Brake upgrade

[quick_andreas]

Does anybody have experience in upgrading brakes with Gerrys Alfa 164 upgrade kit? I have the standard brakes currently, Lancia beta rear calipers and Fiat 132 front, Fiat 131 master brake cylinder and servo, further Compomotive split rims as shown in the picture enclosed (front 7,5*15 with 205/50, rear 8,5*15 with 225/50). Specific questions:

1) parts needed apart from Gerrys kit?
2) does the brake master cylinder / servo stay?
3) can the mechanical handbrake mechanism be reused?
4) Is there any chance of reusing the rims by exchanging the inner part to a 5-stud type?

Any help is highly appreciated as I am thinking over what to do next winter-season and want to use the summer to source parts cheap. The reason to look for brakes is mainly the look, not the function of the standard brakes. I am not a race driver, but they are simly too tiny.

Many thanks, Andreas

[guy mayers]

Hi Andreas, can I suggest that the man to speak to is Gerry himself? But be warned - he'll try to sell you a set of wheels as well! The expenses won't stop with the brakes, remember that the hubs have to be changed too and on the back disassembly of the Beta bearings is terminal as the outer race comes off with the hub.
If you want to speak to Gerry in person he will be at the Essen show this week along with Nico, his car(s) and a set of the new wheels.
As to whether or not the Alfa brakes will improve your stopping ability I can't say. That is down to the contact patch/grip on the tyres. If you can lock the wheels than the brake upgrade will not stop the car any quicker. What it will do is improve the consistency of the brakes, delaying the onset of brake fade with constant hard use. For this reason alone it has to be worth doing!
The wheels on your car look like Compomotive FH pattern and should be available from the factory or agents in a 98mm five stud pattern. Whether it's worth buying complete wheels and selling yours complete is a matter of doing the maths! I suspect that complete wheels are more valuable than centres alone.
Guy

[mogul_x]

Andreas,

In response to question 1: You will need to acquire a set of front hubs and wheel bearings from Lancia Delta Integrale Evo1. The bearings should be a direct replacement for the Beta units, but obviously you'll need a set of beta locking rings.

I think you also need to order a set of Integrale outer CV joints WITHOUT ABS rings, if you intend to re-use your old uprights. Best confirm this with Gerry.

I think the hadbrake and M/C from the original setup can be re-used, and you should be able to re-use your rims if you change to a 5-stud center.

[roger001]

Alternatively ......

If you dont want the expense of changing to 5 stud hubs wheels, use the standard M/C, alfa 164 calipers front and rear, Integrale 4 stud discs at the front and thema 4 stud disks at the rear. (the 132 caliper mounting plate can be adapted to take the 164 caliper).

small spacers are needed for the disks/calipers at the rear, to clear the hub carriers. the fronts line up nicely.

If you are interested in going down this route I can post pics of the front mountings etc.

[quick_andreas]

yes Roger,

could you please mail me some more information about this way? The 5 stud conversation I thought is mandatory, but if not even better, since the right look I can not achive anyhow with the Compomotive rims. Is this something you tried personally on your car?

Thank you, Andreas

[roger001]

I am using it at present, I will take a camera with me next time I'm at the barn and get some photos for you.

[Mel Lewis]

Can you send me a set of pics too. cheers rog.

[roger001]

Have posted pics in the gallery, (not polished and shiny but well used over the years). calipers are 164 front, thema turbo rears (which I believe are identical to 164 rears).

Fronts - Integrale disks with 16mm set back of disk from hub face (a second pair I had were different with a 20mm setback these needed a 4mm shim (turned down piece of old disc) to line up with the caliper.

Caliper mounts from 132 re drilled. extra nuts (drilled out) are simply spacers to fit with the length of the bolts, these can be welded in place to add strength.

Rears are thema turbo rear disks with a 2mm shim behind to clear the hub carriers, the callipers have a thin washer between the hub carrier and the calliper. Handbrake cable is the same as with the beta calipers.

[quick_andreas]

Thanks Roger for that,

seems to be a fairly easy way to upgrade the brakes. Did you notice a significant improvement in stopping power or fading effects with that? Or different balance between front and rear?
Another question: Does the brake-master cylinder (Fiat 131 with servo in my case) stay in place? Pedal force different with the new callipers?

Thanks again, cheers

Andreas

[roger001]

The 132/beta set up was fine with a beta engine, although suffered if pushed hard, one quick lap at castle combe and they could overheat.
I upgraded to thema turbo front and rear when installing the Alfa engine which were Ok but not brilliant. The 164 set up appears much better, I have so far tried them out in testing at Cadwell and no problems whatsoever, I'll be using them in anger at Mallory on Easter Monday - ask me again then!

I am using the original 131/servo set up at the M/C end. there is no problem with pedal pressure the only difference is in increased pedal travel.

[Sando]

Hi Rog
Good Stuff, this will come in very useful.
Can you say what diameter the Front / rear discs were? I think there are a couple sizes of Integrale / Thema discs? or are the diffences betweeen the Thema / Integrale / HF turbo.
260mm and 284mm spring to mind. I also thought the 164 rears were vented, but I've never looked closely before.

Cheers
Rob:cool:

[roger001]

Cant say I remember the measurements but those figures sound about right, AFAIK Alfa 164s rears are all solid discs.

[quick_andreas]

Is there anything that can go wrong sourcing the Alfa 164 callipers? I believe they are all the same, no matter what engine the car has?

Thanks, Andreas

[quick_andreas]

and a second one: Are the callipers Alfa 164 rear really the same as Lancia Thema rear? The brake pads are.

Thanks, Andreas

[Sando]

Mmmmmm
That goes back to my disc diameter question. I think that the Thema rears maybe 260.(or would you use fronts - pehaps this is where I'm being confused with the vents on the rear??????) These are 260 I believe.

I think the 164s and later Integrale's are 284 (fronts that is) don't know about the rears. There have been other threads on this but I haven't had time to look yet.

My thoughts are that I will need bigger brakes on the rear, so I'd ideally like to fit 284s with a handbrake Caliper. May end up looking at a vented rear caliper from something.

Rob:cool:

[roger001]

A useful site for cross referencing parts, confirms thema and 164 rears are 251mm dia.

Delta fronts 284 same as 164.

Prices are pretty good too....

http://www.buypartsby.co.uk/

With regard the small rears I now have had a chance to try the out in anger at mallory the rears were consistently locking under heavy braking due to weight transfer.

options - switch to a harder compound eg DS 2000 instead of DS 3000 for the rears or cut a segment out of existing rear pads for the time being.

[colin artus]

Surely an adjustable limiter in the rear line would be a better solution? It would help in the wet too.


Colin

[roger001]

Good thought except I have a limiter in the front circuit already to limit front lock up in the wet.

I could always move it.... although would mean a fir bit of re plumbing on the brake pipe front.

[colin artus]

Roger,
If you have a limiter in the front how is it set? If you are locking the rears (in the dry) then you need to restore pressure to the front, assuming it isnt already set wide open.

Colin

[roger001]

It was set wide open, this was mainly a hang over from road use where wet front lock up was a major problem. presumably because there is inadequate grip to allow weight transfer to the front. I retained it as there was no point changing things untill I knew how it copes as it is.

By changing rear compund it may allow me the best of both worlds and is an easier option than re-plumbing the brake lines.

[roger001]

Have looked at the piping and I'm sure you are right the best thing to do is to resite the bias valve into the rear circuit.

Ho Hum another job to add to the list......