ive found a dino powered stratos

[bondy]

could someone please tell me what it is or could be worth. its got the 308 gt4+4 engine and box leda custom shocks and kevlar panels no paint no loom no brakes no glass any ideas please help email or pm me thanks bondy phatnova24@hotmail.com

[chris.richard]

Thre would be a huge variation in value depending on things like the chassis (Hawk / Allora / Corse / Gartrac); the standard of workmanship; the condition; the type of fittings / interior (original or modern aftermarket).
I don't know how much Ferrari engines are worth, but I'll stick my head over the parapet and guess £3,000 plus the value of the engine / gearbox.

[mogul_x]

Leda Struts and Kevlar panels are worth about £2,300 (as of 2001 - current prices may be higher) as options from Hawk Cars. There's a 2-valve 308 drivetrain with loom and ECU for £5,500 on racecars.com, and I think that's in the neighborhood of what Jeff Davison paid for his 308 drivetrain last year.

So, including Chris' estimate of £3,000 for the rest of the kit, £10,800 seems a reasonable nominal value. Could be a little higher if the kit is complete apart from the windshield and wiring, perhaps less if the health of the engine is in question.

As Chris said, the manufacturer and condition are very important for narrowing it down much more than that. Lowest price I'd ever seen on a used Hawk / Transformer was £4,000, and the condition of that car was very rough. All the parts were there, but not assembled, and there was a broken windshield.

Hope this helps,

[bondy]

thanks to all off you who have replied iam going to have a serious look this weekend and list what is there and what is not. as for value ive been speaking to a few ferrari people and the 308 gearbox's are gettting hard to comeby and can fetch £5000. so i think it could be a safe buy. hope to speak to you soon bondy

[Sando]

Hi Bondy
if you can get a photo or two of the chassis around the rear or front suspension and post it I'm sure it could be identified. Going on the Leda Shocks and the Kevlar panels I would be thinking Hawk as a guess at this stage.

cheers
Rob:cool:

[bondy]

its gartrac and treansformer or hawk with custom lower arms rose jointed throughout etc

[mogul_x]

If it's definitely a Transformer / Hawk, then the figure we came up with on this thread is probably reasonable. Hawk cars offers fullly rose jointed suspensions as standard on new cars, and as a retrofit to older ones.

If it's a Gartrac monocoque, though, that puts it in an entirely different league altogether. Figure on something close to double the original number, from what's been said on other threads. They were something like £14,000 new, weren't they?

Does the car have a steel roof, or composite? I thought the Gartrac monocoques were supposed to be very faithful to the original Bertone Monocoque, including all steel construction. If the roof is Kevlar or Fiberglass, it's almost surely a Hawk.

[bondy]

it is definatly a gartrac chassis with eother hawk or transformer panels etc. the engine hasnt been running for ten years but was running fine when removed from car its got new leda strutts/disc's and rotors and is rose jointed through out

[mogul_x]

Wow. If it's for sure a Gartrac car, I guess it's worth somewhere North of £20,000 on paper, based on the content. At this point, it might be less expensive to buy a new kit from Hawk Cars.

Of course, that 's probably only true if you do a Alfa or Beta build. If you were to build a new Hawk around a Ferrari powerplant, I don't know if the finished price would be all that different. You'd still need to find a 308 engine to complete the build, so I guess it becomes a question of how complete that Gartrac car is relative to a unstarted kit.

[chris.richard]

Gartrac shells are rare as rocking horse shit. That certainly puts the value up a lot. Ferrari engine and Kevlar panels - that'll make a very nice car.

[chris.richard]

Colin Artus posted this a while ago:-
Gartrac made two tubs as far as I recall. They were really nice work too; the panels were much more accurately made than the Bertone originals and so did not require all the lead loading that was used to get the finished shape. I think they were asking about £14k for the tub in 1990. They made all the jigs so they might still be able to make them now.

One of two made would make it even more desirable. Can you give us any more history, Bondy?

[bondy]

thanks for all your help guys il tell you all i know ive been told its gartrac ive no reason to doubt it . its got composite panels throughout the chassis has been modified with extra braces etc ,intended for competition its got a 308 power unit which was running when bought but hasent been run for 10 to 12 years. the rear drive shafts are ford cossie and rear wheel bearings changed for a stronger item. i believe it will come with 5-10 sets of wheels. from what i can see it needs seats loom glass one drive shaft calipers all round and general finishing to most areas. plus paint. is there any sure way to tell if it is gartrac ??? the floor is alloy sheet but i suspect thats been changed for weight reasons. hope to speak soon bondy

[chris.richard]

Is the roof metal or composite? Only Gartrac and Lancia are metal.

[bondy]

as far as i can remember its composite but that could be covering a steel roof. but iam 99%sure there is no steel in the roof but that could be due to weight factors

[SUSIT]

Bondy,
It sounds like a transformer with Alloy floor and composite roof. The Gartrac was almost 100% copy of the original in that the whole of the centre section of the car was all steel including the roof and side panels. On the original only the doors, front and rear section were in glassfibre. It still sounds like a lot of good bits have been used. It just depends on the value the seller puts on it. I am sure you will have thought of this already but try and price the parts you will need to complete it and add a fair wack on again then see the total cost. If you read through this forum you will see a common theme in that those of us lucky enough to have a replica have spent far more than we had considered. I am sure the rest of the guys will correct me if I am wrong. But you only live once and when it gets in the blood you cant get it out again so if its what you want go for it.

Stephen:)

[bondy]

the seller is a family friend so ive no reson to not trust him but iam getting so many mixed views on this car its mainly my fault as i cannot give enough info. but sum say if its got a dino lump its worth jack shit others say if its gartrac its not worth a bean and give me the sellers number !!!! ive no reason to doubt what it is and iam sure if it has no meatl roof or floor its due to weight removel. i know i cant get a dead cert figure but would could a car of the spec ive describe be worth in a good finished state ??

[colin artus]

If you are going to use it on the road you will need the chassis number - this will tell you if it is a Transformer/ Hawk or something else. The chances of it being a Gartrac monocoque are , frankly, next to zero. Post the chassis number and the mebers of this forum will be able to tell you what it is. The engine and box are worth a minimum of £3k alone and these units are pretty robust so it shouldnt take too much to get going.


Colin

[SUSIT]

. i know i cant get a dead cert figure but would could a car of the spec ive describe be worth in a good finished state ??


Like all things Bondy, Its only worth what someone is willing to pay for it in the end in terms of selling value. Insurance value is slightly different. Looking at all the cars that have been for sale over the previous 2 years on this forum most are advertised between £10000 and £15000 for completed cars. Bob Sharps car that Nico now has was initially on the market a few years back at £20000 but no idea if He got anything like that. It is a very tidy car. Hope this helps.


Stephen

[chris.richard]

It definately sounds like a Hawk / Transformer, not a Gartrac. No-one could or would have cut out the roof and floor from a proper all steel monocoque for weight saving. The loss of stiffness and strength would have been a greater loss than any weight.

Thse cars cost a lot more to build than they can be sold for when finished. Steve has mentioned recent sale prices - build costs depend on the spec, but are £20,000 upwards if starting from scratch with a new kit. Starting with a part-built kit like yours will be cheaper, but there are often some nasty surprises - other people's quality of work and choice of components may not be the same as yours! You need to take a really close look at every component before committing yourself - lots of scope for arguing the price down if you've got an eagle eye!

[mogul_x]

I'll have to agree with the others in that this car is most likely not a Gartrac car. From what we do know, it is most likely a Hawk. If it is, there will be a serial number stamped on the frame in two places:

1) Near the top edge of the brake master cylinder mounting bracket (located fairly high on the front bulkhead)

2) On the rear crossmember, in the top left hand corner of the rear surface, as viewed from the rear of the car.

These may be hard to read, as they aren't stamped very deeply, and the powder coat or paint on the frame fills in the letters.

Photographs of the frame would be the only other way to confirm the car's origin.

[SUSIT]

One other thought?
Not sure if you are looking on the car as a potential to make money on or are keen to keep, however if the 308 motor can be made to run then you could sell it for a fair amount and that might fund the remainder of the build using an Alfa V6. They can be bought for £100 for a 12 valve V6 to about £1000 for a OK 24 valve V6. Done right I dont think it would have much effect on the final value. A lot of people could be put off by a Ferrari engine. Huge bills if it goes wrong. At present Alfa not too difficult to come by. What do others think?

Stephen

[colin artus]

Makes sense if you're not wedded to the idea of the Ferrari engine and if you choose the 24v Alfa the there is no power deficit; those 250 Italian horses are only 225 at best in the real world. Also you can get the 24v engine for less - I just bought a complete car for £300!


Colin

[bondy]

thanks again for all your comments. like i said iam in no doubt that the chassis is gartrac,however i could be wrong after all thats why iam on this site. ive done lots of homework and the power unit hasent been run for 10/12 years and have been strongly advised to keep away as there could and most probaly will be some very dear surprises install on the other hand i may just take the chassis and panels and let the current owner keep the engine. can anybody recommend any sites to look at other new kits hawk/transformer ?

[chris.richard]

I'm interested in why you're so certain it's a Gartrac - it seems very unlikely, and you're description doesn't fit. You need to be absolutely certain, because if you pay Gartrac price, and it turns out to be a Hawk/transformer, it'll end in tears!

[colin artus]

If its a Gartrac shell then it will be LHD. You might have noticed that.


Colin

[Sando]

If its a Gartrac shell then it will be LHD. You might have noticed that.
:D :D :D


Is there a possibility the seller is thinking of Gartrac instead of Saftey Devices??
They made chassis and parts for the Transformer/Hawk for a time.
- mine is one of these.

The Chassis Number will tell you, if it starts SD, JRC or STSL.

Cheers
Rob:cool:

[Sando]

Originally posted by bondy
can anybody recommend any sites to look at other new kits hawk/transformer ?

Not sure if this is what you meant, either follow the link from the main pages of this site or try http://www.hawkcars.co.uk/hf3000/index.html

Rob