building a Stratos HF

[dallas]

Well, actually a 1/12 Stratos HF...and I need a few detail pics for accuracy. I'm building the Doyusha Monte Carlo version (Alitalia markings, Lancia engine). This is a rare OOP kit from the '70s, and it has a few innacuracies and vague parts descriptions that I need to correct.

I have searched through all the pics on this site and others but haven't found some of the Lancia engine pics I need. The kit instructions (which are almost entirely in Japanese) show a small cylindrical tank attached to the front of the engine. Their pics make it appear to be attached from a small "stub" on its side directly to the end of the outboard cam on the right bank. The hoses seem to be running from the tank to the oil filter base and back into the tank...then two more that appear to run to the radiator. The part is labeled "water pump".

I have found one pic of a set of three of an engine where the position of the tank is slightly different, but the hose connections are taped off so I can't tell where they go. This looks much more like an expansion tank or reservoir than a pump, but I'm not that familiar with this Lancia engine.

So, I need a few good pics of the front of this engine, or a line drawing from a manual, or anything that can tell me exactly what this cylinder is, where it attaches properly to the engine, and where the hoses really go.

Any info on this part, or any other good engine/drive pics would be appreciated.

dallas

[tryphon]

This must be the engine oil catch tank you are talking about. It was mounted on Stradale cars, not Group 4 ones. It is the same as the one fitted to the Ferrari Dino 246.
You may see pictures of it here:
http://www.rallycars.com/Cars/Lancia/Stratos2.html
and
http://www.rallycars.com/Cars/Lancia/Stratos3.html

It's made of iron and rusts badly. I had mine copied in aluminium, an excellent job incidently, and you can't make the difference from the original item.

[dallas]

Thanks for the reply Tryphon. I have been using that set of pics as a reference, but couldn't see the tank in there anywhere. The one pic of the front of the engine, right cyl. bank, has two studs sticking out (with nuts on them). Logically, this looks like the mounting place for the tank, but I don't know.

The Japanese makers of the models were very good at re-creating fine details, but they often made mistakes on engine parts. Sometimes they used one source for their tech drawings, and that one example may not have been normal use, or they just couldn't see an attachment so they guessed and "faked" it.

Regarding this tank: am I right to assume it has no mechanical functions inside that would need to be driven by a gear hookup? And, the two large hoses that extend forward must go to either an oil cooler, or to a larger oil tank? If there is no outside oil reservoir, then does this engine use its own lower pan area for oil??

[chris.richard]

This is the best I can come up with, Dallas. Is it the tank at the top left?

[chris.richard]

Same bit on Tryphon's car

[tryphon]

Oh you must be talking about the water to oil heat exchanger. This is located on the right part of the engine at almost half-height.

It's function is similar to an air-based oil cooler, only more efficient. Most group 4 cars used it too. It's a cylindrical device with one hose coming into one base and another one going out the opposite side. This is the oil way. Two other hoses are connected to its side and run parallel to each other. This is the water way.

It's main advantages are:
- As I said before, increased efficiency similar to a water to air turbo intercooler as compared to an air to air one
- It's compactness
- It's ability to have the oil temperature rise rapidly, when cold starting the engine, as compared to an air-oil cooler

I hope this helps.

[tryphon]

Correction, I posted too soon. What you see on the picture you posted is indeed the engine oil breather, or catch, tank.
It's function is to collect engine vapours from the block and head, condensate them and then either redirect them to the air filter as per normal Stradale cars or to a second tank.

It is not recommended to redirect oil to the air filter as it will enter the combustion chamber and increase the chance of detonation.

In my car I just let the oil catched by the tank leak to the ground. Not very ecological but then again not a very ecological car averaging 11mpg if not pushed...

[dallas]

Chris;

Thanks, but that's not the tank I'm looking for.


Tryphon;

You got it!!! OK...I see why there are both water and oil lines connected to it. Now...would it mount directly to the end of the outer cam with some kind of gear drive to actually pump the water/oil through it?

[tryphon]

OK now we're getting somewhere. The oil-water heat exchanger uses the nornal oil and water ways pressure to function. No additional gear or pump is needed.

[tryphon]

Originally posted by chris.richard
Same bit on Tryphon's car

Chris the car has changed alot since these pictures were taken. It is now approaching it's completion, as long as such a thing exists, being converted to complete Group 4 spec.
After the current stage of transformation/upgrade it will have complete Group 4 specs short of:

- Gearbox (normal Stradale with uprated synchros)
- Brakes (early 2 pot Group 4 calipers in front, uprated pads)
- Dashboard (normal Stradale)

Otherwise the rest of the car has been brought to full Group4 spec...

P.S.

Just noticed this is my 200th post, happy birthday!!!

[dallas]

That would explain the two sets of hoses (though I am now in doubt of their true connection points and routing). The Doyusha engineers are showing the mounting point for this tank as right onto the cam cover end (similar to where the distributor woould mount). I think that is just a mistake because I can't imagine using that point on a real engine to mount anything that might affect the cam cover or cam/bearings.

I am looking at a pic that I think I found on this site, but because I changed its name for my files I can't send you the identifying name from the site. I tried attaching it, but it was rejected as too large. It's only 640 X 480 so I can't see why.

I'll try again, as it shows the tank clearly...but not its mounting points.

Nope...won't take it.

[SUSIT]

Hi Dallas you must be real fanatic about attention to detail, interesting thread. Anyway reduce your picture to 500 X 480 or less if you wish and it will load. 500 x 500 if iremember is the upper limit for the forum. You can post larger in the photo gallery.
Good luck with your build.

Stephen

[dallas]

Thanks, Stephen. I'll see if I can reduce the pic.

Yeah, I'm a bit obsessive about accuracy in the models I build. This one is supposed to be "out of the box", which means I can't use any aftermarket photoetch or hard parts. That makes it more critical that the parts are placed and "finished" correctly for realism. When I'm through, this Stratos will look like it just came off the rally course with all the grime, mud, oil, and typical afflictions that come with a long race.

I already had to rebuild the "A" arm mounts on the front suspension because they didn't fit properly, but this little tank stumped me. Like I said, the Japanese produce some of the best models in the world (especially in the larger scales), but when they guess at the application of a part, or use one particular example of a vehicle to represent all similar models of that era, it makes for a lot of extra work.

Up until recently the Stratos was not easy to find good reference material on. There are lots of pics and posters of these flying though the air or slogging through mud, but not very many of the details. I'm having the same problem with a 1/8 scale Porsche Carrera RSR turbo 935. This kit is even more rare, and there are less parts available for 1/8 scale. Entex made this kit in the '70s and for some reason they chose a car with a horizontal fan (later version) but failed to include the shroud or proper bracket and frame for the fan drive and alternator. Scratch building the fan pulley housing has been a nightmare.

Anyway, I'll see what I can do to this pic.

[Stratos]

As Stephen mebtioned, the maximum WIDTH of a picture attached to a forum message is 500 pixels. This is ensure better formatting of the thread display.

In the photo gallery, there is no limit - but please do not post anything TOO large as it then icrease the bandwidth of the site, and makes for long download times.

[dallas]

OK. The cylinder is on the very right front of the engine, about midway up (as Tryphon suggested). This one has obviously been recently painted black, and the hose connections are taped off.

Whadya think?

[tryphon]

That's it, its the oil-water heat exchanger. As I said all Stradale cars had it and 99% of the Group 4 cars as well.

[guy mayers]

Originally posted by tryphon


After the current stage of transformation/upgrade it will have complete Group 4 specs short of:

- Gearbox (normal Stradale with uprated synchros)
- Brakes (early 2 pot Group 4 calipers in front, uprated pads)
- Dashboard (normal Stradale)

Otherwise the rest of the car has been brought to full Group4 spec...



Tryphon, were you aware that Gerry does a fibreglass copy of the Gp 4 dash? All you'd need then is the correct instruments! And if you find a spare set could you let me know???
Guy

[tryphon]

I'm not sure I'll convert the dash right now but finding the dashboard is not the problem, it's the instruments but you know that already.

My personal view is that as long as I can use/find original parts or exact replicas, taking into consideration price and practicality, I go for those. I have also prioritized the fields I'm intervening with. So the engine is done, suspension close to completion, body work the same, etc.

The dash is my last priority especially considering the cost of the instruments. I'd rather spend that money elsewhere at this stage.

[dallas]

Thanks so much to Tryphon and the rest of you for your help. I'll post some pics as I make progress for your input and critique.

[chris.richard]

Dallas, is this a profession or a hobby?

[dallas]

It's just a hobby, Chris.

I did a lot of building when I was a kid...started in the 50's with military, space, ships, planes, and a Bekin's Moving van. When I hit 12-13 my interest turned to mostly cars. I built my first show winner for a Revell regional contest in northern California in 1964, but gave it all up for awhile when Uncle Sam called in '68. I had an interesting tour in the Azores from 1970-74, and I started up again (built a large U.S.S. Constitution by kerosene lamp light because our power was off much of the time...and yes, I still have it on display in my living room).

I again gave the building up when I was transferred a few more times, and then started again in 1987 when I found a Monogram 1/8 scale '65 Corvette that I wanted to build to match the 1:1 car I had built in my garage. From then I haven't been able to put them away, but my time spent on them is sporadic.

I did build a few for other people, but I'm too particular and found that people get impatient if a deadline is missed. I built a Pocher Mercedes 500K for the Blackhawk Museum, and then did the paint, interior, and engine detailing of 5 Pocher Porsche 993's for some customers here and overseas. That was the end of building for others for me. The money was pretty good, but when I ran into problems with mfgr. problems in the Porsches it became just too much trouble. They all loved their cars, but I got to hating the last couple I did.

So anyway....I just do my own now. I have at least 12 in different build stages right now, but I challenged myself to do this Stratos for a local (regional) contest with an Italian theme. As usual, I got bogged down in details and missed the contest, but I have wanted to build this car for a long time. I also have the Pirelli version sitting in the box.

If the models were all I was doing it wouldn't be a problem, but besides re-landscaping the entire yard I have a '91 ZR-1 that I tore down months ago for a P&P, injector change, water pump R&R, and a few other things....and it's sitting collecting dust and begging me to get her back on the road. Crap, I wasn't this busy when I was working. ;)

[guy mayers]

Been reading this thread with some interest! I started the Monte Carlo version a few years ago but progress is almost as slow as it was with my "1:1 scale model"! Since I'm in the process of painting mine in Pirelli colours I've got that model as well as a guide. Guess I'll have to get the Safari version as well to complete the set - but it may a few years until any get completed!
Are you aware that there is a Stratos up for sale in the collection in the Imperial Palace which can' t be too far away from you? It's a stradale but may provide some useful pointers for details. Well, it was there last time I was in Vegas, Christmas before last so it's got to be worth checking it out!
Guy

[dallas]

Thanks for the heads up, Guy.

I was supposed to be at the I.P. on Saturday, but ended up not going. I'm definitely going down there asap, though, to see if the Stratos is still there. I thought I knew all the cars they had on the floor, but in the last few years (since Ralph Englestadt died) they have been selling off cars from the front and the back. Our local model car club used to meet in the Deusenberg Room on Wednesday evenings. They used to have the most incredible 500K roadster I've ever seen. The guy who was in charge of overseeing the collection (Richie Clyne) has big interests in the las Vegas Motor Speedway, so I think the museum is just a bother for him. I'd love that job!

I had opportunity to pick up the Safari Stratos a couple of times, but was intent on getting a Pirelli so I passed. I had to get the Pirelli from an Ebayer in Japan, but I did pretty good on the price...something around $150 with the shipping. I love the Doyusha and Otaki kits, but this one has been a bit of a pain. They attached the parts to the sprues as thought they were expecting it to be used like a football. Every part I have cut off has needed careful sanding/trimming and recoating to get rid of the marks. Fortunately, since I am weathering the car (including all the engine/drive and suspension parts), the blemishes are easily erased and blended with the shadings. The downside is all the extra time involved.

I'll let you know what I find out.

[tryphon]

There are a lot of differences between the Stradale and Group 4 cars so if you want precision in your model the Stradale won't be much help.

I'll try to guide you through the most obvious ones, that can't be easily spotted in pictures, by area:

In the engine bay:

- The cylindrical engine oil catch tank on the left side is replaced by a square glassfiber one in the center, just behind the back of the cockpit

- The alternator is relocated from the bottom right side of the engine to the top left in 2 valve cars or top right in 4 valve cars and is driver by a camshaft monted pulley

- The fuel pumps are relocated to the upper left side of the engine bay rather than the lower left side

- There are 2 electronic ignition units rather than the one located on the lower left at the rear of the engine bay. The Group 4 cars have 2 iginition coils, usually mounted on the middel upper rear section of the chassis. Only 1 coil and 1 ignition unit is connected at a time, the other is just there for backup

In the suspension:

- The front lower reaction arms are is replaced by a rose-jointed ones. The connection to the track control arm remains the same but the connection to the chassis is done through a U-shaped part that holds the rose-joint

- Both front and rear swaybars are replaced by similar looking items with the difference that Group 4 cars no longer use the 3 adjustment holes so their swaybars are not pierced. Adjustment is provided through a sliding part connected to the lower suspension through rose-joints

- The front swaybar connection to the lower track control arm is relocated to the center of the latter rather than to its side

- Both front and rear brakes use monoblock 4 pot calipers

Those are the most obvious "hidden" differences I can think of right now.

[dallas]

Thanks, Tryphon.

I noticed the relocation of the alternator right away, but the other things are important.

I was under the impression that the '76 Monte Carlo winner (#1 Munari & Maiga) was a Stradale car, but maybe I have it backwards. The model is presented with a Lancia engine and (most likely) a Dino transmission, but what I am reading indicates that it should have a Dino engine. Doyusha also shows the cam covers orange, but they are hideous unless I really dirty them up. I haven't checked the placement of the other items yet.

I also read that there were at least 40 versions of this car running, or able to be run, at the same time. Who knows what version the Doyusha engineers happened to pick for this model. In fact, I just checked my Pirelli version and the engine is shown as exactly the same. I doubt that was the case, but I don't know.

[tryphon]

All racing Stratos were converted to Group 4. No Stradale cars were, or could due to their shorcomings, be used in competition.

All Stratos used a Dino engine and gearbox. Some cars had reinforced gearbox casings, allowed up to '78, but these are hard to spot.

Only factory raced Stratos used 4 valve engines (i.e. no private entered or private team owned ones) while the factory run. These came with the cam covers you describe that were either orange/red, deep green or black. The cam covers had Dino 246 written on them except on 4 engines, that were used for journalist/reporter appreciation. These 4 engines had "Lancia" etched on the cam cover to replace the Dino 246 logo.

So the car you describe has a 4 valve engine. The alternator should therefore be located on the right side and is driven by the rearmost bank's inlet cam.

[dallas]

Hmmmmmmm, very interesting. They have given me the Lancia cam covers, and the alternator is attached to the right front side of the engine (by bracket and adjusting arm), but driven by belt from the crank and water pump pulleys.

I'm definitely doing the cam covers in black, though.

[tryphon]

I strongly suggest you go for orange cam covers. It's a matter of taste, of course, but most 4 valve cars had them orange too.

Your engine should look like this:

[dallas]

You know, I was wondering if that was the cover you were referring to. What I have here is the wide, flatter cover with the two distinct higher (outer) portions where the cams sit just below. The are somewhat similar the the covers on my ZR-1, and definitely not the more rounded ones you are showing me.

I must admit, the orange looks good on those covers.

Now...I went back and looked at the pic I posted before with the black covers. What I have seems to be a cross between those, the covers you have shown me, AND the more squared off Ferrari covers with the deeper channel in the center. I always thought these looked like Alfa Romeo covers. I wonder if this was a mistake, or if they didn't know which to use so they blended the two styles.

I'll try to take a pic myself and post it.

[tryphon]

The picture I posted is that of one of the four 4 valve engines that has Lancia etched on the cam cover.

According to your descritpion what your kit has a 2 valve engine. I'm almost sure Munari run and won the 1976 Monte Carlo with a 4 valve car. If that's the case, I'll check further, your model is not correct.

[dallas]

Let's see if I can get this up for you to see. I had to really shrink it down. The head and cover in the front has the "Lancia" name on it. The one installed on the block does not.

[tryphon]

This is a 2 valve engine only not very precise. The recessed part of the cam cover where the spark plugs are should go deeper.

All 2 valve engines had the "Dino" logo embossed on them. No exceptions so yours is incorrect. They were all bare aluminium, not painted.

All 2 valve Group 4 cars had the alternator on the left side of the engine.

And Munari's car had a 4 valve engine. This car, the real one, is now owned by Thomas Popper in Geneva.

[dallas]

This is getting sticky. If you'll notice there are no bolts on the inside of the cam/cam bearing rows. I could round off the edges to make them look more like a 4 cammer, but then I wonder about the location of the distributor. The model has it on the inside left front cam (of course, I can put that anywhere). These Doyosha guys must have had too many bottles of Saki when they set up their moulds.

Here's what the front of my engine is shaping up to look like. It sounds like it is a wrong application for this version of car. But then, the box and instructions say "Monte Carlo type", not Monte Carlo winner. I guess it's possible that Munari could have driven a #1 car with a different engine/heads combination???

[tryphon]

The problem is that appart from the aspect difference 4 valve heads are also less wide than 2 valve ones.

You should definetely try to make it look like a 4 valve, similar to the one on the picture I posted. Also Munari's car had "Dino 246" written on the heads, not "Lancia".

The alternator should be on the right side exactly as on the picture I posted.

Your model should also have "round" rear wheel arches as opposed to the "square" ones of latter Group 4 cars. It also should not have an air vent on the roof.

[dallas]

I can get the heads and covers very close, and I do have the rounded wheel arches. and no roof vent. But if I'm seeing right, your alternator is driven from a pulley that is right on the end of the inside cam.

Here's the pic I mentioned. It's more like the front of my engine.

[tryphon]

That's my engine in your picture.

What you see on this picture is the distributor housing, not the alternator. My engine has now been modified to Group 4 spec and part of the mods require fiiting Group 4 exhaust manifolds. Now these will not allow enough clearance to fit the alternator in its original position which is on the right low of the picture you posted, you can still see the bracket in the picture. So the water pump pulley is now driven directly by the crank and nothing else is connected to the belt between them.

Here's a picture of the alternator's new location:

[dallas]

Yes, that's a big difference. Geez, they didn't get much of this right, did they? I can rework most of this, and building a new exhaust is not hard (using the largest silver solder and/or soft aluminum rod), but I'm wondering what else I'm going to run into.

It would actually be easier to deepen the center of the cam covers, add the inner bolts, and go with the 2 cam version....but I hate to even consider that if the car never existed that way.

Your pics have been a tremendous help, and I want to thank you again. If you can show anything else that would help with this engine "conversion/correction" I would appreciate it. This was suppose to be "out of the box", but it would be a waste to build a bogus replica. :(

[tryphon]

I have detailed pictures of the car you are building, the exact same one. I could send you details of it, not whole pictures as I promised its owner I wouldn't make them public.

One other area you should be careful about is the cascade gears cover located at the end of the clutch bellhousing. I would bet your kit has a standard Stradale cover whereas the Group 4 cars used a much deeper one to accomodate the interchangeable ratios. It should look like this:

[dallas]

Thanks, Tryphon.

I'll be happy with whatever you feel comfortable sending. The engine and engine bay is my most critical need, but of course the boot and interior also need to be as accurate as I can make them. You can send directly to my email address with attachments to save space here. mishalah@usa.com will get anything to me.

believe it or not, the gear cover looks to be deep like your pic....maybe a little deeper in scale. I guess I'm gonna be surprised at every turn.

[chris.richard]

Originally posted by tryphon
That's my engine in your picture.
:D

This is fascinating thread, and surely wins all available "anorak points"!:)

[tryphon]

Cheers, Chris. You only need to get me started on the Stratos and then there's no end...

[Stratos]

Originally posted by dallas
You can send directly to my email address with attachments to save space here.

Don't worry about space or bandwidth - that's not a problem.

AND, I'm sure most enthusiasts are completely enthralled by this thread - I know I am.

Keep it going here.

[guy mayers]

Ditto.

[chris.richard]

Originally posted by tryphon
Cheers, Chris. You only need to get me started on the Stratos and then there's no end...

Have you thought of writing a book? The level of detail you know hasn't been published anywhere.....

[stewart]

Just before I got to Chris' post I was thinking exactly the same thing!. .:D

Absolutely fascinating detail. Many people wouldn't go to this much trouble on a real car let alone a model. I think it is great and certainly very, very interesting!

Keep it going guys!

[tryphon]

As I said I promised not to make my pictures public and I will stick to that promise. These I use as a base to build my car and the progress is slow as most parts are very difficult to locate.
Some examples are the rose-joints by Schaublin in Switzerland, the fabricated suspension parts, etc.

I would highly recommend to everyone interested to get a copy of the Stratos workshop manuals and parts manuals. These were mentionned in the recent article of Classic Cars.

The parts manual contains drawings that allow comparison of the Stradale and various Group 4 versions/evolutions.

Some passionate people around the world either have stocks or are able to fabricate precise copies of parts and they are my "logistics".

I am deeply fascinated by the Stratos and have been so since I was a kid. Cars in general are my hobby and when I get involved with one I want to know everything about it, undestand the choices of the engineers/manufacturers. I have pushed this hobby to the extreme regarding the Stratos but there is so much still to learn...

[guy mayers]

Tryphon - I think you have a very advanced stage of some contagious disease that we are all suffering from........ Fortunately it is incurable. Long may it last.
G

[dallas]

I must admit that the Stratos, especially those featured in the big name races, have always fascinated me. I remember looking at a Fiat X/19 back in '74 with the thought of buying for my wife, and thinking how it looked like that really cool "new " hot rally car.

Years ago, I bought the book "Lancia Stratos" by Graham Robson mostly for the pictures. Unfortunately, there is not very much to use for detailing the model. I know now, though, that I need to read the text to get some answers about what these cars really were.

But, I still have a big challenge with this engine. I can alter most of it to replicate the 4 valve version, but IF there is a similar car with the 2 valve engine maybe that's what I should be building. The relocation of accessories isn't a problem...unless it won't fit into the bay with the changes. But, if I make a major correction like going from the "blended 2 valve" that Doyusha gave me to a true 4 valve, then I might as well get out all the photoetch nuts, bolts, lines, a/n connections, etc. and do it right. Of course, that would change the class I would be able to enter if I ever get around to showing it at a contest.

I would rather be accurate, and I'll bet most people who build these (and there aren't too many out there), never questioned the accuracy of the engine. OR....maybe they have run into the same problem and didn't know how to correct it. I will say that I have NEVER seen one of these 1/12 Stratos in any contest I have ever been to or read of.

There must be a reason. Hmmmmm, I feel a serious challenge coming on!

OK, here's the deal. If I don't have some "encouragement" (since I already missed the IPMS Imperial Palace contest) this super kit may frustrate me and start collecting dust. That would be bad because it's spread all over my work area, and because I really do want to finish it. I'm going to keep working on this engine until I get it right. I would like to post pics as I go so I get feedback and we can see if it's going down the right path. If any of you can post ANY more correct Group 4 pics that will help this move along we can all learn something.

First challenge though: which version should I build? A--continue with a 2 valve engine, then figure out what car it should be in (may mean changing markings...ugh!). B--make all possible corrections to change engine to 4 valve with proper attachments/accessories.

Which way do WE go, guys???

Here's a pic of the 4 suspension components so far...still needing detailing: