downdraught dellorto transverse engine

[junior]

Just looking at the carb options for my montecarlo.
According to Guy crofts book they are:
SIDEDRAUGHT:
Weber DCOE 40 45 48
Dellorto DHLA 40 45 48
Solex ADDHE 40

DOWNDRAUGHT:
Weber DCNF 40 44

Is there an equivalent dellorto to the Weber DCNF suitable for transverse engines?

[tryphon]

Who said the DCNF are suitable for transverse engines? They suffer fuel starvation on left hand turns.
Better look at IDF or IDA Webers.

[Marmott]

I used to run a 2000 beta unit dry sumped and on 2 x 45 DCOE'S, i STILL HAVE A SPARE MANIFOLD SOMEWHERE.

[junior]

(TRYPHON):Little confused now as DCNF's are what are recommended by Guy Croft and mike's monte site: http://www.lanciamontecarlo.net/Montecarlo/Power.html and on the monte hospital uprated carb link in the parts section of: http://www.montehospital.co.uk/
(MARMOTT): My engine is standard 8 valve N/A (118 BHP) Would 45's be a little too big? I was thinking about 40's What would you want for it anyway?

Thanks both of you for your comments

[tryphon]

You have to be careful here. The 40 DCNF carbs as found on the Dino 246 and 206 will suffer fuel starvation due to their orientation. However those mounted on the Ferrari 308 won't. I think something changed from one model to the other but I have to check which exact reference each car uses.
In any case better stand clear of DCNF as they are more expensive (the Ferrari name is involved) and have many chances of performing less well than, say, IDF.

[Symbiont]

If you're thinking of using Weber IDAs, you might want to look here:
http://www.speed-technology.com/efi_main_page.html
these bolt up really nicely to an IDA/IDF/DCOE manifold (using adapters sometimes)
PROs: no fuel starvation in turns/accel/decel, better power, no stalling, can be run with very small cc injectors for small engines, amazing fuel atomization
CONs: extra equipment needed (tuned computer, crank angle sensor, wiring harness, injectors, fuel regulator, fuel pump, fuel rail, possibly vacuum lines), changes car from carb'd to EFI (only a problem if going for reasonable historical accuracy), tricky setup period (initial install is easy, bolts and whatnot, comp tuning is a little bit of a pain), and of course, price (~1,200 Australian, just for throttle bodies, fuel rail, ram tubes, and throttle linkages)
IMHO, takes a lot of the guesswork and inefficiency out of an engine, but a bit of a pain to get fully configured to work at peak

[tryphon]

Why on earth would anyone want to convert a carbed car to fuel injection?
You'll miss all the fun stuff...

[BETANUT]

(TRYPHON):Little confused now as DCNF's are what are recommended by Guy Croft and mike's monte site.
My engine is standard 8 valve N/A (118 BHP) Would 45's be a little too big? I was thinking about 40's What would you want for it anyway?

I never had any starvation problems with DCNF carbs on my Beta, so you shouldn't suffer on the Monte. DCNFs (40's) would be the way to go on a standard engine, give is some meaningful cams and some head work and the 45 DCOEs will give ultimate power, but if I remember right there's bulkhead issues with DCOEs and Montes?
I'd stick with a set of DCNF carbs, although IDFs are worth considering if the inlet manifold for them can be found.
You might like to try posting your query on www.lancisti.net (http://www.lancisti.net) where Monte/Scorpion enthusiasts abound.....

[mogul_x]

If you're investigating carburetors for your Montecarlo, be sure to take into account the availability of intake manifolds.

Dual DCNF's are a proven (and sometimes preferred) setup on Montecarlos, because they fit in the available space without having to relocate any of the adjacent linkages. A DCOE setup will require modification to the shift linkage, dipstick tube, and possibly the alternator mounting.

Unfortunately, the manifolds for DCNF's are no longer available new, which means you may have to search for one, and be prepared to pay for it when you come across one. Expect somewhere in the range of GBP300-400 with carburetors in used condition. Bear in mind that the intake manifold for the Monte is unique, and a Beta Coupe DCNF manifold won't fit.

DCOE manifolds are available new through Monte Hospital or Guy Croft, but require a fair amount of fiddling to accomodate.

[junior]

I have located a set of IDF carbs and manifold for my monte but have still got conflicting reports on their suitability for transverse engines. Has anybody used these with transverse engine?

Regards

[tryphon]

The DCNF have a problem. The IDF can be fitted both longitudinally and transversally. The Dino engine of the Stratos uses IDF fitted N/S the Fiat 124 Spider Abarth uses IDF E/W, no problems whatsoever.

[mogul_x]

Tryphon,

I need to ask - when you say DCNF are unsuitable for transverse engines, what orientation are you assuming? The long axis of the carburetor fitted N/S (perpendicular to the engine crankshaft)?

The only picture of a 308 I could find (which you say uses DCNF's) looked like it had the long axis of the carburetor running E/W (parallel to the engine crankshaft). DCNF's on a Montecarlo are fitted the same way. All four chokes will be in a straight line running E/W.

This is a Montecarlo in question, not a Stratos.

[tryphon]

DCNF mounted N/S will suffer fuel starvation in left hand corners, by design.
The DCNF used on the Dino are not identical to those used in the 308 even if in both cases they are 40mm. Ferrari improved the design for the 308. If you can get 308-sourced DCNF you might be OK but why take chances and not use what's best in both cases (N/S and W/E) i.e. IDF?
For hot-rods I've heard many good comments on the more radical IDA. You might want to consider these too.

[mogul_x]

Only reason I asked about the DCNF's is that I've seen them used on Betas and Montecarlos with no problem - and I have a DCNF setup for my Montecarlo that is waiting to be installed. I wasn't aware that anyone had done an IDF manifold for Montecarlo, having never seen one.

As for IDA's on a hot rod - I'd love to put quad IDA carbs on my Nova, but they don't look like they'll fit under the hood. I've seen a quad IDF setup that might fit, but it'll be close. Might require a cowl induction hood, which never looks right on third generation Chevy Novas.

[junior]

I didnt know that you could get an IDF manifold for a monte. I am still waiting for the gentleman to get back to me with the price. If anybody wants me to email photo's to them, of these IDF's, let me know.

[CorseChris]

I'm in the throttle body/EFi camp on this one :)

Set of throttle bodies off a GSXR 750, about £100 complete on Ebay at the moment, some minor mechanical work to space them out, maybe some flanges to adapt to the manifold you get, a fuel rail & regulator kit and either an off the shelf ECU or one of the MegaSquirt family. Interesting project, likely not much more expensive than carbs and way more capable...

...IMHO.

[Chris J]

Tryphon is right about the 308 DCNFs.

I never had any problem with them on my GT4. I stripped them all down and rebuilt them, checking that the floats were all adjusted the same, but the thing that really needed setting were the idle jet screws. 'Never had a problem with fluel starvation or anything.

The 308 carbs are a later version than the V6 Dino ones, but I can't think what they changed? They look a bit different from the top where the air horns fit.

The obvious thing is that they are mounted 90 degrees different to the V6 Dino, so a 308 has them mounted the same way round as a Beta.

[Chris J]

Throttle bodies would be the best thing. I just like carbs. 'cos they're nice and 'Stone Age' technology.

Choice of carbs for Beta would be side draught Weber or Dellorto. 45s or 40 for standard, but I'm only guessing and I have'nt read Guy Croft's book. They are VERY noisy though.

[tryphon]

There's nothing like carbs. The sound, the push, the smell, the raw power. Carbs make today's EFI systems feel like you have an electric motor in the car. Long live Weber!!!

[mogul_x]

I didnt know that you could get an IDF manifold for a monte.

Neither did I! A quick search of the internet yesterday yielded a couple of guys who fitted IDF's to Lancia Scorpions. One was using a modified Fiat 125 manifold - the other didn't say how he mounted them.

Here's the link to the thread on Lancisti.net. Maybe you can ask one of them how it was done...

http://www.lancisti.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1164&view=previous&sid=abbeee7baab42f900a0a1264ffa4e28f

[CorseChris]

There's nothing like carbs. The sound, the push, the smell, the raw power. Carbs make today's EFI systems feel like you have an electric motor in the car. Long live Weber!!!

I think your nostalgia gland is swollen Tryphon ;)

The sound... well TBs will make the same noise won't they?

The smell... well, fuel leaks can be arranged ;)

Push... well, you could always map in some bad behaviour at the lower rev range to simulate the less than perfect fueling of carbs at low air speeds ... so it suddenly starts to perform the way it should as the revs pick up.

Power...at least the same with TBs but likely more, as you don't have to suck the air past a venturi....

Part-throttle economy will improve on TBs.


But TBs/EFi wouldn't do much for the originality.....and I'm not going to convince you am I?? :)

[tryphon]

It's not an originality issue as some Gr.4 cars had Kugelfischer mechanical injection. Fuel economy is a non-issue also when fun and sport come into play.
Technological advances always target the mass market so in this case EFI will save fuel, may produce more power, will start the car faster, bla-bla...but I maintain that nothing will beat carbs for fun, feeling, sound and pleasure. The occasionnal backfire adds a lot too. Carbs are the way to go full stop.

[guy mayers]

I'm going to agree with Tryphon on this one but stick to the EFI on the Alfa in mine. Sourced a new exhauxt cam and dizzy for the Fiat so I'll be fitting that lot whilst the Pirelli paint is applied to the Stratos and the Fiat can have it's twin 40 DCOMs back on. Sod the stereo! Give me induction roar!
Guy

[chris.richard]

The occasionnal backfire adds a lot too. Carbs are the way to go full stop.

Can't beat a turbo for that anti- lag BANG! :eek: :D

[mogul_x]

If I could find an intake manifold, I'd switch my Alfa engine over to carburetors just to simplify the electrical system. Not looking forward to sorting that rat's nest...

[tryphon]

Can't beat a turbo for that anti- lag BANG! :eek: :D

I have that on my Cosworth. It scares children and old people for miles around...

[colin artus]

The Alfa 6 had carbs - six singles!

Colin

[CorseChris]

It's not an originality issue as some Gr.4 cars had Kugelfischer mechanical injection. Fuel economy is a non-issue also when fun and sport come into play.
Technological advances always target the mass market so in this case EFI will save fuel, may produce more power, will start the car faster, bla-bla...but I maintain that nothing will beat carbs for fun, feeling, sound and pleasure. The occasionnal backfire adds a lot too. Carbs are the way to go full stop.

We will have to agree to differ - none of these arguments in favour of carbs have any technical validity (and this thread started as a technical enquiry after all, with comments about how flawed a certain model of carb was IIRC....).

It's come down to a personal preference for old vs. new, which is perfectly fine, and we are free to choose our own way. I choose optimum performance & driveability and as an aside (if I choose to map it thus), economy.

I'm not anti-carb...there is still one on the standard Montecarlo engine currently in the Corse. But if I was keeping that engine and more importantly, tuning it, it would be on 3D ignition and injection.


Here endeth my 2€ :)

[junior]

Does anybody know the angle that the montecarlo engine is leant forward? I think it is 20 degrees. How do the ports compare to the rest of the fiat family? I may have found a manifold, but the company wants to know this information. They only make fiat manifolds.

[mogul_x]

I believe it is 20 degrees. That number sounds familiar, but the engine leans backward, not forward. Can't speak with authority on port sizes, but I think they're all about the same except for the VX heads and 1982 on up fuel injected heads. Somebody with a Guy Croft book may be able to confirm or refute that.

When you get a price on the manifold, would you post it here? Even though I'm going to use an Alquatti DCNF setup on my car, I have a friend who might be interested in the IDF installation for his.

Cheers

[junior]

Hi Mogul,
I do believe its 20 degrees. I have not been successfull in locating an IDF manifold yet. Although I have been concentrating what little free time I have trying to locate DCNF's. I may however have located a source of brand new montecarlo/DCNF and Beta/DCNF manifolds, should anybody want one of these let me know. If it is specifically an IDF manifold you want, let me know and I will do some more digging.


Regards

P.S. 40 DCNF's wanted

[mogul_x]

If you've got a source for Monte DCNF manifolds, let me know. The only reason I aksed about the IDF manifold is that a friend of mine has been having a terrible time trying to find a manifold to fit the 40 DCNF's he already has to his Scorpion.

He may be considering a different setup altogether. Probably depends on whether he can find a manifold. If he decides to pursue a volumex or turbo installation instead, his DCNF carbs may end up available. I'll keep you posted.

[shaun]

Probably a stupid question but.... Why are manifolds normally made from cast alloy. Is it not possible to have an carb inlet flange, a head inlet flange and join the two with tubes - all in steel or even stainless?

[colin artus]

Cast alloy is cheap for mass production. The other materials you mention are more suited to fabrication which would be far too expensive in production terms. Injection moulded plastics are not uncommon.
Making a manifold in aluminium or stainless would not be difficult but it would probably be more expensive than finding cast manifold - unless you can do it yourself with your trusty plasma cutter in one hand and tig torch in the other.


Colin

[chris.richard]

Probably a stupid question but.... Why are manifolds normally made from cast alloy. Is it not possible to have an carb inlet flange, a head inlet flange and join the two with tubes - all in steel or even stainless?

Heat dissipation?

[junior]

Hi there everybody,

I am now to the stage where I Have bought 2 brand new 40 DCNF's. I was feeling impulsive, and maybe I should have waited to have found some good second hand ones, because they were not cheap. These are latest edition DCNF's, which should not have any problems going round corners, or so I was told. I have a rough casted manifold made up which appears to fit the montecarlo (no modifications required). I now need to know the exact angles that have to be machined on both ends of the inlet manifold. Does anybody know these? Or better still have drawings? I suppose any montecarlo inlet manifold will be the same angle as any other montecarlo inlet manifold. I will keep you all posted as to availability of the new manifolds.

Regards to all

[chris.richard]

Sounds like a question for the Lancisti forum.

[junior]

I located the manufacturer and had a rough casting made. This I had sent down to chad at the monte hospital for approval. It will fit without having to do any modifications or removals and will be low enough to accomadate the carbs. The rough casting has now been returned along with a head for final machining. I will check their progress early next week and report. I already have my carbs on the shelf and the weber rolling road impatiently waiting.

[mudhut]

Hi Paul

Was it you (with the Delta Integrale parked next to my Hawk) that I spoke with at Gaydon after the Guy Croft seminar yesterday?

[mogul_x]

Paul,

Can you give me more information regarding the casting for the new DCNF manifold? Where made, cost, etc? My friend Peter is still very interested in acquiring a manifold for his Montecarlo, and is in fact in immediate need to avoid delays getting his car back on the road.

As an aside - have you talked to Chad at Monte Hospital about the possiblity of doing a small production run? I know he was dissapointed that Alquatti could no longer provide manifolds for the DCNF installation.

regards,

[junior]

I was the one in the silver S2 spyder monte, parked next to the guy with the integrale. I sat next to the guy with the integrale in the meeting room and talked to you at the end, in the car park.
The situation with the 40 DCNF manifolds is as follows: In order to encourage the manifold manufacturing company to get out their old moulds, make the rough casting, send it down to Chad for approval etc. etc. Chad had to promise to take a minimum number of these manifolds. I agreed to take a couple, just as a little more encouragement. It is because of Chad's commitment, that these manifolds are once more available. I think it only fair, that in light of this, we support him in the excellent job he is doing and duly buy them from him. I have spoken to Chad today, he is aware of your interest and awaiting your calls. I will chase up the progress with the manufacturer tomorrow and keep you all in the picture. Sorry for the delay.
(So I will have one spare manifold available to anybody that is interested.)

[mogul_x]

Paul,

I'll inform my friend Pete immediately. Thank you!

[junior]

Hi there,
I have checked with the manifold manufacturer today, who has informed me that the project looks to be on. The moulds have to be modified slightly. Subject to Chad's order, we will have a definite answer by the end of the week. Once again I will keep you posted.

regards

[junior]

The machined manifold is now on its way back to chad for final checking and approval. Hopefully not long now!

[mogul_x]

Might be a slight delay - I think Chad is off on holiday for a couple of weeks :eek: