hope to beg a digicam in the near future to take some close up shots.

PS: If anyone has a spare 8.32 starter motor then I'd be interested as mine seems to be playing up. If you have such a thing then you're also likely have a garden full of hobby horse poop which I'd also like to spread around mi roses! :D

[BETANUT]

The Ferrari V8 was re-engineered and built by Ducati for Lancia (keeping it in the family at the time!) and the cam covers did indeed mention Lancia by Ferrari 8.32 , the crank and ECU are different over the 308 spec but the engines gave out somewhere between 200 and 230 BHP depending on series.
I've never heard of these engines misbehaving if properly maintained and I'm told there's a turbo charged V8 in Holland (still in a Thema!) still running reliably on standard transmission so I'm pretty sure it could handle being installed in a Stratos.:D

[chris.richard]

Originally posted by lpriestland

The gearbox is limited slip and apart from the bellhousing is basically the same as an Alfa v6. So an internal reshuffle should be possible from Alfa spares.
Am I right in taking this to mean that one of these LSDs could be fitted into an Alfa transmission without modification?

[Stratos]

Chris,

If you need an LSD, you can get one from Gripper Diffs, either direct or through Mike Buckler at Rusper Alfa.

[omicron]

The Thema 8:32 engine bears some resemblence to the Ferrari engine - but it has a different crank to give low down torque characteristics that were more suitable for an executive car. I also understand that the engines run backwards compared to the Ferrari.

Much is different - many Ferrari specialists who have taken in an 8:32 have had to give up. The cambelts, for instance are difference.

If anyone is interested we have two genuine 246 Dino engines at Omicron for sale. They have the correct gearbox for a mid engined car rather than the more common front engined Fiat Dinos.

From a long term point of view it will always be easier to use a carb engined Ferrari than a re-engineered by Lancia, supposedly built by Ducati Ferrari engine...

Andrew

[omicron]

I've never heard of these engines misbehaving if properly maintained

Hamish hits the nail on the head. If properly maintained, then no problems, but many 8:32s are in the hands of people who can't afford the maintenence and stretch the belt change intervals.

Andrew

[chris.richard]

Originally posted by colin artus
Chassis numbers that start MM are the first and were made by Midas Metalcraft; numbers starting SPY were made by Spyder Engineering; and numbers starting SD were made by Safety Devices. That takes production up to about 1993. I dont know the sequence after that.

Colin

My chassis is STSLA 950313

Anybody any idea of the manufacturer?

[mogul_x]

Since we've got most of the serial number history for Transformer/Hawks, I thought I'd add the latest numbering scheme, courtesy of Gerry Hawkridge.

The most recent cars have a 17 digit serial number with the following:

HAWKWWXXHFYYMMBBB

Where:

HAWK is the manufacturer
WW XX are the welder's initials
HF is the model
YY is the year of manufacture
MM is the month
BBB is the number in batch.

For example, my car's complete serial number is: HAWKSHSSHF0111040

Unfortunately, this sheds no light on where the chassis was actually manufactured. Also not sure when this scheme was adopted, although it's obviously sometime between 1995 and 2001.

Anybody have a car built between those dates?

[rutthenut]

Originally posted by chris.richard
My chassis is STSLA 950313
Anybody any idea of the manufacturer?

I'd hazard a guess that this is from 'Street Steel', which are the fabricators used by Hawk Cars for their chassis work, before the latest numbering scheme was put in place.

So that could be a Street Steel chassis from 1995, perhaps chassis number 313 from Hawk Cars/Transformer?

[rutthenut]

Originally posted by mogul_x
WW XX are the welder's initials

My car's complete serial number is: HAWKSHSSHF0111040

Unfortunately, this sheds no light on where the chassis was actually manufactured

Knowing that Street Steel currently do the chassis fabrication work, I'd suggest that the 'SH SS' denomination gives someones initials (SH) and the manufacturing company (SS being Street Steel).

That help out at all?

[mogul_x]

John,

SS standing for "Street Steel" certainly seems plausible. Gerry only said that the "SHSS" in my serial number were welder's initials. He never specified whether both pairs belonged to persons, or if they identified both person and company.

As for Chris' serial number, the 0313 could also be the month and day, or the month and batch number, as with some of the other numbering schemes. Sure gets confusing, doesn't it!

[Chris Jarvis]

The Thema 8:32 engine bears some resemblence to the Ferrari engine - but it has a different crank to give low down torque characteristics that were more suitable for an executive car. I also understand that the engines run backwards compared to the Ferrari.

I was chatting to a Thema 8.32 owner who demonstrated to me (by firing his car up) how the firing order and crank design of his engine made it sound similar to an American V8, rather than the wail of the flat crank 308 Ferrari engine.