Group 4 dash

[tryphon]

Hello,

Just thought I might share this with you for your general Stratos culture ;)

As you might know the Group 4 cars use mechanical dash instruments as opposed to electrical ones for reliability reasons. This implies mechanical connections from all the instruments to the appropriate engine parts e.g. drawing a mercury line from the temperature gauge to the water circuit etc. A real nightmare.
Now here's what the dash looks like from behind...

[guy mayers]

I'm about to put a Group 4 dash in my car but I think I'll either be keeping the original Veglia electrical clocks or putting some VDO gauges in. I guess that finding the original mechanical ones and putting them in a replica is unlikely and would be very expensive even if they were available! In the meantime I was wondering about the finish and materials used on the original dash. It seems to be made of 4 pieces. The first is the panel that has the airvents mounted in it which I assume to be steel? Then there is panel kicking back up to the top flat (third) panel and finally the dash itself. I assume all these are aluminium or are any fiberglass? I also assume that the finishes are matt black and the top panel is covered in alcantara?
Anywhere close Tryphon?

[tryphon]

The instruments are available.
The "first" piece you mention (where the vents are) is in fact the original dash of the stradale.
There is a "second" part that you can clearly see in the picture I posted.
The "third" one holds the instruments.
On top of the instrument panel comes a "fourth" part whose purpose is to "shade" the instruments and which is not fitted in the picture.
The fagric used is not alcantara (I don't think it was available at the time) but rather the famous "mouse skin" fabric also used in the Dino 206 and 246. Still available but at an incredible price...
I think the original Group 4 cars didn't use any fabric, just plain mat black finishes and aluminium.

[catswhiskers]

Seeing as you mentioned it, what is this 'Alcantara' and where am I likely to be able to buy it from?

Cheers,
Mick :confused:

[tryphon]

There are several sources. Ferrari dealers and restorers, Omicron, a Google search on the net for "mouse hair" might reveal others.

[Sando]

Seeing as you mentioned it, what is this 'Alcantara' and where am I likely to be able to buy it from?

Cheers,
Mick :confused:

Hi Mick
The next Saturday we have with some dry weather I'll come over and show you some! There are some details in previous threads if you do a search for it. It cost me about £225 I think to have my dash and binnicle covered with it by a trimmer. Well worth it I thought.

Corse Chris did his own and looks a bit handy with a needle too, mind..... :D
cheers
Rob :cool:

PS Tryphon. Whoevers car that is, if the rest of it is in the same condition as under the dash it's a minter! :)

[catswhiskers]

Nice one Rob.
Make sure you give me a call first this time. I dont want to miss you again.

Mick

[JohnB_SPY8808053]

Hi all - just stopping by and saw this post.

If anybody is interested, I could post some pics of my Hawk replica G4 dash with VDO gauges mounted. I put a lot of time into figuring out what the proper gauge placement was. This involved collecting lots of pictures. I have a VISIO diagram of the dash face with the exact placements I finally came up with. One thing that might be of interest is that I'm pretty sure the replica dash is a little shorter than the original (about 2 cm). It also has a curved bottom edge and corners where the original looks to be more squared off.

Ciao,

John B.

[guy mayers]

I'm sure you are right John, the reason will be to satisfy SVA requirements here, no nasty sharp edges allowed anymore!
Guy

[JohnB_SPY8808053]

OK - It looks like don't have any pics of the VDO gauges in the Hawk G4 dash yet. I'll take some tomorrow though. Here are some pics of the gauges mounted in a mock up of the dash I made to see how the positioning looked. I included 2 pictures of real G4 cars from similar angles for comparison.

John B.

[David May]

Has anyone yet seen two Gp4 cars with the same instruments and layout? Looks to me like they were thrown together with whatever they had in the workshop that day.

[JohnB_SPY8808053]

We have to remember two things in this respect. First, the works G4 cars were hand built. Second, many of the G4 cars we see today are converted stradales. This will no doubt create some variation in the cars. That said, the gauges on the real G4 cars I have photos of are all remarkably similar. When looking for pictures of the real G4 dash, remember that NONE of the stradale gauges were used on the G4 cars. Any car with downward pointing needles on the gauges is probably a conversion that couldn't find or afford the G4 gauges so they kept the stradale gauges. The real cars always use that big Veglia tach and the double temp gauge. These are very rare items and again - any car without them should be suspect. I have pictures of at least one car where they used all the correct gauges but the wrong fuse block (and mounted incorrectly with a clear cover plate). The correct fuse block is the 16 fuse unit - I believe it is the same one that the some Montecarlos used (that's what I have anyway). I have seen real cars where the tabs on the fuse block assembly were bolted through the face of the dash so that the fuses sat at an angle with the bottom farther out from the dash face. I think the correct mounting is to bolt the tabs to two bent metal strips connected to the bottom of the dash so there are no bolts showing on the dash face. I have several pictures with different warning light covers. I think the correct one is the red rectangular one like I am using (I can't seem to remember what car it comes from though). I actually have a list of what all the switches do here somewhere - I'll see if I can find it. You can make good recreations of the original dash lables using one of the office lable makers. I have pictures of unused factory label sheets if anybody needs them.

Now as for those differences. The most common ones seem to be with the gauges on the far left side of the dash. If memory serves, the main gauges from right to left should go Fuel Level, Amps (side by side high) then speedmeter (250 kph low), Oil & Water Temp (dual gauge at middle), Tach (big 10k rpm middle), Oil Pressure (middle)... and then the last one or two gauges. These seem to vary quite a lot. There is always either one or two gauges side by side with the rightmost one either directly under the Oil Pressure gauge or offset slightly to the left. To be honest, I'm not 100% sure what these gauges are supposed to be. My best guess would be Fuel Pressure for one gauge and maybe Fuel Pressure & Volts or Fuel Pressure & Boost Pressure for two.

If you are planning to use VDO, I'd reccomend the basic Extreme Tach, Oil Pressure & Water Temp from the Cockpit Pro series and everything else from the Cockpit series. This is not a perfect solution because the Cockpit series gauges are a little smaller than the Cockpit Pro gauges. On the real G4 dash, it looks like all the gauges except for the Tach were the same size. The speedometer was actually the hardest part to get right. I ended up using a VDO 'Biker Speedo' wich is almost exactly the same size as the Cockpit Pro gauges. I plan to have the face repainted for the tach at a later date.

It's worth mentioning that because the Hawk G4 dash is shorter, you will have to offset the leftmost gauge(s) to the left (instead of centering them under the oil pressure gauge). This lets you raise them up a bit - just enough to clear the bottom of the dash. You'll see this in the attached picture of my Hawk G4 dash. Look at how little room there is between these gauges and the bottom of the dash. It looks a little worse than it really is in the pictures because the dash assembly is heavy enough to sink a little into the couch where I took the picures. Because of the shorter face, all of the switches on the right side had to be adjusted up as well. I'll post a picture with the measurements I came up with (both the original and adjusted numbers) as soon as I can get up to the office to do get the file.

Hope someone finds something useful in this.

John B.

[JohnB_SPY8808053]

Here are some more G4 Dash Pics for you to look at. This first set is from 2 different works Alitalia cars. Notice that the have a custom warning light and are using a 2nd E-brake handle for a turning brake under the dash in the first pic.

John B.

[JohnB_SPY8808053]

Here are some pics of Sirocco's restored G4 car. I think the dash is a conversion but it's really well done. The only things I notice are that the warning light is custom and the fuse block is bolted to the outside face of the dash.

John B.

[JohnB_SPY8808053]

Here are some pics of the Chequered Flag and Olio Fiat cars. Both are very nice. Interestingly, the chequered flag car is using the proper G4 tach but all the other gauges are from the stradale.

John B.

[JohnB_SPY8808053]

Here are some miscelaneous G4 dash pics. I can't remember anything about the car in first shot but the gauges are not right. The rest of these pics show 2 different blue cars. Both cars use the stradale gauges but the first one either has the wrong tach or some kind of flange mounted around the tach.

John B.

[JohnB_SPY8808053]

Almost done! These are pics of a red car with a really nice G4 dash. It's either a real G4 set-up or a brilliant conversion job. The only unusual thing I see is that there is an extra pull-switch just above the heater control.

John B.

[tryphon]

This Olio Fiat car belongs to Mr. Bosch, I've seen it in the flesh in Biella (IT) today, looks perfect.
Some other interesting encounters today:
The Alitalia 1975 Safari car (Munari, 24V), did at least 60Km in it.
A Chardonnet car, did not run.
The first prototype (the only one in existance) with aluminium body currently awaiting restoration.
The Silhouette car, ex-Matsuda, also the only one left in existance as the Facceti car burned up, awaiting restoration.
Another Group 4 car, Chardonnet, did not have a chance to a first hand experience but it run the whole morning.
Many more Gr.4 cars also awaiting restoration.
A great day...

[JohnB_SPY8808053]

Last Ones!!! These are pics of a yellow car with a G4 dash conversion. It's uses some stradale gauges, has the fuse box mounted to the face of the dash and has some small indicator lights for the switches.

John B.

[JohnB_SPY8808053]

Yeah - there are some AWSOME restorations out there. I love what they've done with that Olio Fiat car and the Marlboro liveried cars. There's also a beautiful car in the old Alitalia livery in Japan. All of the cars I'm referring to here are very nice originals. I'm certainly not trying to be critical of them - just point out differences in the dash.

John B.

PS - Here's that decal sheet if anyone's interested.

[tryphon]

Here are some pics of Sirocco's restored G4 car. I think the dash is a conversion but it's really well done. The only things I notice are that the warning light is custom and the fuse block is bolted to the outside face of the dash.

John B.

This is not Sirocco's car. It is a Stradale privately converted to Gr.4 by non-professionals...was Swiss, currently resides in the south of France.

[JohnB_SPY8808053]

Thanks! I'll update the info in my files for that one. I download lots of pics and sometimes they get mixed up in the shuffle.

John B.

[JohnB_SPY8808053]

Hey Tryphon,

It sounds like you're having great fun - take me some pictures! Would love to have one that showed the labels for the fuses and relays clearly.

John B.

[chris.richard]

This Olio Fiat car belongs to Mr. Bosch, I've seen it in the flesh in Biella (IT) today, looks perfect.
Some other interesting encounters today:
The Alitalia 1975 Safari car (Munari, 24V), did at least 60Km in it.
A Chardonnet car, did not run.
The first prototype (the only one in existance) with aluminium body currently awaiting restoration.
The Silhouette car, ex-Matsuda, also the only one left in existance as the Facceti car burned up, awaiting restoration.
Another Group 4 car, Chardonnet, did not have a chance to a first hand experience but it run the whole morning.
Many more Gr.4 cars also awaiting restoration.
A great day...

What was the occasion or event, Tryphon, it sounds amazing! :cool:

[tryphon]

We were trying out a freshly restored Chardonnet car at the private FIAT circuit in Balocco. This private domain holds 3 tracks, total length around 50Km, and is used by the FIAT group to test prototypes for Ferrari, Maserati, FIAT, Alfa and Lancia. FIAT were presenting the new 147 to the press and we, independently of that event, had a 27Km track for our own the whole morning. As this track is quite "secret" tight security measures were present at all times...
Prior to reaching the track I was at Mr. Avandero's to snoop in his amazing collection including 3 ex-works Stratos, a Chardonnet, a Stradale, an 8V Vignale the unique Fulvia barchetta and too many other interesting cars to list.
The feeling of sitting in Munari's seat cannot be described in words. Other great moment was contemplating the first prototype and being able to sit in it and get a glimpse of what the Stratos should have been.
No special occasion, just a great day...with some great people among which 2 of the most renouned Stratos collectors. I had a lengthy talk with Ernst Hrabalek, we discussed for more than 2 hours together of everything Stratos, he's a great person and as true a passionate collector as it gets.

[JohnB_SPY8808053]

Wow! You're a fortunate man I'd say.

John B.