Any thoughts on the next Consortium project?

[mogul_x]

All,

Just wanted to throw out the idea of reproduction side windows in glass as a potential future project for the consortium. The idea was breifly discussed in the thread "Side windows" last summer.

At the time, I'd found the following info:

I found a shop here in the 'States that can do custom tempered side glass. A place called AutoTemp in Ohio. Their web site is www.autotempinc.com, and the phone number is +1 800 486 1547. I need some more information to get an estimate, but here's what I found so far:

If we can get one orignal part (either hand, assuming they're symmetrical) there would be a one-time, $500 charge to make a CAD model, which could be mirrored to make both hands.

Assuming that the side glass has only a single radius of curvature, no tooling would be required. Based on the approximate size, the price would be in the $250 range for a single piece, with a run of 20 going for perhaps $100 each.

Amortizing the CAD charge over a run of 20 pieces would end up with a piece price of about $112.50, or $225 per pair (about 150 Pounds).

The estimates they gave me before were ballpark number based on the above assumptions. They'd need some measurements, or the original piece, to come up with a more accurate estimate. If tooling is required, it could get pricey. I can't seem to find the name of the guy I spoke to there. He asked me to e-mail any information to him at: info@autotempinc.com

At the current exchange rate, $225 works out to about GBP120 per set, plus the cost of any tooling needed. Any interest in exploring this further, or has anyone else already undertaken such a project?

Just curious....

[Jeff Davison]

Scott,

I have an original left side glass.
If, as you mentioned we only need one side (providing that both sides are symetrical), we have a part to pattern from.

Since the dollar is very weak against the GBP and the Eur, NOW would be a very cost effective time for blokes across the pond, and even Roberto Consetta could join in on this project.

JD

[SUSIT]

Hi Guys
I would be interested in such a project

Regards

Stephen Struthers

[chris.richard]

Steve, if memory serves, your record with glass side windows is as bad as your record with eBay!!:D

[SUSIT]

Steve, if memory serves, your record with glass side windows is as bad as your record with eBay!!

Chris, good day sir
I cant decide if thats funny or not!
:) :)

On a more serious note, As a safety feature on rallies in particular having side glass you can smash to get out is no bad thing.
( There are some benefits to being small )

Stephen

[JohnB_SPY8808053]

How about another run of wheels for those of us who usually get raises in April. :D

John B.

[guy mayers]

Personally I've always wanted side glasses but the timing, for various reasons, couldn't be worse for me at the moment! I suspect that you'll also find that the glass has a double curvature, albeit a small one, which will make production costs excessive. Gerry was quoted £3000 per side ffor the tooling a few years back and decided to take it no further. But, if you do manage something, please let me know, circumstances can change.
Guy

[mogul_x]

Guy,

At this point, I was just looking to see if there was enough interest to pursue the idea. If we got a dozen or so people at least saying they'd consider it, then it would make sense to start looking onto tooling costs, taking measurements, etc.

If there's only two or three people who are really interested, then it's doubtful we'd ever get enough to warrant taking it futher. Even if we were to proceed, I doubt that we'd be anywhere near the point of taking orders for many months, perhaps even next year.

I'd be interested to hear whether Gerry would have any interest in the subject, or if perhaps Roberto Cassetta feels there is any demand for glass side windows on his end.

[Zarathustra]

I'd buy an extra set of windows for those prices...

[Jeff Davison]

I paid $350 JUST for the left side. :eek:

If Scott's pricing holds up, it definatly is the bee's Knees.

Scott, the balls in your court for following through.

Let's get some European interest before the Dollar gets strong again :D

Maybe after this, if sucsessful, we can get the consortium to pop for a monocoque central tub ;)


JD Atlanta

[guy mayers]

Now there's an idea BUT it's been done already! A company called Gartrac (I think) made a few some years back but would only supply to owners of the original who could demonstrate an existing chassis beyond repair. I think Omicron may have the last one that they were going to build up for a Japanese customer but it fell through. Nico may know more following his recent visit there? But I think I want to keep what I've got! Gerry always said he could get one if he asked but the price was very silly so he never bothered!
Guy

[Randle Roberts]

I have one of the Gartrac tubs and those guys did an unbelievable job. I would say it is less than 5% different than my two original cars and then in only is the smallest of ways. I have pics of the build-up they did and when I compare it to the real deal it is amazing how exacting they were in so many of even the small details. Those guys were great crafstman and very pleasant to deal with.

[Randle Roberts]

On the subject of Stratos glass-- why not contact Glaverbell and see if they would be interested in making all the glass. They probably wouldn't but you never know.

[colin artus]

The Gartrac tub was £14k back in 88/89 when they were making the first one. Don Fenwick was the drive behind the project and he may weel have had one as I know he had collected a lot of the parts for a car. The tub jigs were patterned from Grenville Griffiths Gp4 car. The fuel tanks that Gartrac made were especially nice.


Colin

[chris.richard]

Originally posted by mogul_x
about GBP120 per set, plus the cost of any tooling needed.


I could be persuaded at that sort of price.

[mogul_x]

Well, that's 6 who've at least expressed a passing interest on this thread. I'll try getting in touch with AutoTemp and see what we'd need to do to investigate further.

[Jeff Davison]

Scott,

How about taking a que from the consortium. Set up an escrow account at a bank and start collecting funds for a critical mass? If c.m not met, then funds go back to members. Once c.m. met, balls to the wall, we're having glass.

members,

Another possible once in a lifetime opportunity, so put your money (risk free) where your mouths are.


LET"S DO THIS!!!!!!!!


JD Atlanta

[mogul_x]

Jeff,

Sounds like a good idea - once I get a firmer estimate on production price / tooling. The numbers I have at present are way too preliminary to start taking deposits. If tooling is required, the price may rise to the point where interest drops off.

Besides, I think everyone's still tapped out from the wheel project right now. Assuming the final unit cost is close to the estimate ($225 per set), even a radical shift in the exchange rate back in our favor would keep the price under £175. Given the relatively small price shift (relative to the wheels) I don't think time is necessarily of the essence.

I'll need some real dimensions to give to Autotemp to see if tooling is required. You've got the only donor part I'm aware of, so if you want to discuss how we might proceed, feel free to drop me a line. If you'll be in the area for Carlisle later this spring, you could bring the window up with you and we could measure it on the CMM here at work (assuming it's working).

After that, we see what kind of tooling costs would be involved, and take it from there.

[stewart]

Guys,

I'm interested as well depending on the final price.

The way the Aussie dollar is going against the greenback they are becoming very affordable.

cheers

[guy mayers]

Ok guys, this looks like an excellent idea to me. It certainly has to be worth checking out. Transatlantic shipping may present a problem for a fragile product but thats a bridge that we can cross when we come to it. As Scott says, the important thing is the pricing and tooling amortisation costs. I guess that at the prices quoted we could jump a flight to New York to collect them as hand luggage!
Alternatively, they could be shipped over with parts that Gerry buys from the Kirkhams in Salt Lake City, he offered that route for a 124 Spider hardtop I was interested in once!
What I would suggest at this early stage is contacting Roberto Cassetta. It would be a disaster if he had already started the project and we duplicated it again! I have spoken to him in hte past but his reply was that demand was so low as not to warrant the project, he was talking about a couple of pairs each year max. Anyway, if he isn't doing it he may be interested in stock!
Guy

[PANOS]

AT THE QUOTED PRICE I MIGHT BE INTERESTED ALSO FOR A PAIR.
CAN THE GLASS BE TINTED???
45 DEGREES C (110? F) IN CYPRUS IN THE SUMMER YOU KNOW!!! AND THE STRATOS IS LIKE A SAUNA:(

CIAO PANOS:cool:

[chris.richard]

Originally posted by guy mayers
What I would suggest at this early stage is contacting Roberto Cassetta. It would be a disaster if he had already started the project and we duplicated it again!

I couldn't agree more.

[stableblock]

I'm interested too - There was a company on tv last night making curved toughened glass using very simple ceramic pad tooling - the application was architectural but may be another alternative.

[lyndon]

would any one be interested in reproducing the steering wheel, Gerry has mentioned this and said it may be possible if he can get hold of an original,
lyndon.

[guy mayers]

I guess that's another you could put me down for! Roberto already does the horn button so that's one less thing to worry about, I have emailed him inthe last few days and his reaction to the side windows was positive at the prices mentioned! More research needed but be ready for a shock when people realise it's double curvature!
Guy

[Jeff Davison]

Lyndon,

I don't need one...but / because I do have an original. If Gerry can do this, I might be talked into letting mine be used as a pattern (as long as I can get it back)
;)

JD Atlanta

[tryphon]

How about a batch of Montecarlo spec Bilstein shocks and springs?

[SUSIT]

How about a batch of Montecarlo spec Bilstein shocks and springs?


Totally different uprights & top mounts to most replicas and thats where a lot of the demand comes from.
Bilstein will make you a set to fit anything if you send them a pattern. I have a not too bad a price for my Allora. Only downside if you can call it that, is not ajustable except back at the factory.:)


Stephen

[Sando]

I think tryphon may mean the place, not the car...............:D :D :D

[tryphon]

Originally posted by Sando
I think tryphon may mean the place, not the car...............:D :D :D

Spot on...

[Sando]

PS

Selfishly, as it would possibly be country specific, but how about insurance policies?
- limited mileage
- Agreed Value (- for over 10 year old cars....?)
- Shows
- Track days?
I saw an advert for a policy like this in a classic car paper recently....damned if I can find it though to try and get a quote!
cheers
Rob
:cool:

[SUSIT]

Originally posted by Sando
I think tryphon may mean the place, not the car...............

I think he actually means the event run in the place:D :D :D :D

[SUSIT]

Is anybody taking the side glass proposal forward?
Guy has mentioned a double curve. Would that spell the end of the project in the US? Jeff can you confirm double curve?
Someone else on this side of the pond mentioned a glass company making curved windows for a house. I saw the programe as well did anyone get the name of the company involved? Has anyone contacted Roberto?

Sorry so many questions

Stephen

[Jeff Davison]

The door glass is spherical (double curveture). Just checked with the ole straight edge.

Just because it has the double curveture should not preclude from having it duplicated. Maybe a bit more expensive. But in todays world of "Rapid Prototyoing" and "Rapid Tooling" - specifically designed for low quantity parts and not needing long tool life, this, at first glance shouldn't put a halt onthe project.
The trick would be to find the right vendor.

JD Atlanta

[chris.richard]

Originally posted by SUSIT
Has anyone contacted Roberto?



Guy has.

[mogul_x]

Originally posted by SUSIT
Is anybody taking the side glass proposal forward? Yes, I'm currently playing phone tag with the guys at AutoTemp. At this point, I'm just trying to talk with them in the interst of getting a firmer estimate of the costs involved. Once I get that, we can see if the project is financially viable.

Guy has mentioned a double curve. Would that spell the end of the project in the US? Not neccesarily. It will cetainly increase the costs, but as Jeff said, with the right vendor, it may be possible to find a viable solution for a short run of parts. Just takes a little time to investigate!

Has anyone contacted Roberto?
Guy had spoken to him on the subject some time ago. At the time, Roberto had indicated that there wasn't enough demand to warrant tooling up a small production run. I don't know if Roberto's position has changed since. I'll send him an e-mail and try and confirm.

Cheers,

[mogul_x]

All,

Finally heard back from Autotemp. Spoke to a man named Danny McMahon. Based on a quick conversation, they sounded interested in pursuing the opportunity to do a run of glass for us.

He did say that their minimum order is 30 pieces, but that can be 15 of each hand. At this point, we will work up numbers assuming 30 pairs, and adjust later if need be. Also, they can offer plain or tinted glass, in a couple of different shades.

With regards to tooling costs - they guesstimated a maximum of around $4000, if they went with the same type of tooling they'd normally use for a high volume production run (i.e. all steel, manufactured by an outside tool maker, built to last forever). Since our side glasses are relatively small (compared to the backlights they normally manufacture), and the volume will be very low, they're going to look into ways of getting the costs down to a minimum.

The engineer I talked to said he was going to talk to his tooling department, and find out if they could machine the tools in house to save money. They are also going to do a little research into the ceramic tooling that Jeff and Peter mentioned, and see whether there is an opportunity to pursue that.

Jeff, we will need to get more specific information to Autotemp for their quotes. They said thay can start with a digital picture and a dimensioned sketch of the glass, but will eventually need access to the original piece to make the tooling, and match the tint. They can also work with one of the Plexiglass pieces from Hawk cars, assuming the plexi and glass are identical.

Will keep everyone posted as I find out more.

[Jeff Davison]

Scott,

I'm leaving Friday AM for Orlando for a week. Going to "AutoItalia at Portifino" car show at Universal Studios then d2 days in Miami. I can do a drawing when I get back next week.

How close is Autotemp to you? I could also send the drivers glass up to you if needed quicker than Carlisle.

Holding up a Plex window from Hawk against the glass original, they appear to be just about dead on exact except for the curvatures.

Jeff

[SUSIT]

This might be a silly thought but could you cover an original peice of glass then make a glassfibre mould as a reference rather than risk sending an original. Shoot me down if I am being rediculous

Stephen

[Zarathustra]

Where is this Autotemp you guys are dealing with? I've found an Autotemp located in Ohio. If that's the place, I think Dennis McCann has his Lancia Stratos in Ohio. I don't know if he'd be game to take out his windows and loan them. Then again, he does try to sell Stratos parts...

[mogul_x]

AutoTemp is in Batavia, Ohio. It's about 9 hours drive from me - not exactly a stone's throw!

Jeff, I'm not sure you'd need to send the glass to me. I only suggested it so we might measure it on the CMM here at work, and make a 3-D map of it. Sounds like we don't really need that to progress on the quote, although the 3-D data might be useful if we get around to making tools.

Basically, I don't think we need to rush. I'm content waiting till you'll be in the area. No sense risking it to the post if we don't have to. Since we both have a set of Hawk windows, I can probably put a sketch together to get the quote going. If you'd really rather do it yourself, that's OK with me. If I do it, I will need to get the thickness of the glass from you, at some point.

I am a little concerned about the difference in curvature between the glass and perspex windows you mentioned. I wonder why that is? Hopefully, the glass curvature will fit properly, since you can't heat & warp glass like some have their prespex windows to make them fit.

Pity we're not in the UK. It might be wise to test fit the glass window in a Hawk and a Corse just to make sure everything goes together properly.

[mogul_x]

Originally posted by Zarathustra
I think Dennis McCann has his Lancia Stratos in Ohio. I don't know if he'd be game to take out his windows and loan them. Then again, he does try to sell Stratos parts...

Dennis is in Ohio. Not sure if he has any glass side windows, or how amenible he'd be to loaning them out to do reproductions. I get the feeling that the cost of the loan would be something close to the purchase price.;)

I suppose there's no harm in asking. The worst he could do is impolitely say no.

[Jeff Davison]

The drivers side glass (left side in US) I have was from Dennis. He didn't have the otherside and a follow up enquiry last month to him he still didn't have one.

I have the last one he had. I obtained it about 9 months ago. expen$ive. $395 for the one side. eek:


Jeff:

[stableblock]

Curved glass amker from TV programme was

Design-a-Glass Ltd
Unit 10
Stonebroom Industrial Estate
Alfreton
Derbyshire DE55 6LQ
Tel: 01773 87 58 58
Fax: 01773 87 58 11
E-mail: info@Design-A-Glass.com
Website: www.design-a-glass.com


They didn't use a mould - bent it hot onto ceramic formers made of different length pegs - apparently cheaper?

[chris.richard]

There is nothing new in the curving or bending of glass in the architectural industry. Many companies have produced glass bends which are fit for purpose. They provide a welcome change from the normal straight edges found in civil engineering design in today’s architecture. They have shape, texture and form which stands out from the usual flat linear monotone elements we see in our everyday life. It makes the architect stand back and say “yes it can be done” adding a new dimension to their portfolio.

It catches the eye of the customer which may provoke him or her to comment “I did not think they could do that with glass” Yes they can. Most known methods of producing tempered curved glass comprises of a flat glass sheet being transferred over ceramic rollers into a oven with heating elements arranged in the top and bottom of the oven. Once the glass is heated it is transported to a bending device which includes a number of adjustable rollers arranged to operate above and below the glass in order to bend it to the desired radius. The glass bend is then cooled rapidly. However problems can exist in this method of bending glass. For instance, imperfections on the ceramic rollers can be transferred onto the surface of the glass.

This results in an unsatisfactory optical quality. In addition the method is problematical because the glass has to be heated far in excess of its melting point. This is around 660-670? centigrade. This is so that it reaches the bending application at a suitable temperature. At such temperatures the glass is in a semi molten state and is readily distorted. Again optical quality can be lost. From a process point of view there is a high cost involvement due to the initial tooling and the length time to produce the desired effect. Obviously the more you produce the cheaper each piece becomes. Commonly known as economies of scale. This can often be discerning to clients who have one eye on a diminishing budget and another on the fact that they only want 4-5 pieces to make the project complete. So what’s the answer?

At Design-A-Glass Ltd we have developed a unique process which has subsequently been patented to produce curved tempered glass. It uses the basic elements of moulds and heat but in a different process that over a period of 7 years has seen many satisfied customers. More importantly those satisfied customers keep coming back. The process is efficient, cost effective and produces a high quality curve used in the most prestige’s of venues. Design A Glass Ltd has supplied curved tempered glass all round the world. Examples of our glass can be found in the UK, New Zealand, Germany and the United Arab Emirites. The list is growing. The same has been supplied and installed here at home in such areas as the Pizza Express chain, Kings way Hall hotel, London as well as the major airport terminal of Heathrow and Gatwick.

The process is simple in its preparation and application. Glass is taken in sheet form which is cut by traditional or modern methods, polished and if required drilled. The glass is cleaned and inspected prior to the bending process. Bending is dependant on the thickness of glass and this ranges from 8, 10, 12, 15, 19 and 25mm. For all intense and purposes the glass panel is ready to be curved. The mould is a fabricated frame work or cradle which is produced from a known radius. These are simple to produce and a mould can be assembled in a very short time. The mould supports the glass in its flat form. The make up of each mould is produced from a thermal inert material and welded to produce the radius and at the same time supports the glass. For undertaking the radius this can be no less than 500mm

You will note that the method of bending glass here does not involve movement by the glass over ceramic rollers. This glass is kept still and only moves when the mould is transported. In the whole process this will be to the oven and out into the chilling section. Thus resulting in no imperfection picked up by the glass moving over any rollers as most bending process incur. The key element here is that the glass is stationary throughout the heating and cooling process. The supports for the glass in its flat form, and indeed whilst bending is taking place on the mould ensures a minimal surface contact with the glass is achieved. The points which are in contact with the glass are made of a anti marking material . Heat (Infra Red) is supplied to the oven via electrical elements.

[SUSIT]

Is there any progress on this subject? Is anyone else interested that has yet to come forward?

Stephen

[mogul_x]

Sorry, no progress on my end. Been meaning to get some dimensional info together for sending to vendors, but haven't gotten around to it yet.

While on the subject of dimensions, anybody know whether the CAE / Litton / Hennesey Corse side windows are the same as the Hawk / original pieces? Jeff compared the Hawk side window to his glass one and said they were nearly identical.

[guy mayers]

I think Gerry must read these forums as a sort of market research tool.
What do the lads REALLY want?
Wheels, lets do it, and it happens.

Tonight he emails me:-

I have got glass guy ready to go !!!, but have we got numbers ??? *********** (commercial confidentiality perhaps - just in case!) will do the side windows probably about £90 each ??? But need to find out how many interested
Best regards
Gerry Hawkridge

So, reading through the thread I count the following interested parties:-

Myself
Scott
Jeff (for one side only?)
Stephen
Gary
Chris
Stewart
Panos
Peter


Anyone else care to add their name to the list? (Deposit account in need of consortium money!)

[Speedmade]

I don't even have my car yet. But I know I will need some of these. Please count me in.

Reed Herman

[Cloggie]

I'll take a pair too Guy, but I'd like to part exchange on a pair of un-used Polycarbonate ones that I have in my garage !!

Cheers, Nico/

[chris.richard]

What are the (dis)advantages of glass over plastic?

1 - weight:(
2 - scratch resistance:)
3 - anything else?:confused:

[mogul_x]

Advantages of glass:

1) less susceptible to scratching or crazing than plastic.
2) Will not yellow with age (as plexiglass sometimes does with UV exposure)
3) Better compliance with SVA / safety regs? (more easily broken for rescue)

Disadvantages:

1) cost
2) weight
3) more prone to stone chipping / breakage

[CorseChris]

Put me down for a pair as well....

...with a proviso that I'll need to be sure I can fit them to a Corse and that the price doesn't head too far north of the £90 each mentioned..

Not sure how I'm going to find out if they'll fit my car though...

I do have some windows already, but suspect they may well be for a Hawk anyway.

[AndyH]

You can add my name to the list for a pair of glass side windows @ circa the £90 each cost.

[mogul_x]

Chris,

Best way to find out if they fit your car would probably be to borrow a known set of Hawk side windows and see if they'll go in. Somebody must have a set that hasn't been installed yet.

If you knew for sure the origin of the pair you have, it would be easy enough just to compare them as Jeff did with his original glass. But that requires that you be sure of what you have already!

[tryphon]

Just a few reserves before you can put my name down for a pair:

- How do you safely ship and at what price?
- The problem with glass is storing it safely in order to avoid finding out it's broken the day you need it

So may I suggest that if we go on and make these we make a cutom box to ship them and store them in safely.

Guy any thoughts on this?

[CorseChris]

Originally posted by mogul_x
Chris,

Best way to find out if they fit your car would probably be to borrow a known set of Hawk side windows and see if they'll go in. Somebody must have a set that hasn't been installed yet.

If you knew for sure the origin of the pair you have, it would be easy enough just to compare them as Jeff did with his original glass. But that requires that you be sure of what you have already!

Thought I could make a paper template from one of mine, then find some kind soul who has a Hawk and is willing to see if there are any differences....

I'm pretty sure the ones I have were actually made by the bloke I got my pile-o-junk from. He was proud of the mould he showed me saying it had more accurate curvatures than other well known brands. Allegedly.

[guy mayers]

Chris, I have a spare set of new polycard ones that i am going to put on the car sometime in the near future, you are more than welcome to try my old ones for size!
I am sure that the packing issues can be safely addressed. All it needs is a rigid box and some expanding foam! That's how screens com from Kia in Korea! (dealer on my books! I don't have one of their (excellent - in case he's reading this ) cars)
Guy

[Speedmade]

Several times I have shipped multiple large windscreens, side window glass, and rear screens from Australia to the US. We used expanding foam and thin plywood or pressboard crates. I have yet to get a broken screen.

One issue to think of though. Many countries (including US and UK) have put restrictions on packaging containing wood.
This can hold your shipment up pending fumigation (for insects) and cost extra money.

Reed H

[DaveAk]

I would be interested in a pair of glass side windows, count me in.

Dave Atkinson

[Stratos]

Originally posted by DaveAk
I would be interested in a pair of glass side windows, count me in.

Dave Atkinson

Not if you trade in your Stratos for an Exige :D

[lyndon]

Count me in,
plus if Chris wants a template, mine have yet to be unwrapped , and Worcester is not far for me to take a run out on a sunday morning. Will this mean the steering wheel goes on the back burner for a while
Lyndon .

[guy mayers]

I think we'll only ever be doing one project at a time Lyndon! You'd be amazed just how much time the wheels project swallowed up for Nico, Gerry and myself!
Like you, I would like both! I'm sure it's just a matter of time!
Guy

[lancia chris]

I am up for a set of window glass too. Sounds reasonable to me.

[CorseChris]

Originally posted by lyndon
Count me in,
plus if Chris wants a template, mine have yet to be unwrapped , and Worcester is not far for me to take a run out on a sunday morning. Will this mean the steering wheel goes on the back burner for a while
Lyndon .

Lyndon or Guy,

If I made up a paper template from the ones I have and posted it, would you be able to compare it to your side windows for me?

Obviously this won't give any info on curvature, but at least I'd know if the basic profile was the same and stood a change of fitting the hole....

Kind offer Lyndon, but I think I'd take a chance on a pair if the profile was good. They're not that expensive, and worst-case, I'd have a pair I could sell on I suppose. (You're most welcome if you just wanted to come up and look at the car of course..).


TIA...

[guy mayers]

Sure Chris, no problem! I suppose that if the size is the same there is no reason why the curvature should differ!
Guy

[CorseChris]

Thanks Guy - I'll make up a paper template and pop it in the post to you.

I've heard about the 'warm & bend' technique to improve fit at the top of the window so this might suggest some differences in top to bottom curvature I suppose...or simply differences in the way a door is put together by each individual....

[Mel Lewis]

:D Count me in for a pair. Sorry im a bit late but havent had time to check the site out lately.:(

[CorseChris]

I've recently been fitting my windows........and a big question results. Do you Hawk building chaps have to edit the profile of the side windows or do they fit just fine????


..'cos I have a huge pile of Perspex dust on the floor of my garage. :eek:

[guy mayers]

Mine sort of fitted fine....... Once I'd filled the pivot and adjusted holes with fibreglass and redrilled them a few mm lower so they shut properly...... Easy to do and after that no problems. Can't remember if I had to do both sides though because it was 13 years ago and I'm obviously going senile!
Guy

[SUSIT]

Back to the topic any sign of progress? Tryphon you know where most original items can be got, With all these people converting to Grp 4 surely some one might be interested in lending a couple of side windows to get copies made?

[tryphon]

I know where you can get original windows but the problem is glass and its transport. Some original Stratos had plexiglass windows as had all Group 4 cars. So what needs to be found is a plexiglass window which is less risky for transportation. I'll ask and come back to you but I hardly see anyone "lending" a window, I think it might have to be bought.

[SUSIT]

I know where you can get original windows but the problem is glass and its transport. Some original Stratos had plexiglass windows as had all Group 4 cars. So what needs to be found is a plexiglass window which is less risky for transportation. I'll ask and come back to you but I hardly see anyone "lending" a window, I think it might have to be bought.


If there is enough people wanting glass side windows then bought should not be an insurmountable problem. It would be like the tooling cost for the wheels.

[CorseChris]

Mine sort of fitted fine....... Once I'd filled the pivot and adjusted holes with fibreglass and redrilled them a few mm lower so they shut properly...... Easy to do and after that no problems. Can't remember if I had to do both sides though because it was 13 years ago and I'm obviously going senile!
Guy

Thanks Guy. Makes me think that I had Hawk windows then....'cos they sure didn't fit my Corse that well. Had to shave lots off the front to get them to fit and the basic profile at the top/back was wrong as well.

Looks like I won't be wanting a set of those glass ones then :(

[Chris J]

There are always (it seems) some Vitaloni door mirrors available on ebay with the same base/ball socket design as the very obsolete Fiat 127 Sport type.

I'm wondering if the tooling still exists for the 127 Sport mirrors and if it would ever be possible for a new production run?

Surely they'd sell?

[roberto cassett]

Hi everybody.

I’ve just started the reproduction of the STRATOS door windows in temperated glass.

They will be produced by one of the most important temperated car glass manufacturer here in Italy.

They’ll have of course certification and they’ll be remade 100% as the original, same shape, same glass, same finishment.

STRATOS fitted clear and tinted windows. We’ll remake both clear and tinted windows.

If SEC would partecipated to the first batch here’s my offer:

Rhs window:

 £ 74.00 each clear, £ 76.00 each tinted for a minimum order of 50 pieces (may be any quantity clear and any quantity tinted but a minumum total of 50 pieces).
 £ 114.00 each clear, £ 118.00 each tinted for a minimum order of 20 pieces (may be any quantity clear and any quantity tinted but a minumum total of 20 pieces).
 £ 175.00 each clear, £ 178.00 each tinted for a minimum order of 10 pieces (may be any quantity clear and any quantity tinted but a minumum total of 10 pieces).

Lhs window:

 £ 74.00 each clear, £ 76.00 each tinted for a minimum order of 50 pieces (may be any quantity clear and any quantity tinted but a minumum total of 50 pieces).
 £ 114.00 each clear, £ 118.00 each tinted for a minimum order of 20 pieces (may be any quantity clear and any quantity tinted but a minumum total of 20 pieces).
 £ 175.00 each clear, £ 178.00 each tinted for a minimum order of 10 pieces (may be any quantity clear and any quantity tinted but a minumum total of 10 pieces).

Believe me or not, the above are my costs. No profit for me.
As per previous times I’m trying to involve SEC in order to have a bigger quantity of items to reproduce and get a better price.
If SEC won’t be interested, I’ll reproduce the windows anyway but my cost will be higher and they’ll be then available not for a good price.

Please let me know if interested.

Roberto.

[guy mayers]

Hi Roberto, at the moment you can put my name down for a pair of windows provided we can get the quantity to 20+ pairs.
£350 for a pair is too much for me.
If you would like the SEC to act as fund holders for you to guarantee payment at the end I would be perfectly happy to administer the funds in the same way as we successfully did for the wheels project.
Thanks
Guy
(Treasurer SEC)

[chris.richard]

Roberto, any idea of shipping costs to the UK?

[guy mayers]

Either as one set to one individual or as a bulk delivery of all orders to one person please!
Guy

[John]

I asked Gerry briefly at Donnington, his opinion on the side windows as a project and he made the suggestion that the positioning of the pivot and lifting holes might be different for individual users. Is this going to involve everybody in rejigging their door inner panels etc.? Anybody else got any input or opinions?

[Arthur]

I have a hazy recollection from Hugh re. the Corse cars (all) that the doors had been reworked.
I was told there was a big difference in size for passenger to driver side on the original car, which Hugh claimed to have reduced considerably - 2 inches in length sticks in my mind.
Anyone know if this is just me mind going awol again, or if it's right? Cos that would likely affect the applicability of glass to those cars at least.
And yes, the exact positioning of pivot and slide holes is a bit airy-fairy. Not a problem with plastic, but could indeed ruin your whole day to get glass to fit. I'm not even convinced the roof line once sprung over the frame would be the same car-to-car, and that would affect appearance and even door sealing. (not that I have much of that in any case).

Arthur.

[AndyH]

You can add my name to the list for glass side windows. Same view as Guy on the 20+ price though.

Andrew

[roberto cassett]

Hi Roberto, at the moment you can put my name down for a pair of windows provided we can get the quantity to 20+ pairs.
£350 for a pair is too much for me.
If you would like the SEC to act as fund holders for you to guarantee payment at the end I would be perfectly happy to administer the funds in the same way as we successfully did for the wheels project.
Thanks
Guy
(Treasurer SEC)
Hi Guy, apologizes for delay in my answer.
I'll keep your name for a set of windows, if we'll able to produce 20+ pairs.
I'd like to accept your kind offer to administer this project with SEC.
It seems that only two members of SEC would be interested in a set of windows for the 20+ pairs price.
I hope we'll be so lucky to find 18 more.....

If you're in hurry there's a customer of mine who changed his STRATOS in Gr.4 and still has his old windows.

Price is £ 420.00 each.

Regards.
Roberto.

[roberto cassett]

Roberto, any idea of shipping costs to the UK?
Chris, we should pack them very accurately.

I think that a pair shipping cost would be about:

Express air mail, approx. 7 days, £ 40.00
UPS or DHL, approx. 2 days, £ 140.00

The above quotations are indicative. If this project will start I'll get the exact quotations.

Ciao.
Roberto.

[roberto cassett]

Either as one set to one individual or as a bulk delivery of all orders to one person please!
Guy
Of course bulk delivery of all orders to one person would be MUCH cheaper.
For a batch of 20 pairs shipped by surface it could cost about £ 150.00, that means only £ 7.50 a pair.
This is an approximative quotation. If the project will start I'll get the exact quotation.

Regards.
Roberto.

[roberto cassett]

You can add my name to the list for glass side windows. Same view as Guy on the 20+ price though.

Andrew
Thank you Andrew. I hope we can start this project soon.

If you're in hurry there's a customer of mine who changed his STRATOS in Gr.4 and still has his old windows.

Price is £ 420.00 each.


Regards.
Roberto.

[stewart]

Roberto,

I'm possibly interested in a pair of windows as well, although on the 20+ price, so please put my name down. Also, since I'm in Aus the freight costs here would be a consideration.

The issue of pivot points as raised above is relevant I think. Would it be a stupid suggestion to say that maybe windows could be supplied with fittings but without holes drilled and then we could all get them done to suit our individual cars? Surely a local glass manufacturer could drill them for us if that were the case?

Comment?

[John]

If the glass is to be tempered, I don't think it can be drilled afterwards. I have thought that if the hole were to be drilled quite oversize it would then be possible to fit an eccentric insert to the hole to provide an accurate pivot point.

[stableblock]

Hi
Just to confirm the PM I sent you I am also interested in a set at the 20+ price. Hole position not as critical for me as I'm still building.

Peter

[guy mayers]

So far it's just myself, Peter, Andrew and Stewart then??
Come on guys, there must be others out there interested in getting this project up and running with Roberto.
Guy

[Jeff Davison]

I'd do it for th e 50+ price. As it is it's way to ex$pensive with the exchange rate and international shipping. Besides, all I need is the right side as I have an original left side. Personally I think Robertos prices are on the "frivously" high side, even though he says they're at near his cost.

JD

[Speedmade]

I sent Roberto a email directly right after his first posting but I never heard back from him. I will throw my name in here.
Please count me in for a set of windows. I am willing to go in at any of his pricing, but of course hope that the price will come down with more people.

Reed Herman

[SUSIT]

So far it's just myself, Peter, Andrew and Stewart then??
Come on guys, there must be others out there interested in getting this project up and running with Roberto.
Guy

I am still interested however I cant be sure they would fit the Allora. Anyone any thoughts on how to work that out?
Stephen

[guy mayers]

Hi Stephen, Tom Ransom and I covered that one by laying a sheet of paper on a cushion, tracing the outline of the Allora window, posted it to me and repeated the exercise with a Hawk window. Needless to say they were completely different. I would have to say that there is no chance of the remanufactured windows fitting the Allora.... So I assume that the chances of them fitting the CAE are similarly remote.
Ideally we need to get the tracing to Roberto to confirm it matches the originals he has for sale or his pattern glass, alternatively, for Jeff to let us know if his single piece of original glass fits his Hawk kit...
Regards
Guy

[tomsredstratos]

Hi Guy, I have the pattern, if you need me to send it to someone let me know.

Tom.

[guy mayers]

Thanks Tom, I guess the logical destination for the pattern is either Jeff in the States as an impartial comparator or Roberto Cassetta with a return to you or me!
Volunteers to receive this piece of data step forward please!
Guy

[John]

Tom,
it would be a most useful excersize for me if you could send me a copy of the Allora pattern to allow me to compare with the Corse current pattern.
I am waiting for a new thermo forming mould at the moment for the Corse.
I have been told that there is a new grade of coated polycarbonate due out very soon which allows thermoforming without crazing and loss of coating and which has the potential for glass like clarity.
I am looking for more info. on this at the moment, and will report further when I know more.
Can you send me an email or PM if you can let me have a pattern. I will send you a large stamped addressed envelope.
John

[tryphon]

I was looking into LEXAN myself as I'm planning to go the opposite way i.e. glass to plastic. It seems this material can be coated in odrer to harden it, is as clear as glass, hundreds of times more resitant to impacts, does not loose its transparency with sunlight and is much lighter than glass.

[tomsredstratos]

Hi John, I have sent you an email about the pattern.
Tom.

[John]

tryphon,
as I understand it Lexan windows have to be heated to form the curve and must be made oversize as they craze from the outside edges inwards when heated. The crazed area is then trimmed off before use. The material is coated during manufacture and the heat forming process destroys the coating. I await more info. on the new grade of polycarbonate (Lexan is a trade name of polycarbonate sheet) which is supposed to get over these problems.
John

[tryphon]

Please let me know when/if your have more information.

Cheers,

[roberto cassett]

I sent Roberto a email directly right after his first posting but I never heard back from him. I will throw my name in here.
Please count me in for a set of windows. I am willing to go in at any of his pricing, but of course hope that the price will come down with more people.

Reed Herman
Reed,

I've received your message.
Apologizes to not have replied you.
I was waiting some time to see if we'd be able to start the minimum production.
It seems that only 3 - 4 people, like you, are interested in this windows.
I think to understand that the windows may be remade by someone else in a special plastic.
I'll keep your name as a potential buyer, if we can start the minimum production of 20 pairs for keeping the offered price.

Cheers.
Roberto.

[mogul_x]

Roberto,

I would be interested in a set of glass windows, but would want some assurance that they would fit a Hawk replica before I ordered a pair. If we can confirm that they fit prior to placing an order, I'd add my name to the list.

[roberto cassett]

Roberto,

I would be interested in a set of glass windows, but would want some assurance that they would fit a Hawk replica before I ordered a pair. If we can confirm that they fit prior to placing an order, I'd add my name to the list.
Hi,

thanks for your interest in the windows.

The windows will be reproduced with original STRATOS specifications.
I can give you all the sizes and position of the holes but have not idea if they'd fit on HAWK cars.
Sorry.
Will keep your name in the list of 20+ sets hoping that we'll reach this quantity.

Cheers.
Roberto.

[guy mayers]

Hi Roberto, if it will help I can make a paper template of the Hawk side windows and post them to you to compare with your original spares. Please PM me your address and I'll sort it out next week.
Guy

[roberto cassett]

Hi Roberto, if it will help I can make a paper template of the Hawk side windows and post them to you to compare with your original spares. Please PM me your address and I'll sort it out next week.
Guy
Hi Guy,

sorry for delay in my reply.

My address:

Roberto Cassetta.
V. G. Reiss Romoli 64/10.
I-10148 Torino.

Looking forward to receive your parcel.

[guy mayers]

Hi Roberto, there is a parcel on it's way on it's way to you right now with patterns for both side windows for you to compare to the originals! No comments on my taste in wallpaper please!
Cheers
Guy

[vfx]

Count me in too for a set of windows. Pricing gets better with more of us (if I'm not too late).


Eric

[roberto cassett]

Hi Roberto, there is a parcel on it's way on it's way to you right now with patterns for both side windows for you to compare to the originals! No comments on my taste in wallpaper please!
Cheers
Guy
Hi guy, finally your template arrived.
I've compared it with original windows and it matches, so the replica windows were made using original windows as model.
I saw there's another person interested in a set.
I think we're still a little far from the 20 pairs but keep on trying....

This message can be read by sensible persons so I'll avoid to comment your taste in wallpaper.......

Just a joke.

Ciao.
Roberto.

[chris.richard]

So that means the glass windows are the right shape, curvature, and hole position to fit a Hawk exactly?

[mogul_x]

Shape and hole position, maybe. I don't think it's possible to confirm the curvature with a paper template.

[BAS]

Shape and hole position, maybe. I don't think it's possible to confirm the curvature with a paper template.

You can if you unwrap it very very carefully. :D

Joking aside that is a good point. I think I would like to see an original side glass or one of the reproductions to compare with the Hawk window before committing.

[guy mayers]

Well, lets think about this. Gerry moulded the car from Roger Perrys Stratos all those years ago. Nothing changed, chassis jigged from the original car at the same time and the new chassis made to match the original one. Then there's the fact that Gerry regularly supplies owners of the original cars with bodywork to aid restoration and I'm told he used Roger Perrys side glass to make the moulds for the perspex ones, holes and all.
That's enough for me to "risk" a little cash on a set because I'm 100% sure that, if they fit an original, they'll fit a replica! I guess we might just have to ask Jeff Davidson to fit his single original piece of glass to his car and confirm that it fits?
I'll trawl through this thread again and count the numbers wanting the glass, speak to Gerry to see if he's interested and see where we are going with this. The consortium bank account is still open if/when we need to start collecting money.
Cheers
Guy

[guy mayers]

Ok, after a trawl throuh the thread it looks like the following are the interested parties, if i've included any Allora/CAE/Corse owners please let me know as these won't fit! In no particular order:-
1. Scott McGill
2. Jeff Davidson
3. Myself
4. Gary Robinson
5. Chris Richards
6. Stewart in Australia
7. Panos Panayitou
8. Peter Bennell
9. Reed Herman
10. Nico Alonzi
11. Andy Hamilton
12. Tryphon Georgallides
13. Dave Atkinson
14. Lyndon Hughes
15. Lancia Chris (please excuse me, don't know the real name yet!)
16. Mel Lewis
17. Eric VFX (ditto)

So, if I was to ring each of you up and ask for a £50 deposit how would you react?
If you DON'T want to be part of the consortium please post here.
If you're not listed and want to participate please post here.
If you don't get in on the first run with Roberto you CAN be assured of paying a higher price later AND probably higher shipping charges.
If you are still interested and named above can you PLEASE send me a PM so we don't clog up this thread.

AND CAN WE PLEASE KEEP THIS THREAD OPEN FOR SIDE WINDOWS ONLY! Please start a new one if you want steering wheels or 127 mirrors or anything else.
Thanks
Guy

[tryphon]

Guy, I don't think I will be part of this, sorry. I also don't see why would anyone wish to fit glass windows in the first place...

[strat6v]

Guy, put my name down for a set.

John.

[PANOS]

HI GUY,

You can also count me out, unless I can have mine heavyly tinted...
I am affraid the sun in Cyprus is much too strong for most of the year for clear side windows on the Strato's and that is why I had to fit those silver reflective films on the perspex ones...

CIAO PANOS

[Media]

Finally decided I should invest in glass windows. Could you add my name to the list.

Geraint

[mogul_x]

You can also count me out, unless I can have mine heavyly tinted...
Panos,

Couldn't you have a tinted film put on them, similar to what you did with the perspex windows?

[PANOS]

HI SCOTT,

Unfortunately, due to the curvature of the window tiny air pockets cannot be avoided, which soon begin filling up with moisture... also the window being frameless, they keep rubbing on the body seal when the window or door is opened and closed... you can imagine the rest...
They looked great at the beginning (as you can see from the photos...) and they lowered the temperature at least 15 degrees C, if not more, but they only lasted for about 6 months (enough at least to take me through summer...) before they started looking awful... and they were a pain to take off... (dead easy to put on...).

Had a word with Gerry since and he is willing to have some windows made from darker perspex, if enough people show interest, or if I pay him enough money to cover a whole sheet of perspex...
Decisions... decisions...

CIAO PANOS

[stableblock]

Tinted glass is another option. In another car club we had windscreens made - the big cost as the mould and there was very little difference for small quantities if a few were made from tinted glass. Various grades of tint were available.

I know the originals were plain but the costs of producing a batch of 20 with mixed glass types may only be a few pound more. Worth exploring ?? esp if it attracts more takers.

Peter

[guy mayers]

Panos, if you read Robertos post on page 6 I think, you'll notice that the numbers we need to arrive at don't have to be one type, we can order a mixture of tinted and clear windows so long as we accumulate enough orders.
Guy

[stewart]

Hi Guy,

I keep forgetting to mail you...I am still interested although am a little concerned at possible freight costs.....also interested in having them tinted.

cheers,

[roberto cassett]

I'm agree with Chris, I heard the same story from the poor Roger one time here in Torino.

Roger actually told me to leaved his car to TRANSFORMER CARS for copy parts and I think they copied the windows too.

I've tried again to follow Chris template on the original window and it seems match perfectly, curvature, holes and size.

We seem very close to the 20 pairs required.
I hope we will able to start this production.

Best regards to you all.
Roberto.

[lancia chris]

Any further thoughts on getting some replica steering wheels made as a consortium project? I see it was talked about sometime ago but has it progressed any further

[mogul_x]

I don't think so. The glass project seems to have taken off because Roberto was considering a run of his own at about the same time.

Steering wheels, door mirrors, and front indicator lights have all been mentioned as candidates for reproduction in the past. I think we should add front stub axles to the list, since the world supply of fiat 132's seems to be dwindling. I know there are companies that manufacture forged "drop spindles" for lowering the ride height of cars and trucks here in the 'States. Perhaps one of them could manufacture replacement stub axles for us.

[chris.richard]

Aren't FSO still producing them in Eastern Europe?

[lyndon]

I would also like to see the replica steering wheel made, and as Roberto seems to be handling the side windows maybe we could have a poll as to how many would put their names down,as mentioned previously Gerry said he would inolve himself if there were sufficient interest and a genuine wheel loaned to him in order to make a copy
Lyndon..

[lancia chris]

I would definately put my name down for one of these, subject of course to Gerry getting a price for the project. I also understand he has done some work on this so how many do we need to produce to get this up and running

[mogul_x]

I don't need a replica steering wheel, because I already have an original. I might want a replica steering wheel, because the original seems to have a bastard size mounting bolt PCD. Larger than Momo, smaller than Nardi / Personal.

If an original wheel is needed as a pattern, I'll volunteer mine. I'd suggest making the replica wheels compatible with a "standard" X1/9 hub adapter, or allow the buyer to select an optional bolt pattern, just as we did on the coffin spoke wheels.

[Chris J]

Scott

Mounting hole arrangement needs to be turned through 30 degrees from a normal MOMO drilling (same circle size though so's it fits the hub)

The original wheel is a Ferrero isn't it?

[mogul_x]

Chris,

The wheel is a Ferrero - it's stamped on one of the spokes, I think.

But it's definitely NOT a Momo hole pattern. The PCD is one or two millimeters off. I have a Momo adapter, and a Jet adapter that's drilled for both Momo and Nardi wheels. Neither fits the Stratos wheel.

The hole in the center of the hub is also much larger on the Stratos wheel than the Momo adapter. A Momo horn button barely covers it.

It's possible that the wheel I have was modified for some reason, or perhaps didn't come off of a Stratos. Jeff Davison also bought a Stratos steering wheel, and his came with a bespoke hub adapter. Otherwise, I believe it was identical to mine.

[Chris J]

Yes, I meant the NEW wheel would have to have the same size circle drilling to a MOMO but not with the fixing holes in the same position (two screws level at the top instead of one on it's own).

I had a Ferrero steering wheel once, so I know about the larger hole in the centre and the non standard fixing holes.

[mogul_x]

Chris,

Sorry, I misunderstood you. I thought you meant that the Ferrero pattern was the same size, but rotated 30 degrees. My goof.

While on the subject of the center hole... Should we look into a run of horn buttons as well? Momo buttons with a Lancia logo seem a little hard to find, and Lancia Shield logo I've seen on Momo horn buttons is different than the one used on the Stratos horn button, I think.

[guy mayers]

Roberto Cassetta has remade the horn button but given that it will only fit an original wheel I think we'd have to reinvent that first! Guess it might be an amalgam of Momo hub bolt pattern and new horn push...
I'm not convinced we are going to get enough people for the glass side windows, Although we are at/near 20 interested parties the price differential is too much for those who have expressed an interest, we needed 50 sets to get the right price so I think we will have to consider this one to be a non starter for now.
Next?

[Chris J]

Scott

I thought Roberto Casetta had some original style horn buttons made? I might be wrong?

I don't know if you've made an adaptor for your original wheel, but it could incorporate a ring to fit inside and sleeve down the centre of the steering wheel and have 12 holes drilled. 6 of them on the MOMO circle, 6 of them countersunk on the Ferrero circle?

Sorry if you've thought of this already?

[mogul_x]

Chris,

I had thought of something along those lines for an adapter ring. Wasn't sure if I was going to pursue it, or go with something a little different. I had another idea that involved machining a Fiat 124 Hub down to the splined bit with the horn contacts, then bolting that to a larger adapter machined to look outwardly like the Stratos setup. This could also allow fitment of one of Roberto's horn buttons, if available.

When I suggested a new run of horn buttons, I meant a correct looking badge to fit a Momo horn button, assuming our replica wheel would be built around Momo hub adapters.

[tryphon]

If the consortium is going to make steering wheels why not remake the hub too so that it's identical to the original?

[mogul_x]

Good idea. Not sure how hard (or expensive) it would be to cut the correct spline on the adapter, though.

[Chris J]

Scott

Sorry, I knew you meant a horn button with the "Lancia" word logo to fit a MOMO sized hole.

MOMO must have made SO many different horn buttons over the years?

[Swamprat33]

Hi, would it be possible to produce a replica steering wheel that would be compatible with a manufacture like Momo. That way all you would need is the correct boss or hub to fit either a Hawk using Fiat/Lancia collumn or a Corse using the Alfa collumn.

Just an idea, but wanted to suggest it at this stage feore the deal is finalised.
Cheers
Tim

[strat6v]

Does having our own made sound feasible?

[guy mayers]

I don't really think this is a viable one. Product liability insurance might just be a little obstacle plus you may find copyright infringement issues courtesy of Hi Spec if the design looks anything like theirs. For that reason alone I don't think we should get involved.
Guy