5 Stud Hub conversion

[Matt No VAT]

Hi All,

Once again I thought I'd share my findings with the rest of the "builders" out there or anyone who is considering converting to 5 stud hubs.

The instructions are very clear... in fact so clear they are completely transparent!! ;~) (Only kiddin!)

I did find a few things out as I went along so heres the story so far, please bear in mind that I'm only halfway through the conversion, namely just the rears at the moment. So there could be more to add!

The easy bit first, jack the car up and remove the rear wheels, remove the brake calipers, brake disk , undo the hub carriers undo the 6 13mm driveshaft retaining bolts and go buy yourself a 36mm socket.

Upon purchasing the 36mm socket, I found that I had to grind down the outer edge of mine so that it would fit inside the hub to reach the driveshaft retaining bolt.

With that off, find yourself someone with a press, I changed my wheel bearings while everything was off (I used Integrale wheel bearings) press in the new bearings and then the 5 stud hub.

If your thinking ...."This is all too easy....its all going so smoothly..........." you'd be right!!

I had a selection of Integrale driveshafts/CV joints ready and waiting. So I Popped off the only 8v CV joint that I had. (NO ABS.... remember this bit, as its important later on!!) I popped off the old Beta CV joint, as these do not protrude far enough through the bearing to get the nut on properly and set about fitting the Integrale CV joint to the Beta driveshaft, repack it with CV grease and fit to the O/S rear of the car.

Perfect fit, lovely job, crack on with the other rear and Bobs yer Uncle I thought! This is the part where the spanner entered the works! :~)

I now had to use 16v (with ABS) for the N/S rear, carried out the same steps as before but when I tightened up the driveshaft nut the whole driveshaft locks up.... completely. After a little investigation and a liberal coating of copperslip in the right place I found that the 16v CV fouls against the Beta lock ring that retains the wheel bearing!

Got myself a few more Integrale driveshafts/CV joints and bingo - all went in without issue.

Cue...... Matt's big grin!!

So in short if your cars rear hubs are fitted with Beta lock rings then you MUST use 8v Integrale CV joints with No ABS, I know some of the later cars have the circlip in place of the Beta lock ring for retaining the wheel bearings. Maybe these are the cars that have done the conversion using 16v Integrale CV joints without any issues.

Can someone comment/confirm on thier setup?

This has been a great deal of fun so far so now its time to move onto the fronts :~)

[chris.richard]

You're just in front of me on this, so keep going! :-)

I've made the mistake of removing the hub carriers with the driveshafts from the car before loosening the hub nut. I bought my 36mm socket today, but can I shift the nut? Can I buggery. I put the hub carrier in the vice, used a large bolt through a wheel bolt hole to stop the hub turning by wedging on the hub carrier, put a breaker bar on the socket, heaved, sweated, farted and shifted the vice mounting bolts on the bench. Not the ones I wanted to move. Any bright ideas anyone? Presumably if I'd loosened it on the car before I'd started, the engine would have stopped the driveshaft turning.

The 36mm nut I'm struggling with is proud of the hub / wheel mounting surface though - is there another on the driveshaft underneath that needs a slimline socket?

I'm interested to hear that you can still use the original locknut to secure the wheelbearings if you use the right CV joint - I'd been told that any Integrale CV joint would entail machining the hub carrier to accept a circlip. Good news that you've found otherwise. :-)

[Matt No VAT]

I sold Gerry a load of brand new Beta hub lock rings and I kept a couple back for myself as I have restored a Beta Coupe tool.

I have access to the Lancia Special tool that removes these lock rings without "killing" them.

8v Integrale driveshafts fit straight in with no machining on cars with Beta lock rings - I finished that job tonight!

I have pics of where to weld the brackets for the V6 engine mounts, send me a blank email and I'll post them to you.
MattNoVAT@aol.com

As for getting that 36mm nut of, I have done it but its a bit if a brutal method!

This method assumes that your replacing the wheel bearings and switching to Integrale 8v outer CV's at the same time as they wont survive this!

Localised Application of Force Method

First remove the brake disk this will now allow you access to the 36mm nut unhindered.

If your not going to be using the Beta Outer CV, get an angle grinder and grind the nut face off one side until you almost reach the thread of the shaft - then chisel the remainder off.

Find a suitably sized socket and hammer out the hub from the inside, this will more than likely kill the wheel bearing, but as I said I replaced mine while doing all this.

As I said its brutal !!

Cheers

[rutthenut]

Originally posted by Matt No VAT
If your not going to be using the Beta Outer CV, get an angle grinder and grind the nut face off one side until you almost reach the thread of the shaft - then chisel the remainder off.

That sounds like the method I had to take when I just wanted to change an outer CV joint!

I couldn't budge the nut, even though the hub carrier and so on were still attached to the car. This nut is supposed to be tightened up to something like 230lbs/ft if I recall, which is easy enough to translate as a person standing on a breaker bar! A garage I know describes this sort of torque level as 'F.T.' - translated to something like 'Flipping Tight'.

And that's just to torque it up in the first place. Removing it again some years later is harder still. Not something that WD40 will deal with...

If you can get the socket onto the nut with the wheel mounted, and the tyre on the ground, you will find it much easier to get some leverage. The transmission and engine friction is not enough to work against in this case (or else you wouldn't be able to bump start a car). With the wheel removed, some sort of lever can be made up to go over the wheel bolts/studs, which is what I think they describe in the Haynes manual. Even then, you would need either a very strong vice mounting or a way to position the lever so that it works onto the floor. If you can do that, brute force on the breaker bar may well loosen the nut.

Not having an angle grinder, I used powerfile instead. Not as powerful, but it eventually got me there. It is possible to grind away the side of the nut without damaging the threads on the CV assembly. That, and using a chisel to cut into the nut itself, eventually gave me some chance of shifting the nut.

This diificulty is nothing to do with the kit assembly itself, just a bugger of a maintenance job made worse when components get that bit older and more settled in place and the suitable 'factory' tools are not to hand.

[chris.richard]

doing it with the wheel on would explain why Matt had to grind down his socket - I was puzzled by that.

I had a mate who built rally cars as part of his profession - he said there were three torques, finger tight, tight and F tight. Seems this scale is universal!

More seriously, how important are all the different specified torques - Haynes manuals list dozens for just about every nut and bolt, but those of us working from Hawk manuals are, erm, less restricted in our choice. How much do they matter?

[mogul_x]

Matt,

Just confirming that the late series cars with the Circlip retainer for the rear wheel bearings will accept the 16v outer CV joints.

I have my halfshaft assemblies put together, except for the inner CV joint. I intalled the shaft into the hub, and put the retaining nut on until it was finger tight. Everything moved freely, and there were no problems with the ABS ring hitting anything.

Now, once I actually apply the specified torque, that may change, but it doesn't appear that there will be a problem.

[mogul_x]

Originally posted by chris.richard
doing it with the wheel on would explain why Matt had to grind down his socket - I was puzzled by that.

Chris,

It's possible that the 36mm socket will need to be ground down regardless. Not for removing the Beta hub, but possibly for installing / removing the Delta hub.

The Beta hub does only have the one nut that is proud of the surface of the hub - no hidden nut beneath that would require a slimline socket. Remove that, and it should come apart, unless the splines have all rusted together. I had that problem on my MR2.

As for the Integrale hub - the one that I have has a boss that is proud of the wheel mounting surface. I think it locates the wheel radially on the hub, so the lugs don't end up carrying the entire load. The nut ends up fitting down inside that when it's all together. The inside surface of the boss is tapered. So, depending on the outer diameter of the socket, it may not fit all the way to the bottom.

In my case, the socket hits the inside of the boss at a point where it engages only about half of the hex on the nut. It's enough to get it snugged down with a wrench, but I don't know if it'll handle the specified installation torque - or removing the nut later for that matter. To play it safe, I'll need to either grind down my socket, or find a smaller diameter model to ensure full engagement of the hex surfaces.

[/i]More seriously, how important are all the different specified torques - Haynes manuals list dozens for just about every nut and bolt, but those of us working from Hawk manuals are, erm, less restricted in our choice. How much do they matter? [/QUOTE]

With regard to specified torques -that's a big question for which there probably isn't a simple answer. For general applications, like holding doors on, I'd use the generic specification listed for that fastener size. There's usually a little table somewhere in the front of the Haynes manual that lists these.

For specific applications, like anthing to do with the engine or driveline, I rigorously adhere to OE specs. These are often times different than the standard values for a given size, and were derived to ensure that the joint behaves a certain way. Ususally, they specify much higher than normal torques, and use specially engineered fasters, to cope with the severe forces in these applications. If you under-torque, things might loosen up, potentially resulting in damage, or presenting a safety hazard.

Similarly, over-torquing can also cause problems. Again, I use the MR2 as an example. If you over-torque the lug nuts, you get brake rotor warpage. I've seen a lot of online forums saying to torque lug nuts on MR2 to exactly 76 ft-lb - no more, no less.

Just my opinion, though.

[chris.richard]

Originally posted by rutthenut


This nut is supposed to be tightened up to something like 230lbs/ft if I recall, which is easy enough to translate as a person standing on a breaker bar!

This gave me an idea, so with the hubcarrier in the vice, I took a swing on the end of the breaker bar. My next task is to bolt the top back on the workbench......:rolleyes:

[mogul_x]

Chris,

When I set about taking apart my Beta donor hubs, I never was able to break the nuts loose by hand. I took the whole half-shaft / upright assembly into work, clamped the hub in a vise, and ended up requiring an air-impact wrench to get it apart.

I tried using a breaker bar to loosen the hub nuts on my 164 (I won't get into why). My meager 170 pound frame wasn't up to loosening them with a 24 inch breaker bar, so I ended up resorting to longer and longer "persuaders".

I finally had a 5 foot piece of pipe over the end of the breaker bar, giving me something like 800 foot pounds of torque to loosen it. Guess what..... the breaker bar broke, but that nut was still firmly attached to the car!

You may end up having to use an air gun like I did - do you know anybody who has one?

[chris.richard]

I think I'll resort to the "Armageddon" approach tomorrow since I'm replacing the CV joints, hubs and bearings. And when I build up the new ones, I'll use some copperslip. The bloke at Whalleys was talking about you today - you must be famous!

[Matt No VAT]

Today was going to be a big day...

I was supposed to fit the brake disks, then put the studs in on the rear hubs and finally fit my lovely Image wheels.

Remember the bit earlier when the "spanner entered the works" well the toolbox wasn't far behind it and today saw a very disappointed Matt :~(

Went to put on the rear wheel and it didn't fit!!! Arrrggghhhhh!

The long and the short of it is Image have cocked up one of my wheels by only machining out the centre spiggot to 55mm when the other 3 wheels are all 58mm. (58mm being the size of the Integrale hub.) So the wheel flops about and wont sit on properly.

I briefly thought about putting a spacer, on but decided against it as the wheel studs would be the only thing that hold the wheel against the hub face, rather than the hub locating in the centre of the spiggot.

In a word........................... GUTTED

Wheel has to go back to Image to be sorted out......

More delays... :~(

[chris.richard]

I had a successful day. The angle grinder did the job for the hub nuts, drive shafts are dismantled, bulkhead out and old engine mounts off. Brackets to be moved are coming off, my only problem was after removing the safety guard from th angle grinder to get in closer, I've got a couple of deep holes in my left hand where the safety guard obviously used to do some good work. But the hot disc automatically cauterises the gashes, so its not all bad. Sorry to hear about the wheel, don't these things really piss you off when other people balls-up?
Any suggestions of alternatives to the Lancia tool for removing the castlated bearing retaining nut?

[Matt No VAT]

Whenever I've had to remove the Beta Lock Rings I've always used my friends Lancia Special tool, the only thing that could be a positive on this front is that I know Gerry definately has some brand new ones - in case you have to pursuade them out!

On the subject of the wheel - yes its a real pisser, I had all day today earmarked for finishing the back of the car and dropping it onto the ground and then jacking the front up and starting that, but alas more delays when I could be cracking on with the job.

Unsure what to do as I like to deal with one job at a time and get that right, rather than doing lots of different jobs concurrently.

I know one thing, I'm not paying for the wheel to be fixed, the tyre to be removed or the carriage to/from Image. For £1050 I expect them to get it right.

I must say thought that the one Image wheel does look excellent on the car.

If only they all matched....................................

[chris.richard]

Presumably I'd need a Lancia tool to torque them up as well? They're at a hell of a torque - not easily achieved, I suppose.

[Stratos]

Originally posted by chris.richard


This gave me an idea, so with the hubcarrier in the vice, I took a swing on the end of the breaker bar. My next task is to bolt the top back on the workbench......:rolleyes:


:p :p :p :p

[mogul_x]

Originally posted by chris.richard
The bloke at Whalleys was talking about you today - you must be famous!

Chris,

Was this directed at me? :confused:

If so, I hope they had good things to say. I'm a little surprised they'd even remember me - although I guess having a badly jetlagged Yank stumble into your shop first thing in the morning might be something out of the ordinary!

Cheers,

[Matt No VAT]

After finishing a 30 hour stint on-site in Swindon I still found time to speak with Harry at Image wheels and explained the situation I had with my wheel.

I was extreemly impressed when he said that he'd have them collected andd sort out the wheel and return it to me FOC, I didn't even have to ask... Now theres a man who knows the meaning of customer service!

After a wee snooze I think I'll start the front hubs:)

[chris.richard]

Originally posted by mogul_x




Was this directed at me?



Yep, it was you Scott!

[chris.richard]

Originally posted by mogul_x


For specific applications, like anthing to do with the engine or driveline, I rigorously adhere to OE specs.


And the OE specs torques for a Hawk suspension are...?

Hmmm:(

[mogul_x]

Chris,

I guess my answer really didn't address our situation specifically enough, did it? Whoops!

In hindsight, what I probably should have said was:

For engine and driveline applications where the donor car service manuals can be used as a reference, I'd defer to the values given. Lancia Beta for halfshafts, Alfa 164 for brakes and engine, Fiat 132 for front hubs, uprights, etc.

For the custom made components, like the suspension, I'd go with the standard, tabulated values for the fastener size used. If you know the size, thread pitch, and grade, you should be able to find installation Torque somewhere. If it's not in the Haynes manual, I'm sure it can be found somewhere else.

Now I'm curious myself. If I find a good source for that, I'll let you know.

[rutthenut]

Originally posted by mogul_x
Now I'm curious myself. If I find a good source for that, I'll let you know.

Engineer to Win,

Race and Rally Car Sourcebook,

Stratos Replica Club newsletter from about 6 years ago - and no, I cannot remember the issue number :rolleyes:

and various other publications, manuals, text books, etc.

[rutthenut]

Originally posted by chris.richard
And the OE specs torques for a Hawk suspension are...?

Come on, enough of these digs!

And do you mean to tell me you would actually use a torque wrench for each and every bolt setting? If the answer is yes, then you probably know what settings to use already...

[chris.richard]

What I was trying to clarify is which ones I can just do up "T" or "FT", and which ones are more critical - Manuals, eg Haynes, often tell you to tighten to some specified torque, but I never see torque wrenches in use in any garage I've worked in. Engines/gearboxes I would certainly follow the specs, and I wouldn't for bolting in the seat or the dash, but where in between do you stop?

[mogul_x]

Originally posted by rutthenut
And do you mean to tell me you would actually use a torque wrench for each and every bolt setting?

OK John, I'll admit it....

YES! I would use a torque wrench for every bolt setting.... Well, every bolt that was responsible in some way for safety or vehicle control, at any rate.

Must be the engineer in me. You know how famous we are for not being able to do anything without a specification. ;)

And no off color jokes here, guys... I'm aware of how tempting an opportunity I just presented. :D

[colin artus]

The best source on this subject is a book by Carroll Smith (author of Engineer to Win ) called Nuts Bolts & Fasteners. Obviously there are engineering textbooks dealing with this but the Carroll Smith book is easily understandable and aimed specificaly at the race car builder/engineer.
As far as OE Hawk/ Transformer torque settings are concerned, each bolt is sized for its intended job and each size of bolt has an optimum torque setting which is as close to the bolts yield strength as is practically possible (about 95% using a torque wrench). Beyond the maximum yield strenth the bolt will permanently deform and it will fail beyond its ultimate tensile strength.To achieve the full performance of a bolt it is best to install it measuring bolt stretch not torque. In practise the only bolts that are usally done this way are connecting rod bolts, the most highly stressed application.
In fact it is better to overtighten than to undertighten a bolt as stress cycle failures increase markedly below 90% YTS. Even better to get them just right!
Incidentally the metric designation for bolts (12.9 etc) gives you
a material spec for UTS/YTS.
If I can Find my copy I will post the table for metric fasteners.

[Matt No VAT]

Can anyone out there help me with a small dilemma??

As part of my 5 stud hub conversion kit I got the new brake caliper mounting kit which is made up of the actual mounts that you replace the old Beta caliper mounts with, but there is what I presumed was a spacer also supplied for each mount.

It looks a bit like a cartoon dog bone, with a hole drilled at each end, I thought this may sit between the caliper and the mount, BUT the holes dont line up with the caliper OR the new mount?

Where does it go then? :confused:

[chris.richard]

I assumed that was the spacer for the rear caliper.

[Matt No VAT]

I assumed it was for the front calipers - as my "spacers" were taped to the new front caliper mounts.

Will have a butchers tomorrow.

[mogul_x]

Matt,

Chris is right - That little dog bone spacer does fit the rear. At least it looks like it does, based on the hole spacing. I guess I won't know for sure until I actually try installing the rear calipers.

I was also confused about them at first. I think my rear spacers were taped to the boxes containing a set of Fiat 132 wheel bearings that I ordered with my kit. I had to go through a slightly more lengthy process of elimination before realizing they were the rear caliper spacers.

As for the front adapters - I have a question of my own. Am I right in assuming that , when installed, the bottom edge should be parallel with the bottom of the front upright? That way seems to look right, and gives ample clearance to the lower control arm.

[Matt No VAT]

Once again this forum has proved to be of invaluable!!

Yup, the spacer fits my rear calipers perfectly. Just have to wait for the new pads and 132 wheel bearings to arrive so I can fit everything together.

On the subject of the new brake mounts and thier orientation, the recess faces inward, I have attached a picture of my cars O/S assembly:

On my mounts theres a small groove cut in the centre of what I assumed was the top of the mount, you can just make it out in the image.

[chris.richard]

Originally posted by Matt No VAT
Hi All,

So in short if your cars rear hubs are fitted with Beta lock rings then you MUST use 8v Integrale CV joints with No ABS,



Photo shows the integrale 8v non-ABS CV joint on the left, the Beta on the right. Note the non-splined section on the Beta, which is why, when doing the 5-stud conversion, you must either machine out some of the splines on the Integrale hub, or use the integrale CV joint.

Bugger, forgot to resize the image. Try again.

[chris.richard]

fingers crossed

[rutthenut]

That's odd, because when I fitted new outer CV joints, they had a full-length spline, although I only ordered Beta parts.

I guess the supplier/manufacturer just offers the later style as it will fit the older hub parts and reduce their inventory?

Your photo does show the difference quite clearly though, so is useful to further explain the comments entered on this topic.