Alternative Engines

[357_Cosworth]

Hello

I'm new here so please be gentle...

I appreciate that fitting an italian engine allows many of you to run your Stratos in motorsport events and the Alfa V6 is undeniably a fine engine. I think Clarkson said it was the sweetest sounding V6 of all time (not sure myself as I suspect the origional Ferari V6 sounded pretty cool).

But has anyone ever fitted a Hi Power 4 pot turbo engine into a Stratos..?

ie Ford Cosworth power..? I appreciate there will be issues with regard intercooling etc but I think a RS200 style intercooler would do the job.

So does anyone know of a Cosworth powered Stratos and is so how succesfull was it?

FYI my current Cosworth engine produces 357 Bhp and 320ft.lb at 6100. It just needs a chassis to match it now.

Any ideas what gearbox to use I dont know how string the Alfa one is.

CheeRS

Damian:)

[stewart]

Damien,

There are a variety of engines in Strats apart from the Alfa and Beta. In Japan and Australia there are Nissan turbo 4's, a Ferrari 308 and my replica is fitted with a Nissan Maxima (Cefiro) 3L V6 (not registered yet). In the UK there are also Honda engined cars, and has been at least one turbo powered although can't remember the engine.

In NZ there is a Sierra Cosworth turbo powered car with some pretty amazing horsepower. Not sure of the gearbox running in it however. I don't have a lot of other details of the car, although I don't think it is on the road at present.

No doubt the other guys can throw some other ideas your way. Ultimately if you don't mind less 'italianness' it is up to what you can fit and what modifications you are prepared to make to the mounting in the chassis

Hope that helps a little.

cheers

[357_Cosworth]

Cheers for that... I would love a big HP N/A engine but being as I have the cossie lump all paid for as it were I thought I would investigate that direction first.

Also its cheep HP abiet with harsh power delivery as the T3/4 comes onto boost (24Psi) but then these Strato's have wider rear rubber than the Cossie and also there is more weight over the rear so wheelspin shouldn't be too much of a problem with the right rubber.

CheeRS

Damian

[rutthenut]

There have been various suggestions and considerations of using different engine units in the Stratos replica. Almost all of these have been discarded at the conception stage, as far as I know.

The Honda/Rover V6 is an exception, as that was tried out before the Alfa V6 was commonly available.

In Japan, there are some race-type Jap-spec engines in use by one company that builds Hawk replicas over there, which makes a lot of sense in their local market.

In Australia, there are one or two other alternatives in use, again due to the [non]availability of the Italian engines.

The choice of the Alfa V6 isn't *just* down to it being Italian, it is also a damn fine engine! (biased opinion, but I'm not alone with it) Other reasons too, such as the V6 configuration being 'right' for the car, but that can be countered by comments about it 'only being a replica' after all.

The Lancia Thema/Delta turbo engines have been used to good effect, and are therefore a known quantity in the Strat - being derived from the earlier Beta four-pot anyway.

The height/length of the engine may be a problem, but probably not a real issue for a four-pot. Gearbox needs to be suitable for use in a transverse location, so not sure if Ford offer something that would do. A non-Ford transmission would then want an adapter plate, presumably non-standard too.

At the end of the day, you end up breaking lots of new ground for no real benefit. The power figures you quoted are available from other engines that have already been installed in the kits (although the Ford/Cossie power may be a bit cheaper).

It would depend a lot on your own reasons for wanting to use that particular engine unit. If it's just 'because I've already got one' then I would probably warn against it.

This fits in with general advice on people selecting kit cars in general. It's quite often that the magazines are asked something like 'What Kit Car can I build using my Ford/Vauxhall/Citroen/whatever car as a donor'. Often the suggested donor car is the cheapest part of the kit build and should not therefore be used in the decision making process. It is often cheaper to discard the worn-out donor car and buy the bits you need to build the kit you want. This isn't so much the case if the engine is a highly-specified and modified unit, which therefore represents a significant investment in the power unit.

FYI, engines that I know have been fitted to Stratos replicas:

Lancia Beta 2-litre - with twin carbs or Volumex supercharger
Lancia Thema 2-litre - 8-valve or 16-valve turbo's
Lancia Integrale 2-litre - turbo unit essentially the same as Thema
Honda/Rover 2.5-litre V6 - with carb conversion or injection
Ferrari Dino 2.4-litre V6 - [almost] as per the original, sounds the best!
Ferrari 308QV 3.0-litre V8 - tight fit, needs minor Hawk chassis mods, may fit the Corse as is
Lancia Thema Ferrari 3-litre V8 - don't know of any finished yet
Alfa 155 2.5-litre V6 - one instance of this completed
Alfa 164 3.0-litre V6 - 12-valve and 24-valve variants now in use

Engine mounts are available in the Hawk kit for all of the above engines, with the exception of the 155 V6 and maybe not the Thema Ferrari. I don't know which units have been fitted 'as standard' to the Corse kits, but the main variations of Beta/Thema/Alfa will presumably have been covered.

One other thought - what would be your intended use for the car, competition or road use? If you want to compete with it, then maybe the availability of Cossie tuning parts would be a benefit.

[Stratos]

Almost any engine can be made to fit in any Stratos, provided you are willing to have some chassis modifications to enable clearance, but the basic design of the Stratos engine cradle, and the engine cradle size, means that it will need to be transversely mounted.

There must be Ford gearboxes which will allow you to do this. Probably something like a Mondeo box. And Quaife, Xtrac, etc mist make kits which fit inside these boxes to take the power you are talking about. Some of this stuff must have been developed for racing, eg touring cars.

If you have lots of Cosworth bits, then the CORSE I used Ford hubs, disks, calipers, etc, so a few more of your bits could get used if you obtained one of those kits.

However, as John said, the secret of a successful build is not forcing a kit to match something you just happen to have lying around.

Fitting a Cosworth to a Stratos, you will be doing a lot of new devlopment work, and there will be no-one with previous experience to help you.

If you do go down this route, everyone on here will try and help you as much as possible.

[357_Cosworth]

Wow thanks for the informed replys.. coming from the RS BB I was expecting to get a bit of a mauling. Just proves not all user groups are so closed minded.

I defenantly see where you are coming from and the bolt in approach would probably be best as this will be my first build.

Thanks very much you have all given me a many things to think about.

One last thing though does anyone know what a Alfa V6 weighs as the Cossie lump (cast iron block) is pretty heavy.

CheeRS

Damian (off to investigate gearboxes...) :)

[Stratos]

Damian,

Pleased we could help.

You will find on this forum that there is a good mix of people from varying backgrounds and experience.

Some like the kits to be built, and be as authentic as possible, and, where possible, italian based to retain the italian feel. Others use whatever parts they feel appropriate.

Some like to just build and admire their cars. Others have their cars for competition use.

It's very much each to their own.

But, one thing you will find is that we all love the Stratos regardless of what is under the bodyshell, and will go out of our way to help other builders and enthusiasts as much as possible.

[chris.richard]

TRANSFORMER (HAWK CARS) HF2000

Our car was completed in 1994 and has since covered 13,000 miles over the last 7 years. Most of this mileage has been completed on various trips into Europe, including two 3,000-mile tours of Italy. Unfortunately due to other commitments and interests we rarely have time to use the car and reluctantly have decided to sell her.

Specifications include

GROUP 4 BODY FINISHED IN THE CASTROL COLOUR SCHEME
11.5/8.0 x 15 INCH RIMS ON 5 STUD HUBS
EX BENETTON F1 BREMBO 4 POT ALLOY CALIPERS AND VENTED,CROSS DRILLED DISCS WITH DASH BIAS ADJUSTMENT AND SEPARATE HANDBRAKE CALIPERS
LANCIA 2.0L TURBO INTERCOOLED ENGINE, REWORKED BY GUY CROFT
FULLY ADJUSTABLE ROSEJOINTED SUSPENSION WITH ANTIROLLBARS
KONI/SPAX ADJUSTABLE SHOCKS WITH 2.25 ID SPRINGS AND HEIGHT ADJUSTABLE PLATFORMS
FULL INSTRUMENTATION, SPARCO RACE SEATS WITH AIRCRAFT HARNESSES, FULLY TRIMMED WITH CARPET AND HEAD LINING

All the work has been completed by ourselves to a high standard with attention being paid to details such as stainless bolts used in all non-stressed areas.

FOR MORE INFORMATION CONTACT

MARCUS 01189441521 / 07810650035 MARCUS_MPH@HOTMAIL.COM

TIM 01189268318 / 07880542003 TIM.MACCAWLEY@BTINTERNET.COM

[JohnB_SPY8808053]

Hi Damian,

Welcome to the forums.

Seems like the last time we discussed engine weights, we decided that the Alfa V6 came in at around 375 lbs. It's a bit heavy but at least it's all over the rear axle. The Lancia TC (4 pot) is about 150 lbs lighter and sits lower in the car. You might want to search through the old posts for more details.

Ciao,

John B.

[Stratos]

I know 357_cosworth is enquiring about fitting a Ford engine in this thread, but one thing I'm a bit surprised about is that no-one has ever tried fitting a Vauxhall 2litre - they're very easy to get 200+bhp from, and they're quite light.

In the rallying scene, many MkII escorts have been converted to Vauxhall power.

[357_Cosworth]

The vauxhal uint is a great N/A engine which like you sam on big carbs or throttle bodies can make really good power.

BTW the 16V head was designed for Vauxhall by Cosworth.. if you don't believe me take a look at the stamping on the head says "COSCAST" on it.

With the vauxhall you could also use the Calibra 6sp box converted to 2WD only.

I would also like a 6sp box but thats a whole other can of worms..

Damian

[rutthenut]

Originally posted by 357_Cosworth
I would also like a 6sp box but thats a whole other can of worms..

Fiat have used those on the turbo Coupe, and Alfa have also used one with the V6, in different installations, so they are a possibility for the kits using the 164 or Thema derived engine units, at least. No idea what gearing they use though, it might be little more than an 'overdrive' ratio when in top.

[Stratos]

Originally posted by rutthenut


Fiat have used those on the turbo Coupe, and Alfa have also used one with the V6, in different installations, so they are a possibility for the kits using the 164 or Thema derived engine units, at least. No idea what gearing they use though, it might be little more than an 'overdrive' ratio when in top.

I have enough problems coping with 5 !!!!!!:rolleyes:

[stewart]

Damian,

You've certainly got a good discussion going on this engine issue.

I should have made the point that others have made since, that my recommendation is also to go down a route others have tried unless you have really good reasons (or lots of time and money) to do something totally different.

Speaking as someone who has pioneered a different engine, which has not yet been tried on the road so who knows what problems lie ahead with handling etc, I would in hindsight recommend a more travelled path. An Alfa V6 is certainly the way I'd have gone if I had been able to find an engine, or spent a bit more time on homework. I would have saved a lot of money to this point, and who knows what level of headache for the future.

Still, I'm looking forward to getting the handling etc sorted and using the quite acceptable (for now) horsepower the Nissan engine has.

regards

[chris.richard]

Originally posted by JohnB_SPY8808053
Seems like the last time we discussed engine weights, we decided that the Alfa V6 came in at around 375 lbs.


Is that with or without gearbox?

[Stratos]

Originally posted by JohnB_SPY8808053
Hi Damian,

Welcome to the forums.

Seems like the last time we discussed engine weights, we decided that the Alfa V6 came in at around 375 lbs. It's a bit heavy but at least it's all over the rear axle. The Lancia TC (4 pot) is about 150 lbs lighter and sits lower in the car. You might want to search through the old posts for more details.

Ciao,

John B.

And, is it for 12v or 24v?

[JohnB_SPY8808053]

Sheesh David - I was doing good to remember that much at 4:00 AM. :o

Let's see - I'm too tired to think fo myself but a quick search of the yahoo club site archive gets us this tidbit from Scott. (Hope he doesn't mind me posting it)

Just for yucks, I put the engine for the 164 S on the scale at work.

Ready to run (including engine, tranny, clutch ass'y, intake and exhaust manifolds, brackets, motor mounts, and fluids) the engine assembly came in at 550 pounds.

Not included are the alternator, A/C compressor, and power steering pump. I figure the alternator and bracket probably add another 10-15 pounds.

Which was shortly followed by these from Ken. (Who I also hope doesn't mind me posting.)

In an attempt to reconcile back to 375# for the Alfa V6 engine, I weighed a few of the bits and pieces and then added some estimates to arrive at your 550# number.

375 engine - assuming with flywheel

100 transaxle 475

21 ex. manifolds 486

13 pressure plate 499

30 est. fluids 529

21 est. plenum, + etc. 550

And...

The following engine weights are provided at: www.angelfire.com/ar/dw42/engfyi.htm

Ferrari 246 = 296 lbs.
Alfa V6 12V = 375 lbs.

The 24V Alfa V6 can be estimated by adding two camshafts and adding six on-board ignition coils. The Alfa transaxle is about 75-80 lbs., (I can lift it easily). My best estimate on the Lancia 2.0 is 325 lbs., it is the iron block. On the positive side, the CG is
kept rather low.

That's about it for me - hope it helps - got to go get some sleep now.

John B.

[mogul_x]

Chris,

I'm pretty sure that the 375# figure is engine only. I weighed my 164 drivetrain when I pulled it out of the donor car. Including engine, transmission, and intake, it was about 550 pounds.

That's for a 12v engine, and also includes the mounting brackets for the power steering and A/C compressor. It did not include the alternator or alternator bracket, which I had to remove to get the engine out of the car.

Oops! it looks like somebody already posted that. Sorry for the redundant info.

[Stratos]

Damian,

People are probably going to think that, on a Stratos forum, I shouldn't be doing this, but .....

If you are intent on retaining the Cosworth engine, have you considered a Darrian?

Similar concept to a Stratos, ie mid-engine, but it's size allows an inline installation with the transaxle mounted behind the engine.

There are quite a few around fitted with Millington Diamond engines, which is really about the same as a normally aspirated Cosworth.

I've attached a picture so you know what I am talking about. Not a good looking as a Stratos, but a possibility for your situation.

[rutthenut]

Originally posted by Stratos
People are probably going to think that, on a Stratos forum, I shouldn't be doing this, but .....

But you're the moderator and owner of the forum - who are we to complain! ;)

And I totally concur with your suggestion. The Darrian makes a particularly good home for a Cossie engine.

That would be most suitable as a competition car, whereas the Strat does seem to be a bit more of a road car (and is better looking). I have seen Davrian's as road cars though, and no reason for the later ones not to be used that way too (I'm sure a fair few must have been).

But don't go listening to that advice, the Darrian would be able to out-handle the Stratos, and out-perform it too if fitted with a gutsy Cosworth Turbo! :eek:

[David May]

I would not get too excited about turbo power in a Stratos. I tried that route first using the infamous Alfa V6 'Chernobyl' motor but had endless trouble with cooling (water and air) and found the turbo-lag made the car undriveable - it may have good traction but when all that torque comes in with a bang...

Dave M

[Stratos]

Originally posted by rutthenut
And I totally concur with your suggestion. The Darrian makes a particularly good home for a Cossie engine.

But don't go listening to that advice, the Darrian would be able to out-handle the Stratos, and out-perform it too if fitted with a gutsy Cosworth Turbo! :eek:

Tell me about it. I come up against them all the time on the rallies I do.

Usual spec for them is:-

Millington Diamond engine about 285-300bhp (Normally aspirated)
All up weight, ready to rally, 750kg

Approximate power to weight ratio 400bhp/tonne!!!!!

On dry tarmac, they beat almost everything - even the Metro 6R4s!!!

Can't imagine what one would be like with Damian's Turbo Cosworth installed - awesome!!!!

[rutthenut]

Originally posted by David May
I would not get too excited about turbo power in a Stratos. I tried that route first using the infamous Alfa V6 'Chernobyl' motor but had endless trouble with cooling (water and air) and found the turbo-lag made the car undriveable - it may have good traction but when all that torque comes in with a bang...

I guess this is the 2-litre V6 available in Italy as a tax-break car?

Were you aware of the 'home built' twin-turbo 3-litre V6 that was fitted to a Corse? I always struggle to remember the owners name - Neil something? Unfortunately that car met a sad and fiery end not too long ago. But it was running with the Stradale (non-arched) bodywork and therefore something like 205 or 225 rear tyres.

The engine was dyno tested in the car and reputably put out something like 400hp or more, but a more amazing 400lb/ft of torque below 2000rpm!

So turbo lag wasn't a problem in that case, although I'm sure grip would have been. By all accounts that didn't stop the driver from making the most of it, even on wet roads. I regret never getting the chance to go out in it.

The figures could have been higher than I've quoted, but I'm sure they weren't any lower (and from memory, that was not recorded on the maximum boost available).

[David May]

Yes, the only advantage of the 2-litre V6 was the considerable Italian tax-break (abandoned in 1998, although the engine is still available in the A-R Coupe'.) I haven't met Neil (funnily enough, I too never remember his full name) but did discuss that project with Hugh Carson while I was trying to cure my overheating.

The motor I used was taken straight out of a 164 TB and I only put up the boost (1.2bar) and fitted a pair of camshafts, so it probably would have given about 270hp and 35kgm of torque (around 280lb/ft) had it ever stayed cool enough for long enough!
The major problem with any turbo engine is the enormous amounts of waste heat which needs to be dissipated, almost independant of the absolute power output! Modern turbos dump masses of heat into the water (I used a huge 4-row copper radiator) and oil circuits (2 fan-blown oil coolers) and then the intercooler needs huge amounts of really cold air if any significant boost pressure is used. The Stratos simply does not have that air available - the front is fully loaded with the radiator and the rear is - at best - HOT!
I closely studied the only period car that managed to run big turbos (the Ferrari 208 GTB Turbo) and the rear of that is riddled with NACAR ducts - I decided that the lines of the Stratos were too pretty to spoil with holes and scoops. I got some cold air up from under the car using Teflon scoops dragged below the chassis (an idea also used by Neil for his twin turbos) which I now use to feed the fuel radiator (am I the only person to suffer boiling fuel??)
All told, the single turbo combined with a big intercooler gave absurd lag, which made the car almost undriveable on the loose and the full power was only ever available for a few seconds on hot days before the engine-manangement (wisely) cut the boost back. And with nothing significant below 4000rpm and the limiter at 6500rpm it was very hard to keep on the boil on tight circuits. Maybe it would have worked if I had lived in cold Norway....

There is a UK-built Hawk chassis with a Lancia Delta 2L 4-cyl turbo being run by the Italian importer, but I've never seen performance figures and it's probably a posers car.

I too run Stradale bodywork (the Gp4 arches won't go through the old cow-shed door!) and I am just moving up from 205 to 225 rear tyres. I too would love to experience 400lb/ft in a Stratos!!


Dave May

[colin artus]

Let me think. Turbo engine mounted in the back with prodigeous power output? How about a Porsce GT2? I had one on a chassis dyno giving 720 bhp and 670lb/ft . There is almost no room back there in that installation, it has a single rear mounted intercooler and the engine isnt even watercooled! Which only goes to show that it can be done but the engineering has to be done right.

[rutthenut]

Originally posted by David May
There is a UK-built Hawk chassis with a Lancia Delta 2L 4-cyl turbo being run by the Italian importer, but I've never seen performance figures and it's probably a posers car.

John Whalley has a 'Group A' Integrale turbo engine in his car (with Group 4 arches, for what it's worth). I think he also has water injection fitted, which is one way to reduce the intake temperature and allow a high boost level. Not sure of the real engine spec, and I seem to recall he does not use any form of turbo restrictor on the engine. The car is used for track day outings in UK and Europe. Power claimed to be over 300bhp (but they all say that!). Plenty of torque anyway, I would guess.

Tim and Marcus put quite a bit of work into trying to keep their Thema Turbo engine cool. One minor tweak was to add some clear perspex 'deflectors' alongside the roof spoiler, directing air into the side vents of the bodywork. Another was to put a more simple scoop on top of the louvres, below the roof spoiler. Don't know anything about the power levels of their car, but it's put together very nicely.

The Benetton-coloured car, built by the Etheringham twins, had a 16-valve Lancia Turbo in it, with plenty of serious attention by Peter Ward. Due to limited airflow into (and out of) the rear bodywork, that car was fitted with a Lotus charge-cooler, which allowed the [uprated] cooling system to try and dissipate the heat of the turbo engine. Don't know how successful that was, but it's yet another option to consider if working on turbo installations in restricted engine bay areas.

It would help if the car didn't actually have a boot behind the engine, as ducting of air away from the engine bay would be more effective, even if you can get the air into it in the first place!

For competition cars it is quite feasible to remove the inner panels of the boot, and to add grilles in the rear panel, but that's not such a good idea for a road car I guess.

[JohnB_SPY8808053]

I don't think that a single pair of NACA ducts would look too bad. That yellow hawk with the 308 engine has these and a number of the original turbocharged cars did also. What about opening up the recessed area in the bottom of the tail section just below the license plate. You would have take out some or all of the trunk but it would pobably look Ok if you just replaced that area with a piece of painted expanded aluminum. Would that draw more air through or just mess up the aerodynamics?

Just thinking out loud,


John B.

[JohnB_SPY8808053]

Although I'm sure it's been improved since then, there is some information about John W's car in the back of the Guy Croft book on tuning TC engines. I want to say it had 270 bhp & 310 ft. lbs. but I'm not sure that's right so don't hold me to it. I'll post the info from the book when I get home later today.


John B.

[rutthenut]

Originally posted by JohnB_SPY8808053
Although I'm sure it's been improved since then, there is some information about John W's car in the back of the Guy Croft

I recall a time when JW was swapping different engines in out and of his car so they changed more often than a wh@re's drawers!

So the power figures in that book would have been correct at one point in time, but they are almost certainly describing a different engine spec to what he is using these days.

I wouldn't be surprised to find if it was only running a faily simple spec 8-valve turbo engine, or a high spec unit instead, giving likely power figures of 250bhp to 320bhp or so. Mind you, the torque figures would probably be more useful to know.

[Chris Jarvis]

Builders of 'Deon' (Ferrari Dino replicas) use an Escort RS Turbo front wheel drive gearbox mated to a V6 Ford engine to power their cars.

Most Ford bellhousing mounts are the same, so I guess the only FWD gearbox that could handle the power of an Escort/Sierra Cosworth engine and would fit would be the RS Turbo one.

It was only designed for an eight valve turbo CVH engine, mind.

[David May]

I agree, that a suitably engineered rear-engined car is not a limitation to turbocharging - the problem is that the Stratos was born too pretty to be that functional! The very compactness and tidy lines that make the car so appealing are just at odds with an airy engine-compartment. Sure, the works Turbos worked, but they were among the ugliest things ever to carry a Lancia badge and didn't even look like a Stratos!

I think it's no coincidence that all the successful turbocharged GpB cars used longitudinal engines in generous, partially-open, engine bays. You only have to look at the dimensions of the intercoolers to see how just how much cold air is needed to keep things working. The Porsche benefits from a low skuttle-line and a lot of trick aerodynamics around the engine-cover, plus a generous amount of oil-cooling up front. I know they are called air-cooled but that's only a little bit of the cylinder walls, much of the heat goes into the (very complex) oil circuit.

I'm not knocking the Stratos (I personally think it's one of the finest cars ever built), I just don't see it as the ideal starting point for extreme power units. (There are plenty of ugly kits much better suited to that.)

Now when my 24V gets a bit more worn, I would be very happy to squeeze it up towards a genuine 300hp mark.....


Dave May

[JohnB_SPY8808053]

You're thinking of the Group 5 'silhouette' cars. There were a number of Turbocharged Group 4 cars that looked just like a _normal_ Stratos. Apparently the turbo was not very sophisticated but it did deliver around 325 bhp when the NA cars were running closer to 250.

John B.


PS - Seems like the _theoretical_ maximum power for the G5 cars was something like 590 bhp!

[rutthenut]

Originally posted by Chris Jarvis
Most Ford bellhousing mounts are the same, so I guess the only FWD gearbox that could handle the power of an Escort/Sierra Cosworth engine and would fit would be the RS Turbo one.

It was only designed for an eight valve turbo CVH engine, mind.

I'd be very suspicious of the capabilities of an fwd Escort gearbox, since the engine you mentioned isn't exactly high on horsepower or torque as you perhaps hinted. Now a gearbox from the Rally 'Kit Car' model might be nice though!

I wouldn't be surprised if the Mondeo had a stronger gearbox, maybe that fitted to the V6 engines would cope better?

[rutthenut]

Originally posted by David May
I agree, that a suitably engineered rear-engined car is not a limitation to turbocharging - the problem is that the Stratos was born too pretty to be that

I'd agree with that sentiment, as would most people in this forum, I suspect!

Note also that Lionel Gooch has put together a 'Group 5 style' Stratos replica for circuit racing, which is fitted with an in-line Alfa V6, mated to a Porsche gearbox (I think) and plumbed with twin turbos. The engine layout, and the stretched chassis/body design, makes for very good plumbing arrangements in this case.

I don't know if they've had any cooling problems with it, but there have been other problems associated with the Weber Alpha engine management system, which does not allow for end-user mapping and tuning. Getting it to run right with the turbos has been one of the bigger problems with that car, from what I've heard. But when it's running, it has a decent amount of grunt...

[357_Cosworth]

Blimey away on bisuness for a day and all these replies... Ive not read them all properly but here are a few comments.

I was planning a roof mounted Intercooler like the RS200 had probably something custom made by Pace with the volume of the RS500 ones (huge..!) Likewise I would need a alloy radiator of atleast Cosworth proportions in the front with duel fans. Considering an electric water pump for run on after engine shutdown...? (not sure though)

I would install Oil coolers if required (probably).

I run an ACT guage which I would move onto the Strat to monitor engine inlet charge temp (to check the IC was working.) But at the extreme warter injection could be used when running high inlet temps.

My engine is currently set to run 235Bhp in low boost ... ie pottering around town etc... and as I said 357Bhp in high boost. I wouldn't be thrashing it ALL the time ...lol..

Re lag if I were to start the project I would upgrade to P8 management which would allow me to run ALS and waterinjection for BIG fun.

Escort RS Turbo boxes break in RS turbos at anything above 200Bhp they seem to be made of chocholate, I was thinking Mondeo ST24 or ST200 box myself possibly with a Quaiffe gear kit and ATB diff.

I think traction should be ok, on the cossie I run 225 Yokohama super soft tyres and they stick like a sticky thing. Honestly one of the best mods I have ever made, highly reccomend them as they transformed the cossie's handling (in the dry atleast.) and I would intend to run atleast that size on the Strat.

Re the Davrian.. nah its too ugly. I have loved the Strat since by old man bought me a Atillia burago model on on way back when I was 10 or something... I'm now 30 so its gone on a while now.

I would like cossie power as I know the engine well and know what can be done if funds allow. It has all the good bits as std, steel bottom end, forged pistons etc...etc..

Cheers

Damian




:)

[David May]

I used an auxiliary electric water pump to take the turbo heat out via the cars heater radiator - saves a lot of waiting around to cool things off after a real thrash.

I can't see how any stressed engine can live in a tight bay without good oil cooling - the usual problem is where to put the damn things so the cold air gets to them!

Dave M

[colin artus]

If you get the primary cooling system right then you can get the oil cooling sorted with a water /oil heat exchanger which is how the world rally cars do it. If the standard upright water rad configuration is too small (there are formulae to calculate correct sizing, but practically biggest is best) you can increase the height of the rad by bringing the lower mounting backwards towards the steering rack. The air has to be ducted to the rad and it has to be ducted out. The standard louvre panels on the Strat are too restrictive - on mine I cut out the horizontal section of each individual flange which effectively doubles the open area. My rad is a double pass aly unit, its a motorsport spec 4 core from Alan Docking ( I only bought a core and a friend fabricated the finished rad) that is slighltly taller than the standard unit i.e. as big as the standard mounting will take. It copes fine with 360 bhp of normally aspirated engine.
On John Whalleys car there was a duct mounted underneath the ring spoiler ducting air to the intercooler which was horizontally mounted in the engine bay. He also had a fan on it that was activated by a microswitch on the throttle. Why not fit a water spray like on the Sti Subarus or even more trick use CO2? That should freeze its ball off!

[rutthenut]

Originally posted by colin artus
The standard louvre panels on the Strat are too restrictive - on mine I cut out the horizontal section of each individual flange which effectively doubles the open area.

Colin, I'm not quite sure what you mean here.

First, I guess that you are referring to the front ally louvre panels? So have you kept the angled part of each slot that 'ducts' the air upwards, but removed the lower/leading edge on each, which is basically flat and only serves a visual purpose?

I can see how that would increase the flow capacity of these panels quite effectively, if that is what you mean.

[colin artus]

Yes, you've got it. I might add that by too restrictive I mean for these non standard cooling installations.

[Stratos]

Originally posted by colin artus
It copes fine with 360 bhp of normally aspirated engine.



Hang on a minute!!!

I think you missed out a very vital piece of information here, Colin.

What type of normally aspirated motor is this?????? We want to know!!!!

[chris.richard]

Has anybody any experience of oil/ water heat exchangers in stead of oil cooler radiators; using the water radiator to loose the heat?

[Stratos]

Originally posted by chris.richard
Has anybody any experience of oil/ water heat exchangers in stead of oil cooler radiators; using the water radiator to loose the heat?

I know that Andrew Dearing has one on his car, but have no direct experience myself.

[colin artus]

Its a big block chevy.... No I'm kidding. Its a 308 2/valve in full race spec, dry sumped and on throttlebody fuel injection.
I use a oil/ water heat exchanger and it seems to work well. They come in various sizes depending on cooling requirement and plumb into the return from the rad.

[Stratos]

Originally posted by colin artus
Its a 308 2/valve in full race spec, dry sumped and on throttlebody fuel injection.



Nice!!!

[rutthenut]

Originally posted by Stratos
Nice!!!

And it's a very nice, clean and tidy car too - in lime green
(well, it was when I saw it - don't know it if's changed since then)

[Chris Jarvis]

Originally posted by rutthenut


I'd be very suspicious of the capabilities of an fwd Escort gearbox,

Yes John, fwd Escort gearboxes never were much good, I guess when they were used in Deon Dino reps. it was the only way of fitting a cheap V6 in the back. At the time, Mondeos would not have hit the roads yet, and low price second hand 164s and the like would not have been available.

It's funny how things change, it doesn't seem that long ago, when you couldn't get hold of a 164. I remember it took Bob Sharp quite a while to find one for his conversion.

A rally kit car sequential box (like a Puma) in a Stratos? That would be a laugh!

[JohnB_SPY8808053]

I'd love to hear some more about the Ferrari engine - I don't suppose you'd post some pics and tell us all about it?

John B.

[Jeff Davison]

least ye forget about the "other" forum ;^P

Here's the URL of a 308 engined hawk:

http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/stratosreplicaclub/lst?.dir=/Yellow+Hawk+with+308+Ferrari+engine&.src=gr&.order=&.view=t&.done=http%3a//photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/stratosreplicaclub/lst%3f%26.dir=/%26.src=gr%26.view=t



Jeff Davison

[JohnB_SPY8808053]

I thought the yellow car pictured on the Yahoo site was in the American North-West. It said next to Colin's name that he was in the UK so I thought his must be a diferent one. I did go back and look at the pics of the yellow one though. The engine bay looks pretty tight, but in this case, I think that's a good thing. :) I did notice that there is a small NACA duct on the drivers side. The fuel tank on that side looks like it was removed and replaced with what looks like either cold air ducting to the engine, an oil cooler or maybe both.

John B.

[mogul_x]

John,

I think the yellow car on the Yahoo site is in the American North-East. I know that it's shown up at Carlisle a couple of times, and one of the Italian car breakers near Philadelphia has seen it at a few local shows. This is the car that was misrepresented as a real Stratos in the past.

It's probably a safe bet that the Philadelphia car is not Colin's. It might be nice to see how Colin's installation compares to the other one.

Isn't there a Ferrari engined Hawk in Australia or New Zealand? I thought I read about one somewhere, although now that I think about it, that may have been a 246, not a 308.

[colin artus]

My car is still green. I will see if I can post some photos.

[Stratos]

Colin,

If this is the first time you are posting pictures, you need to be aware that any pictures you attach to messages should be no wider than 500 pixels.

Any pictures uploaded to the photo gallery can be any size because the photo gallery automatically resizes them.

[colin artus]

I've put them in the members gallery.

Colin

[stewart]

Scott,

There is a 308 Ferrari engined Hawk in Australia, but I don't hink any of the photo's I have are of the engine bay. I'll have a look. I am sure that Paul Moreton will have some...Paul are you listening??. The engine is pretty heavily modified too.

Having spoken to the previous owner of this car, he said he made some major changes to the engine bay area for personal reasons to do with his engineering ideas rather than a specific fitment issue. He claimed the car could get from standing to 100kph in under 4sec.

Would be very nice.

cheers

[John]

I will over the next year be gearing up to completion of a part built Corse type "S" which I have just bought. I'll complete it with the Beta volumex engine I have got with it.
However it has occured to me that the Vauxhall V6 engine which I screw together in large quantities every day may well prove an interesting alternative.
It has quite an "upright" narrow profile allowing plenty of room for exhaust manifold work and there is surely quite a range of transmissions available, also readily available from salvage and with quite a useful amount of power in standard form. I suppose it may even make the right noise.
When I get my chassis home I'll run a few measurements and see if it is feasable.
It may even be considered a "legitimate" engine as it is now made under the FIAT-GM Powertrain banner- or is this stretching things a bit far?

[David May]

I don't think the Lancia purists would be too pleased with the GM connection! They didn't want to use the Fiat name at the time (even though the original Stratos V6 motor was the Fiat derivant) and that was when Fiat supported international motor sports at various levels.

Dave May

[mogul_x]

Originally posted by John
However it has occured to me that the Vauxhall V6 engine which I screw together in large quantities every day may well prove an interesting alternative.

It may even be considered a "legitimate" engine as it is now made under the FIAT-GM Powertrain banner- or is this stretching things a bit far?

John,

Which engine exactly do you assemble? Is it the new 3.2 litre, 54 degree included angle v-6 that originally came from Opel?

GM was planning on using this engine in the base models of the Cadillac CTS. Rumor has it that it will eventually end up in Alfa Romeo as well, replacing their 60 degree engine. Of course, none of that is certain, since there are all sorts of conflicting reports over a GM-Fiat merger, and whether or not Alfa Romeo will be included in the deal.

[John]

Scott,
yes indeed that's the engine. It is being made in 3.2 and 2.6 variants for Cadillac in the U.S. in enormous quantities at the moment. The same basic engine design is also made for Saturn jn the "Vue" model and in declining numbers for the Innovate model.
Also in 3.0 Litre turbocharged form for SAAB in their automatic models.
I too have heard that it is possible that an Alfa Romeo badged variant may become a reality, though at present it is only rumour around our plant.
Would that make it any more acceptable to the purists though? (I mean for Stratos use!)
John Davidson.

[JohnB_SPY8808053]

I wouldn't worry about it too much - the fact is that we all stretch it to some extent. If that engine is what you want, you shouldn't let the purist sway you. The downside is that you'd be doing something different which means there is less help available and probably some hidden expense as well.

John B.

[Stratos]

Originally posted by John
Scott,
yes indeed that's the engine. It is being made in 3.2 and 2.6 variants for Cadillac in the U.S. in enormous quantities at the moment. The same basic engine design is also made for Saturn jn the "Vue" model and in declining numbers for the Innovate model.
Also in 3.0 Litre turbocharged form for SAAB in their automatic models.
I too have heard that it is possible that an Alfa Romeo badged variant may become a reality, though at present it is only rumour around our plant.
Would that make it any more acceptable to the purists though? (I mean for Stratos use!)
John Davidson.

John,

What sort of power outputs are we taking about for this engine?

Any idea of weight? Is it alloy or cast iron block?

[SUSIT]

Sorry to re-open a rather old subject but the more iread the more confused i am getting.
I have been offered an 8 valve turbo engine complete for a fairly good price and have almost decided to go for it. Partly as a stopgap for a couple of years.
However after going through the forum it would seem that most folk think the heat issue is a problem.
I was hoping the change from a Beta would be fairly straight forward and not that costly in terms modifications required.
My big problem is whatever i do I dont want to have the car off the road for months. My plan for the Alfa V6 route was to make a mock up of the engine bay and bulkhead and fit the V6 into that until i have it all sorted. May take longer but i get to keep using the car.
So come on guys, Fit the Turbo or tune the Beta?

Stephen Struthers

[Stratos]

The change from Beta to alfa V6 will be easier than the change from Beta to 8vTurbo.

There's not much work involved in changing from a Beta to an Alfa V6 in your Allora. Driveshaft adapters, engine mounts, gear linkage, and exhaust. The exhaust will be the expansive part.

You can have a look at mine when you come down to Abingdon in June - it's not long now.

You'd have most of the same issues with an 8vTurbo, plus a lot more complications with intercoolers, heat-disappation, etc. I think the extra work and cost of installing the 8vTurbo would more than negate any savings of an 8vTurbo over an Alfa V6.

If I were you, I wouldn't get sidetracked by the 8vTurbo.

[roger001]

You pays your money and take your choice, fitting an 8v tubo (presumably you mean a thema or chroma turbo) is probably as much work as fitting a 12v V6. as the turbos head is reversed compared to the beta head, the water plumbing is different as is the exhaust, engine mounts and a myriad of other things.
The only straight swap with minimal work is to use a volumex engine, same engine mounts/plumbing/exhaust only a few wiring changes needed.
People who have gone down the turbo route have indeed had problems with keeping the intake temperatures down, requiring much ducting to an intercooler.
If you intend to go V6 in the end why do the work twice. Another factor is the cost of 12v V6s is negligable these days as has been shown they are giving them away - literally.

Engines are relatively cheap, your labour and time is not.

[BETANUT]

I have what might seem like an odd idea - and perhaps something that could be of interest to those tempted by V6 engines but don't fancy the cost. There are more than one or two Volumex engines kicking around that have lost their superchargers to other causes (I believe David knows what I mean!), to most folk these engines are now pretty useless and are likely to be junked despite the fact they're seriously rare everywhere these days.
I know of a chap in South Africa who has turbo'd a Volumex engine - I've quizzed him about it and basically he has popped a Thema/Integrale 8V turbo onto some custom pipework and deleted the supercharger (can you see where I'm going!!) otherwise the engine is standard VX albeit running an injection system rather than carb.
The VX engine already runs low compression pistons and is capable of taking a turbo... it's just an idea but this guy did it in a beta so it should be simple (relatively!) to do it in a Stratos.
So, find a VX engine less blower indulge in a spot of canny re-engineering to the exhaust and induction and voila! no need for more complicated pipework as a result of 'reversed head' Thema/Integrale/Chroma Turbo engines and almost the same BHP.
If anyone's interested I'll find his email - I'm sure he'd be willing to pass on his experience.

[John]

Earlier in this thread I said I was contemplating fitting this engine to my Corse chassis. Still thinking about it I am now pretty sure it will all fit in. You would think that working in the manufacturing plant information about the engine would be easy to come by-not so! Every body in the plant is production orientated and nobody knows what power outputs our engine has- not even in the test cells(they either pass or they don't). So in our local dealership the other day I picked up a Vectra sales brochure which quotes power output as 211PS. (whats a PS?). Still can't find out what the unit weighs though-it's a cast block with aluminium heads.
As I come from the era of carburettors and distributors can anybody help me with a couple of queries? What are the implications of running a modern engine like this without a catalyser? The spec. also quotes exhaust gas recirculation-whats all that about, and again are there any implications for using non standard manifolds and system?
cheers for now,

[colin artus]

Catalysts:
Modern cats are mounted as upstream as possible in order to reduce lightoff times (to get to working temp as soon as pos). This means that any multi branch manifold apporoacing the optimum length will require moving or dispensing with the cat. The engine will run a closed loop system via a lamba sensor in the exhaust. To retain the original ecu you will have to retain this.
Modern ecus are now incorporating OBD2 (on board diagnostics)
which makes them less adaptable to modifications outside of set parameters - they wont forinstance take kindly to a max power air/fuel ratio, which is a lot richer than lambda 1.
EGR:
Exhaust gas recirculation has been in use since the 70's and basically reintroduces, via a valve in the intake manifold, a proportion of the exhaust gas to be reburnt. This reduces emissions of partially burnt hydrocarbons but does nothing for the power. The system is controlled by the ecu. How it (ecu) would take to the removal of the EGR I dont know.

Because the ECU has to effect a compromise between power, emissions and consumption, with that balance increasingly in favour of the latter two, there has been an increase in the overall efficiency of modern engines to the point where, in mechanical terms they resemble race engines of only a few years ago. This means that there is often a lot of untapped power potential often only held back by the ECU.
Its worth thinking about an aftermarket ECU to a) allow you to dispense with emissions gear and b) get more power.



Colin

[David May]

Its the dreaded OBD that looks set to spoil the fun for everybody. Up until a couple of years ago, Euopean spec. ECUs ran everything in open-loop, except for the single, final lambda sensor. Now they are required to diagnose every function they activate and have additional sensors (2 lambdas) and a whole lot of complex software to recognise malfunctions (including missing parts) and go into 'limp-home' mode.
The old Bosch M3.7 for example only checks that the EGR and evaporation valves are present (but not neccesarily working) by roughly measuring the current they draw - a suitable resistor is enough to fool the diagnosis and put the light off.
With a EOBD (OBD2) ECUs its currently easier to chuck the whole unit and fit an aftermarket - at high cost obviously - (at least until the hackers have come up with suitable code to fully reprogram them.)

Dave May

[John]

Thanks for that information guy's, can't pretend that it's all chrystal clear but I think I get the gist. The standard ignition system is MotronicME3.1.1, is an aftermarket ECU going to be compatible with this? Do you know of any replicas that retain the Cat.?
Also it occured to me that the "drive by wire throttle pedal" would get over some cable routing problems.

[David May]

The problem with any aftermarket ECU system is that they are not built to suit any single engine but need to be configured and programmed to match the application. Unless you are lucky enough to find someone who has already mapped a similar installation, that means setting it up on a rolling road. You will also have to make up all the cabling, since they are not generally pin-compatable.
Not any old ECU will do - most older models only cover 4-cylinder engines and do not cater for knock sensors and lambda sensors.
If you are only after maximum power, that will probably do, but if you have to comply with annual emmission tests (like I do here in Italy) the lambda sensor and catalyser is essential. (To be honest I only fit the cat for the test and then go back to a dummy for racing, before it melts.)
Drive by wire may seem to save you a throttle cable but at the cost of a lot more electric wiring (I know which I prefer!). You will obviously have to use the full engine-management with their motorised throttle valves etc, and you will obviously end up with a system that tailored for goods emissions, not good power or throttle response. Most systems at this level have the engine ECU communicating with the ABS, gearbox and various other modules and they simply won't work if they don't find them all!

Dave May

[chris.richard]

If your car is already registered without needing a catalyser, you won't need one-they don't contribute anything to power or ECU input. The Lambda sensor is upstream of it. However, if you still need to go through the SVA, you will need a cat to satisfy it.

[rutthenut]

My Alfa 156 has got a drive-by-wire setup and it's not something I want in the system. Obviously it's down to the ecu programming, but it removes one more level of directness and leads to a softer throttle response. The system will only open the throttle valve at the speed it wants, to the position it wants, regardless of how quick or hard I press the bloody pedal!

Routing a cable shouldn't be that much of a problem, although a floor-mounted pedal can help a lot in this regard as the cable can then run straight back along the central tunnel area.

[John]

Thanks again for the input fella's. All food for thought.
John.

[David May]

I hate to agree with John (shooting myself in the foot here) but drive-by-wire in its current form is a retrograde step as far as the driving experience goes. It does make emssison control a whole lot easier and allows all sorts of electronic transmsisson tricks, but its still basically slow!! The sportier incarnations (Ferrari 360) resort to ignition retarding to kill the power while the sluggish motor grinds the throttle closed, and it can make a good aspirated engine feel like a turbo!

I rather doubt if our future, superclean engines will ever have the snap of those dirty-old twin-chokes.

Dave May

[Stratos]

While the subject of Alternative Engines has come up again, does anyone know anything about the 3litreV6 unit used in the Jaguar.

Is this a normally-aspirated version of Ford's Duratec engine?

[colin artus]

Same block but new heads, I believe.


Colin

[rutthenut]

Originally posted by David May
(shooting myself in the foot here)

What's your point here?
Do these comments go against your day job?

It's definitely not good for engine power and response to have all of these intermediate electronics in the process.
The manufacturers may harp on about links to F1 (automatic gearchanges, fly-by-wire throttle) but although the technology has similarities it is set up for completely different aims.

I remember early road-test comments on cars that were fitted with electronic fuel injection, where they often lamented the lack of outright throttle response compared to a good carb setup. There is the point that efi can work better across a rev range, whereas carbs and manifolds were usually tuned for optimum at a certain point in the rev range. Seems like fly-by-wire is just another place for the namby-pambies to dictate that cars aren't supposed to be fun...

And then there is the future for electronic speed control dictated by roadside beacons. This could be added to any ecu-based system, at huge cost in complexity and (I think) potential safety. But that's all a different topic entirely. Just give me an engine that can be set up to perform in the way that we want or need, not always dictated by nebulous arguments on the environment (some of which are admittedly based on fact).

[Stratos]

I've decided I want one of these:-

Engine type - V8
Max Revs - 14,000
Power - 350bhp (approx)
Weight - 75Kgs

75Kgs!!!!

Only downside is I need to win the lottery first, because the price is about £15,000

There are 2 different engines being produced. One by Quaife and a different design by Radical. The Radical one was on display at the Autosport Show.

[colin artus]

Two Hyabusa engines on a common crank. There was a similar effort some ten years ago using two 1 litre Yamaha blocks/heads that was purportedly to be fitted to the Light Car Co Rocket. It was displayed at the Racing Car Show when it was at Olympia. Nothing seemed to come of it though. Perhaps it is idea whose time has come, though it strikes me that much the same effect can be achieved by linking two of these engines to a common drive for a lot less money. Not so elegant though.


Colin

[David May]

Yes, John, I'm afraid that my day job does involve spoiling the pleasure of driving with the application of electronics! As a Driver, I too lament some of the results, but then if you want 'F1'-style gearshifts and intelligent anti-spin, you just have to have full electronic control.
As usual, it's often a matter of cost and reliability - guillotine throttles and rapid actuators are out there, but they are not for the masses.
I'm afraid I just can't see how we can return to the fun of
driving while meeting emission and sefety restrictions. I hope I'm wrong! In the meantime, probably the best fun can be had from early 1990s powertrains.

Dave M

[Stratos]

Originally posted by colin artus
Two Hyabusa engines on a common crank. There was a similar effort some ten years ago using two 1 litre Yamaha blocks/heads that was purportedly to be fitted to the Light Car Co Rocket. It was displayed at the Racing Car Show when it was at Olympia. Nothing seemed to come of it though. Perhaps it is idea whose time has come, though it strikes me that much the same effect can be achieved by linking two of these engines to a common drive for a lot less money. Not so elegant though.


Colin

Spot on, Colin.

CCC are reporting the Quaife unit being based on the 10year design.

The Radical system is the two Hyabusa engines on the common crank as you say. It is destined for a new Radical Race Championship, so is probably the most likely to actually get into production. It was shown on the MaxSys Engines stand at the recent Autosport Show.