New here- Kit differences and your opinions.

[DiezelMonster]

Hello


I'm new here, I live in canada and want to build a Stratos kit.
I've so far found that the Hawk and the Hennessy racing one are good options.

I've also spotted a few kits up for grabs from members here.

I'd like to know what the best kit for the value is?, I'd like to know if there are any major differences that make each kit better than the other, basically I'd like to know the pro and cons of each kit and what luck any of you have had.

I'm primarily going to use the car as a road going vehicle, but race it on weekends hopefully wherever I can, so I'd like the adjustability there.

I'd also like to know if there are any kits in canada, or canadian members, or at least the american members!

So pleas share any advice with a newbie you can, I'd greatly appreciate it!


Chris Steed

[SUSIT]

Welcome to the forum chris, I own the poor mans kit an Allora the fore runner to the corse. All the information you are looking for is in the forum already. The search facility is useful here. They common theme is they all take many hours to build and are not just a bolt together job. Be prepared for many hours in your garage. Also they are not cheap to build unless you can pick up some one else's unfinished kit. budget for anything between £15000 - £25000 depending on spec. good luck

[Marmott]

Good afternoon Chris,
coincidentally with your question Im coming to Canada in 2 weeks for a holiday, where are you.
I am on my second replica, A litton Corse.
I have driven many , Hawk/Transformers , and 1 Allora
Both Littons were built by me, this one is 2 years old , the first was put on the road in 1989.
Although useable for the road I use mine for rallying in UK, France and Belgium, it is modified accordingly.
You can e mail me direct on gary.lomass@virgin.net, or call me over the weekend on 0044 1460 61916
cheers
Gary

[Speedmade]

Chris,

I'm not sure where you are in Canada, but you are welcome to come see my Corse I kit when it arrives. It should be here before the end of the year.
I am located in Minneapolis, Minnesota.
I don't think there are currently any Corse's in North America. There is supposedly a green Hawk in the Detroit area and Scott McGill is in Pennsylvania with his Hawk. Maybe one of those would be closer to you.
Feel free to call me if you like. 612-920-0197

Reed Herman

[mogul_x]

Chris,

Most of the information you are looking for has been discussed in previous threads, but there are so many old threads now that it could take a while to find it. I'll try to sum up:

Basically, the Hawk and Corse are very similar in outward appearance, build compexity, and quality. Between the two of them, The Hawk probably has slightly better quality moldings for the body. Most of the Hawk's body panel molds were taken from a genuine Stratos, and many of the parts are interchangeable with the real thing.

The real differences between the two are under the skin. The Hawk is a more "authentic" replica, in that it bears a very close resemblance to the Stratos inside and out. The shape of the chassis is quite similar, and the suspension geometry is nearly identical. The interior of a Hawk is also much closer to the genuine article than is the Corse, although a lot of that is dependant on the builder's attention to detail.

The Corse, while not quite as accurate a replica, has the advantage of more modern suspension design. The Hawk uses a lot of 30 year old Italian donor parts, whereas the Corse "I" has a more modern double wishbone setup using late model donor parts. The "I" also has a more triangulated chassis structure, which lends itself well to competition use. The Corse "S" model has a chassis that is somewhere between the Hawk and Corse "I", and uses many of the same donor pieces as the Hawk. As far as I know, both cars use components that can't be found on our side of the Atlantic, so you'll need to purchase some of the suspension pieces overseas no matter which car you choose.

As far as cost goes, I think the prices on the Corse kit are a bit lower than those on the Hawk. You'd need to contact both manufacturers for current prices, if you are consideing a new kit. If you're looking at a secondhand kit, I think the Hawk still tends to be a bit more expensive. Finished costs will be comparable either way, since the engines and assorted running gear are the same between the two.

Since you're looking at using your car primarily as a road car, with occasional race weekends, either will probably suit your needs. Both cars have been used competitively with good results. If you were building a pure competition car, I might give the Corse the advantage, although test results have shown the performance of the two structures to be approximately the same. Likewise, both cars can be fitted with adjustable shocks and struts, so you can set up both cars for changing race conditions.

You might want to check into roll cage requirements for any racing series you're interested in contesting before you buy. I know that the Hawk meets UK competion regulations, but not US regulations. It can be custom ordered with the correct size roll cage, but the "stock" cage won't pass muster. If the Corse is already in compliance, that might help you choose.

Hope this helps somewhat. If there's anything else I can tell you, feel free to e-mail me, or give me a call at 610-705-0594.

[DiezelMonster]

Hello guys!

Thanks for the nice welcome! :)

And thanks for the replies! they contain VERY valuable info, and I've used the search function to see old threads and of course there was good info there too.

I live in Hamilton, Ontario, which is 45 minutes south of toronto, so I'm not far away from detroit, or new york.
I'd be willing to go anywhere to view one before I buy.

To be honest, for my first "kit car" I'd like to purchase one secondhand. I'm not able to purchase a full kit at the present time. Going over my use for this car, I'd like to stress that I've changed my mind and would like to use the car for about 50% road use and 50% race. so I'd like the full adjustability of a race chassis.

I've been fabricating things for my whole life, so I don't see an issue there having to make parts for a partially completed chassis. As for the body work, Id like it to be as close to the real deal as possible, unfortunatly I don't think I can just buy the body work of a Hawk kit.

Marmott where abouts are you traveling too in canada?
Once again I will stress, I am a working man in Canada and I am not rich at all, nor do I think I need a brand new kit since I couldn't afford one with the way the canadian dollar is VS the pound
anyhow
if I could find something useful it would be good to have as a winter project to build up.

If any of you guys know where a secondhand kit is for sale, or even just a hawk body preferably group 4 that would be great!


Thanks

Chris

[Speedmade]

Chris,

Look in the "For Sale" forum back a few posts. Chris Jarvis in the UK had a Hawk chassis with a main body tub, 1 door, and the Grp 4 tail unit.
The chassis had been modified and the original suspension mounts had been cut off.
Last I knew he still had it for sale for 1600 sterling. And was also offering it with a Stradale tail for under 1000 sterling.
E-mail me if you like and I will forward pictures he sent me of the chassis/body.

Reed H speedmade@yahoo.com

[mogul_x]

Chris,

Steve Stahn is the Detroit area owner of that green Hawk Stradale. I don't have any contact info for him, but I'll see if I can track him down. I have another friend in the area who knows him. I live near Philadelphia, so if you're even in the area, I'd be happy to show you my kit.

Something to consider with a secondhand kit - almost all of the UK cars are right hand drive. Hawk chassis are asymmetrical, with the driver sitting closer to the car's centerline than the passenger, as in the genuine article. So if you intend to convert the car to left hand drive for Canadian roads, you will be in for a difficult time with a Hawk. Corse chassis are symmetrical, and much easier to convert from right to left hand drive.

With regards to competition - again, both Hawk and Corse chassis are suitably adjustable for circuit use. Both have rose joints (spherical rod ends) fixing the suspension arms, and both can be had with fully adjustable dampers. The Corse "I" suspension, with double wishbones at all four corners, may have an advantage over the Hawk's strut rear suspension. A Corse "S" suspension is, for all intents, the same as the Hawk, with a stut based rear. For rallying, the Corse has an additional advantage with regards to the front suspension. The upper mounts for the front shock are a little more robust than the Hawk's, and are less likely to bend in a severe jounce.

As far as I know, there is at least one Corse running around out there with Hawk bodywork on it. It's not a direct fit, but it can be made to work. I think it was the result of someone buying an incomplete Corse kit, and not being able to get a body from the manufacturer. Now that Napier is producing Corse cars again, that probably won't be an issue.

And just to warn you - unless you find an unfinished kit that is nearly complete, building one of these cars is much bigger than an "over winter" project. They are very labor intensive to build, so it'll probably take a couple of years at least if you are working part time. I've heard estimates in the 1000 hour range for assembly.

[Speedmade]

For clarification purposes.
Napiersport is currently only offering the Corse I and the Evolution.
They have decided not to offer the "S" since it uses hard to find suspension components.

[mogul_x]

Reed,

I only mentioned the Corse "S" model because Chris indicated he is in the market for a secondhand car. It's possible he could end up with a copy of the discontinued model.

[x19er]

Chris,

I live in the Detroit area and know Steve Stahn pretty well. If you can make it down for the Italian Happening Sunday September 5th the odds are quite good that he will be showing the car - and guess what? he's actually Canadian, although he lives in the US now. I will be talking to him this weekend and will find out if he is showing the car.

http://italianh.ehost.com/

John

[x19er]

I just spoke with Steve, he will be showing his car at the Italian Happening. If you can make it, it's worth the trip. There's alot of good stuff there!

John

[DiezelMonster]

Thanks for all the replies guys!

I'd love to go out to detroit, but I don't think I can make it that weekend! which is a real drag!

if only it was a week later when my vacation starts! blast!


I'm so eager and ready to find something!
I just want to make sure that I can replicate the car as close as possible but with all the functionality of a race car!

some long months ahead!


Chris

[x19er]

Chris,

Unfortunately, to get a second hand kit you will most assuredly have to get one from the UK. There are very few replicas in North America. In the last 10 years I have seen one unfinished kit in Texas ($18,000). The finished replicas I have seen have all been $25K or more. I looking at getting a used kit from the UK as well but the strength of the dollar stinks right now - especially with the added $3000 or so for shipping. It looks like you can buy the Corse body panels separate from the chassis so you may want to take that route if you are going to build your own chassis. Let me know how it goes - I am in the same boat as you.

John

[John]

Just for the interest of you guy's across the pond, I think that $3000 is a little steep for carriage of a kit to the States or Canada.
I have been quoted a lot less than this and I can also arrange suitable crating for kits and or complete cars less engine and box ( to be sent seperately- as I think you require).
If anybody needs further info then please send me a PM or email.
This is a door to door service by the way.

[John]

Oh! I should have added too that Lionel Gooch is in active talks at the moment to try to place a Corse race car of one variety or another ( see his website) in the States, as support for the great amount of interest from over there. But don't hold your breath, these things will no doubt take a lot of time.
When I can tell you more you will be the first to know. Watch this space!

[DiezelMonster]

Well I've decided that I should look stricly for a second hand kit.

I am talking to Chris Jarvis about what he has for sale and it sounds good, but am still unsure since all the suspension mounting has been removed and without appropriate blueprints I don't think I'd have the skill or the time to work on that.

I'm determined to get this done though, as determined as one can be when trying to accomplish thier dream!

Question for the corse owners, how accurate is the body, and fit of the various panels VS what you know about the hawk.
and what is the crafstmanship like on the body work?

The idea of an almost direct replica of the car is something I like, but it's not that big a deal to me.
I do like however how closely the hawk chassis resembles the original.

Was the original chassis constructed out of similar steel? or was aluminum used?

Another qustion about the hawk, is the rally style light pod removable? or is it affixed for good?

The coffin wheels that hawk offers are what I want as well, but what are they manufactured out of? are they durable enough for racing?
or are they not?
I've searched for that info but couldn't find it.

also, I'm not sure about here, but what steps did you take to register your car and what is the car under in terms of insurance? this is mostly for the american folks here.


I'd be willing to, once I got to know the various "closer" american chaps to my vicinity, setup some sort of trading post, for various parts and what not?
does that sound like a good idea? I'm seriously trying to do this the most economical way possible since getting things imported from the UK is such a costly thing right now.

Just ideas!

I know I'm crazy and am willing to spend 30K I just don't have it all at once!




Chris

[Speedmade]

$3000 is a little high for the shipping on such a small car.
The quotes that Lionel is getting me should see my Corse landed at my home city for under $2000 including brokerage fees and duties.
I only paid $2800 total to get my Falcon delivered from Australia. And that thing took up half a container and weighs 3500 lbs.

Reed H

[gt40fran]

I have moved quite a few cars from the U.K to the USA .
The price for shipping depends on whether the car is in roll on roll off condition or coming in a container.
A 20 foot container from Southhampton or Wisbech to New York is around
$2000-$2500, a 40 or 45ft container is a little more at closer to $3000.
There is then transfer fees from the dock to the truck and the cost of trucking the container to your personal destination...around $1000 from NY to Detroit.
On top of these monies is the costs incurred if there are any problems.
My last container was held up in customs and it cost me an extra $1500 in costs for moving the container and then having to have it opened and inspected and then moved back to storage.
The New York longshoremen certainly know how to charge.

Make sure that anything vehicle wise is either listed as a race car or spares.
NEVER list the car as a kit car.Also any vehicle that is listed pre 1974 is also exempt from EPA and DOT inspections....

I am working with Derek White to get one or two of his Stratos replicas from NZ to the states.....Anyone interested in talking about checking these out drop me a line on GT40FRAN@YAHOO.COM

[mogul_x]

Was the original chassis constructed out of similar steel? or was aluminum used?

The original cars used a stamped steel monocoque. The entire center section of the car was steel. Since both the Hawk and the Corse use a spaceframe, the roof and side panels have been replicated in fiberglass. Many of the inner panels (like the bulhead, floor, and front wheel inner panels) are aluminum alloy on the replicas. This may be why the replicas are purported to be a little lighter than the genuine cars.

Another qustion about the hawk, is the rally style light pod removable? or is it affixed for good?

It's removable, but it's not a seamless changeover. It is usually bolted in place, and needs a fairly large hole in the bodywork to allow for the power cables. Some owners have hidden the cable routing hole under the spot where the nosebadge would go, but you'll need to come up with something clever to disguise the mounting bolt holes.

The coffin wheels that hawk offers are what I want as well, but what are they manufactured out of? are they durable enough for racing?

They're aluminum alloy, but I don't know which alloy off the top of my head. They're manufactured by Compomotive in the UK - they might be able to answer that sort of question.

I'm not sure about here, but what steps did you take to register your car and what is the car under in terms of insurance?

Registration will probably depend on the laws for your area. Here in the 'States, it falls under state Department of Motor Vehicles jurisdiction. As a result, there are at least 50 different ways of going about it. Some states have a special category for kit and replicars. Others allow you to register it as the donor vehicle (determined by the engine). Insurance will probably need to come from a company specializing in collector cars. Many of the big carriers (here in the USA, at least) won't cover a kit car.

[SUSIT]

I know I'm crazy and am willing to spend 30K I just don't have it all at once!




Chris[/QUOTE]

Hi Chris.
Like you I am your average working man earning an average wage so to find $30000 all at once would be impossible for me. However I believe all things come to he or She who waits. My Allora came for sale when I had decided there was no way I could afford a Stratos replica. I paid £7000 for a fully built running car with a years MOT and 6 months road tax. It was fitted with a 1800cc lancia beta engine. Not the fastest thing on four wheels but FUN big time. It was then damaged when an 18 year old looney T bonned me big style. but as they say all clouds have a silver linning and following a battle with the insurance company I got a good settlement, enough to get the body repaired with help from forum members who donated the sections of body work I required and upgrade the car to rally spec. I had already bought a 12 valve Alfa engine but a nice modified unit came on the market at just the right time and now sits in the garage waiting for its new home. I have had to have the rollcage replace to meet UK racing regs ( only required on the Allora not Hawk or Corse ) There are many parts needed to complete the upgrade and ebay has been a great source of bits and saved me a lot of money. So it can be done on a limited budget it just takes time and patience plus a lot of searching for the bits at the right price.
Good luck with your dream.

Regards
Stephen

[colin artus]

The replica wheels will be LM25 which is a casting grade and a British Standard designation - I think its equivalent to HE30 which is 6082 in US terminology.

Colin

[Chris J]

[quote]
"I am talking to Chris Jarvis about what he has for sale and it sounds good, but am still unsure since all the suspension mounting has been removed and without appropriate blueprints I don't think I'd have the skill or the time to work on that."

Chris

All the chassis pick up points ARE STILL THERE on the Transformer chassis that I've got for sale. It's just some parts of the chassis especially around where the rear of the top front wishbone would normally locate that is missing.

All the front tie rod, lower front arms, rear tie rod, rear 'A' arm pick up and strut top mountings are intact. The steering rack mounting brackets have been cut off though.

[x19er]

Another to keep in mind if buying a used replica is that the Hawk chassis ( I don't know about the others ) is asymmetric about the longitudinal axis with regards to left hand vs. right hand drive. It is not as easy as moving everything from one side to the other. The driver's side is a little wider than the passenger side.

John

[David May]

As far as I know, the CAE Corse I chassis is completely symmetrical and straightforward to convert.